Warhammer Fantasy: Divided Loyalties - an Advisor's Quest

[deathofrats0808]

As far as stage of life goes, theres two scenarios, firstly where it is able to fully destroy any future magical talent this was a possibility when Mandred was first identified as a possible mage in 2488 age 7 ish. And the second stage is when its too late for that, they will still retain magical abilities if they take off the supressors which seems to have been the situation for Eike's age 11.
These are pretty different scenarios and it seems that Mandred has already passed the age where we can smother his talent and he won't be considered a walking artillery piece by the law.
I'm happy to agree that Dampners will work the same on a 10 and 11 year old, which is what I was replying to at the time. I'm happy to accept that Dampners will work the same on a 10 and 15 year old, which is the scenario I'm trying to discuss. However someone needs to point me to some evidence that it would work the same on a 7 and 10 year old because stamping out the magical ability was raised as a possibility specifically because Mandred was so young but it wasn't mentioned for Eike, and I think this is the scenario some people are implying or assuming.

If you want me to rewind all the way back out to examine my preexisting unspoken beliefs. I entered this conversation under the impression that there wasn't really a way to quit being a wizard, and that if you decided you didn't want to be then your future career plans were basically find a mundane job to do around the college because the only ways out were pacification or exile. You know, since the empire basically just considers wizards to be military assets before all else and thats not something you can really turn off (unless the suppressors are applied at a very early age).

However people seemed to be pretty confident that there was a way, and this was done regularly.
I've not been trying to argue that's wrong, enough people seem to believe it that I'm happy to assume that I'm wrong. I'm just trying to get someone to clarify where I've misunderstood things. Because given the empires culture I have a hard time understanding it.

When I said


I wasn't being hypothetical.
But given the empires magophobic attitude and the implicit assumption that wizards are weapons first and humans second, these were just the first solutions that I could see to the fundamental issue that at the point where the college would apply suppressors, its too late to prevent the suppressed individual from developing magical talent is mitigated and thus will always be a potentially dangerous military asset.
If there are others, or it is different, I would be

Click to shrink...

So I'm unsure you can ever stamp out magic like that. I don't think it was ever brought up as an option. That aside, people can absolutely stop being a member of the Colleges:

Some are given magical dampeners and allowed to return to their former lives

Click to shrink...

Or if you really want, I can write a letter and get you a full set of dampeners, and you can go back to Middenland and do whatever it is Middenlander nobles do, or go to Ulrikadrin and join the Winter Wolves, or stick around and join the Undumgi.

Click to shrink...

Those are Dampeners. The Colleges do their best to convince those with talent to stick with the Colleges, and considering there's nothing stopping a reluctant Wizard from stopping at Perpetual Apprentice and having a guaranteed decently-paying and mostly-mundane job for life with slim to no chance of exploding into demons, they're usually successful. But those that really want out will be trained up enough that they're able to prevent themselves from accidentally or unknowingly channelling magic, given Dampeners to wear to block them off from their Windsight, and allowed to return to the wider world.

Click to shrink...

Boney's been pretty clear on it. They're probably watched more closely than others, but leaving the Colleges can and does happen.

Frankly, a strong concern of mine is actually that Mandred needs us there to stop him from becoming a genuine megalomaniac.

Plenty of fantasy rulers have a court wizard, but this is leaps and bounds past that. Imagine if the Prince of England could point in the direction of any problem and say 'someone magic that away' and have the houses of Hogwarts fighting each other for the chance to be the one to curry favor by doing so.

After Elfcation and the Waystone Project wraps, I'll tell you right now that I'll be swinging hard for us as Mandred's spymaster/boogiewoman godmother for the next arc.

Click to shrink...

How's that any different from ghe ability of a non-magical EC/Emperor to do that? Like, Dieter doing that kind of thing is exactly what caused the Night of a Thousand Arcane Duels. He stirred shit up among the Colleges because it amused him, which worked because he was the EMperor and his favour was valuable. Mandred being a Wizard himself is more likely to cause trouble by him siding with his College aganst the others in their internal politics, rather than his ability to order them around (assuming he becomes Emperor, which seems unlielly to me)

As Lord of the Rings states: The hands of the king are the hands of a healer. And so the rightful king could ever be known.

I'm sure Tolkien was being entirely literal there and Jade Mandred would be crowned emperor with no repercussions

Click to shrink...

I mean, Tolkien was being literal, because it was a prophecy about Aragorn.

Nah, King ≠ Emperor.

It is also rather funny how Teclis just like;

Spoiler: Pics

Click to shrink...

People really seem to like to say this proves Teclis is bad at diplomacy, when if anything it proves he has middling diplomacy and Thorgrim is just a dick.

 

[NexusEye]

The cult of Verena isn't centralized, each faction is separate and does their own thing. The Nuln Verenans are pissed at us but we already got all their books so the most they can do is mutter mean words about us. The other groups we can fairly easily get on side, the Lorekeepers by presenting to them their dream library, one that is enormous, continually expanding, and incredibly well defended, and the Scrollbearers by offering quid pro quo book deals with them using our enormous catalogue. The amount of carrot we can offer them is enormous, I sincerely doubt the opinion of the Nuln Verenans will be more than a minor bump in the road in our interactions with other Verenan groups.

 

[Dark as Silver]

No, the issue is that you haven't read the quest you're commenting on, you know where Mathilde explicitly says that the Bright College focuses on using Aqshy for brute force and magical artillery.



Yeah, Mandred could become a Bright Wizard that focuses on the emotional side of Aqshy instead of blowing shit up, but Mathilde has no way of deciding what part of Aqshy Mandred focuses on, and given that the Bright College explicitly focuses on blowing shit up, and that the vast majority of the Bright Magic spellbook used by the Bright College is "blow shit up" spells, it's much more likely that if Mathilde influences the panel to put him into the Bright College he will become a wizard focused on blowing shit up.

Click to shrink...

To be fair, Bright Lord Magisters are awe inspiring leaders of men, in every possible connotation of the word.



Yeah, no, he is right. People keep mentioning the Cathay side of things, about how lore of fire there means something else. Not only is that not applicable to whatever Bright College has to teach, one has to also remember that the Colleges are not academic institution by heart. They behave that way, but they were founded for one purpose only, to train battle capable magickers to stem the tide of chaos. Other colleges may act as if this is no longer true and they can devote themselves to academia unless everchosen is marching, but i really doubt that Brights in general of all people cleaved far from the original purpose.

Teclis taught war wizards and little else. That has an emotional application, its right there in the spell list, but thats also the sum total of its ability to do so.

Click to shrink...

Behold the guys who only know fireball using careful judgement and knowledge of non fireball spells.

He reaches into his robes and produces an unadorned steel semi-circle - a torc, similar to that worn by the men of Sigmar's time. "I understand you have been knighted," he says. "A position of a leader and a warrior both. As such, I would grant to you this torc. It contains the essence of the spell known to us as Crown of Fire, which will make you inspiring to your allies and intimidating to your foes." He smiles. "More so than you are already, I mean."

Click to shrink...

Most Bright Wizards may lean into the fire, but lets be clear even if its something like a 70/30 split, the the emotional ashyq isn't a lost art.

So I'm unsure you can ever stamp out magic like that. I don't think it was ever brought up as an option. That aside, people can absolutely stop being a member of the Colleges:
Boney's been pretty clear on it. They're probably watched more closely than others, but leaving the Colleges can and does happen.

Click to shrink...

Sure so here's the Wog that it was possible to stamp out magic

Having been discovered so early, it would be possible to completely stamp out the capability in him before he even realizes it's there, which would mean he wouldn't be tempted to remove the dampeners and dabble with the ability.

Click to shrink...

And Yeah as I said, I'm happy to accept I am wrong. I was asking how the issues I could foresee were mitigated. Those Boney quotes are great for showing that I was wrong. Since they do nothing to say about how the colleges reassure paranoid witch hunters that those suppressed ex-mages can't take off their dampeners and become Black Magisters as they feel like, I assume that Boney just hasn't made a statement on that?

 

[deathofrats0808]

Sure so here's the Wog that it was possible to stamp out magic

And Yeah as I said, I'm happy to accept I am wrong. I was asking how the issues I could foresee were mitigated. Those Boney quotes are great for showing that I was wrong. Since they do nothing to say about how the colleges reassure paranoid witch hunters that those suppressed ex-mages can't take off their dampeners and become Black Magisters as they feel like, I assume that Boney just hasn't made a statement on that?

Click to shrink...

I am unaware of any such WoG, yeah (although the thread Loremasers may be able to track something down) but honestly, I'd guess there's only a very small number of people like this that catually leave the Colleges, and they are in fact watched more closely. We know paranoid Witch Hunters don't just kill them all, so either whatever the precautions the Colleges take are considered enough (personally, if you're at that point, the logical first thing to do would be make it exceedingly diffcult to remove the dampeners at all) or the Wicth Hunters don't have the authority/manpwoer (which are both issues pretty often brought up with institutions in the Empire).

 

[Artemis1992]

For me the likely personality-traits imparted by getting in tune with your Wind are kinda more important than the actual spells.

Mandred will be an Elector Count, he can outsource any magic he actually needs for matters of state or war.

But making him inspiring, if temperamental seems to be a good match for his existing skills and a good match for being an Elector-Count in a world of near-constant wars and crises.

Being emotionally detached, either in the Golden or in the Celestial way, on the other hand can work too, but would play better to someone who is really into economics or learning?

 

[DragonParadox]

Behold the guys who only know fireball using careful judgement and knowledge of non fireball spells.
And Yeah as I said, I'm happy to accept I am wrong. I was asking how the issues I could foresee were mitigated. Those Boney quotes are great for showing that I was wrong. Since they do nothing to say about how the colleges reassure paranoid witch hunters that those suppressed ex-mages can't take off their dampeners and become Black Magisters as they feel like, I assume that Boney just hasn't made a statement on that?

Click to shrink...

I suspect it is less reassurance and more veiled threats of violence. The colleges have a vested interest in people with a magical gift, even those who do not want to become wizards not getting killed for having the gift and the Sealed are within the letter of the Articles, they do not use magic. So any witch hunter coming to Altdorf to mess with them is firmly in the sights of the people who can and will turn reality inside out for fun and profit.

 

[Valmond]

If Mandred does become a bright wizard, and actually delves into it, it might be interesting to see what kind of insights or spells he would come up with from being a wizard and a ruler.

 

[DeadmanwalkingXI]

But making him inspiring, if temperamental seems to be a good match for his existing skills and a good match for being an Elector-Count in a world of near-constant wars and crises.

Click to shrink...

The thing is, being a Bright might actually make him less inspiring. Like...they have one very low end spell that does inspiration and three different Arcane Marks that give Diplomacy penalties (on top of the ones that give anger issues). Meanwhile, a Light or Celestial wizard has a lot more different ways to improve his abilities to be inspiring with far fewer down sides (both have only a single Arcane Mark that reduces Diplomacy and much better buff spells for inspiring people).

 

[Nerdasaurus Rex]

People really seem to like to say this proves Teclis is bad at diplomacy, when if anything it proves he has middling diplomacy and Thorgrim is just a dick.

Click to shrink...

Whilst Thorgrim did overreact to the "short" thing, Teclis really did mess up there. First, he interrupted the Emperor to essentially say "and with the elves telling you what to do, you can't lose". Thorgrim then points out that Teclis shouldn't be telling anyone to do, because he's not a King, and everyone else is. What authority does he has that lets him tell the leaders of other nations what to do?

Teclis' response to this is to scold Thorgrim like a naughty schoolboy. He might as well as said "don't he an idiot, obviously you need me to tell you what to do", but CA wanted to go for the short joke.

 

[Tasoli]

People really seem to like to say this proves Teclis is bad at diplomacy, when if anything it proves he has middling diplomacy and Thorgrim is just a dick.

Click to shrink...

Thorgrim is being a dick because Teclis seem to have show up to a meeting of kings without even securing support of Ulthan and then just starts talking down to people there. There is some casual arrogance right there to presume you can just talk like that out of turn.

Diplomatically Teclis either had to keep quiet or had to have secured ambassador title beforehand. Having done neither he is indeed bad at diplomacy not because he lacks personal charisma (he is mid as you said) but because he doesn't do his due dilligance or nows his audance.

 

[Boney]

Since they do nothing to say about how the colleges reassure paranoid witch hunters that those suppressed ex-mages can't take off their dampeners and become Black Magisters as they feel like, I assume that Boney just hasn't made a statement on that?

Click to shrink...

The question is built on a faulty premise. College Wizards, which the Sealed still technically are, do not need the permission of Witch Hunters to continue existing, so the Colleges feel absolutely no need to make reassurances to anyone. The way Colleges prevent Witch Hunters from murdering any Wizard just for having the potential to be a Black Magister is by hunting down and executing any Witch Hunters that do so.

 

[pucflek]

There is probably a couple of noir-lite duos of Wizard and a Witch Hunter (for legitimacy and because reasonable witch hunters are also so done with that zealot shit that makes getting heavy hitter support against actual threats harder) that shank any rogue agents like its a goddamn police show about rooting out corruption from the department.

 

[deathofrats0808]

Whilst Thorgrim did overreact to the "short" thing, Teclis really did mess up there. First, he interrupted the Emperor to essentially say "and with the elves telling you what to do, you can't lose". Thorgrim then points out that Teclis shouldn't be telling anyone to do, because he's not a King, and everyone else is. What authority does he has that lets him tell the leaders of other nations what to do?

Teclis' response to this is to scold Thorgrim like a naughty schoolboy. He might as well as said "don't he an idiot, obviously you need me to tell you what to do", but CA wanted to go for the short joke.

Click to shrink...

So a) Teclis doesn't interrupt Karl, b) Teclis is at minimum, the equivalent of an Elector Count so he's absolutely got the standing to be speaking up. Yeah, he messes up in the presumption of 'Asur guidance' but that's not "Teclis is bad at diplomacy" it's "the Asur presume themselves to be leaders of the world" (I'd actually argue Teclis making this mistake is out of character. He's certainly not free of the belief the Asur are better than everyone else, but the way he expresses it here comes off wrong IMO). Further, Thorgrim takes that statement as a sign the Asur are planning to screw everyone over based on no evidence whatsoever and then flat out delcares he'll never make an alliance with the Elves.

Thorgrim is being a dick because Teclis seem to have show up to a meeting of kings without even securing support of Ulthan and then just starts talking down to people there. There is some casual arrogance right there to presume you can just talk like that out of turn.

Diplomatically Teclis either had to keep quiet or had to have secured ambassador title beforehand. Having done neither he is indeed bad at diplomacy not because he lacks personal charisma (he is mid as you said) but because he doesn't do his due dilligance or nows his audance.

Click to shrink...

I'd actually argue that the way Teclis is usually written he's the opposite. Guy's a prick, but he plays power politics very well in most Warhammer. It's another way he contrasts with Tyrion, who is charming and likeable, but hotheaded and somewhat poor at wielding power as anything other than a blunt tool (he's explicitly called out as being "no politician" in the 8th ed army book, and his reaction to being insulted is to fight a duel to the death with the insulter (which is what said person wants, because they're part of a conspiracy to destroy the descendants of Aenarion so they can't draw the Widowmaker)).

 

[pucflek]

Teclis is at minimum, the equivalent of an Elector Count so he's absolutely got the standing to be speaking up.

Click to shrink...

He´s not.

The whole thing is pretty much the reference to the fact that Asur focused their whole attention on dealing with Druuchi invasion and the sum total of their help was Teclis actually going "nah fuck this, the Old World actually is important" and took an unsanctioned vacation.

He absolutely does not speak for Finubar Seafarer, and Thorgrim is right to call him out for it, because everyone else actually does speak for their people, but Teclis does not, he speaks for himself and whoever he manages to drag with himself this time. (He is also absolutely the sort of person that would choose "Short sighted" on purpose)

That Thorgrim reacts the way he reacts is of course also too much, granted. No reason to fuck over the entire possible Alliance just because an elf is calling you names.

 

[deathofrats0808]

He´s not.

The whole thing is pretty much the reference to the fact that Asur focused their whole attention on dealing with Druuchi invasion and the sum total of their help was Teclis actually going "nah fuck this, the Old World actually is important" and took an unsanctioned vacation.

He absolutely does not speak for Finubar Seafarer.

Click to shrink...

There isn't a Drucchi invasion, this isn't the Great War. And Teclis is the High Loremaster of Hoeth, literally the leader of Ulthuan's mages, secret police and (at the very least by implication) ruler of Saphery as a whole. He's absolutely an EC equivalent.

 

[pucflek]

There isn't a Drucchi invasion, this isn't the Great War. And Teclis is the High Loremaster of Hoeth, literally the leader of Ulthuan's mages, secret police and (at the very least by implication) ruler of Saphery as a whole. He's absolutely an EC equivalent.

Click to shrink...

Its arguably worse, since its the Endtimes. The implication that he is off doing whatever he wants again is pretty strong, all the more so for the fact that he does not deny it.

 

[deathofrats0808]

Its arguably worse, since its the Endtimes. The implication that he is off doing whatever he wants again is pretty strong, all the more so for the fact that he does not deny it.

Click to shrink...

There's a half dozen Elven Princes behind him.

 

[Sparsebeard]

Ulgu as such is pretty solid for a ruler in a lot of ways. The Grey College's reputation, however, is not conducive to successful or steady rule. It's unfortunate, and societal rather than a limitation of the Wind, but it's true nonetheless.

Click to shrink...

I think the grey order's reputation is probably on overstated problem. Realisticly, to your enemies, there is not much difference between employing a Grey Wizard or being one yourself.

Sure other rulers are going to be perhaps somewhat more wary around a Grey Wizard Count. But rulers are already often paranoid of their peers regardless and I don't think it's something that a deft diplomatic hand can't mitigate. As for rumors amongst the populace, who else than a grey wizard is more qualified to deal with those?

 

[Valmond]

I think the grey order's reputation is probably on overstated problem. Realisticly, to your enemies, there is not much difference between employing a Grey Wizard or being one yourself.

Sure other rulers are going to be perhaps somewhat more wary around a Grey Wizard Count. But rulers are already often paranoid of their peers regardless and I don't think it's something that a deft diplomatic hand can't mitigate. As for rumors amongst the populace, who else than a grey wizard is more qualified to deal with those?

Click to shrink...

It is not your enemies you need to worry about, but your allies and neutral parties.
Grey Wizards are feared and respected, but the respect is largely based on them being apart from politics, and that fear would be hindrance to governing.
And having to deal with rumors takes time, time better spent on almost anything else if it can be avoided.

Also, electors counts generally do not employ grey wizards to deal with their peers.
Yes, sometimes they do, when there is a rat or vampire problem that needs dealing with, but largely Grey Wizards are expected to stand apart from internal politics unless things have gone really bad.

 

[Deathbybunnies]

The Grey Order's ban on participating in the internal politics of the Empire would have to be explicitly waived for Manfred, which is already a drawback.

It's just not a good fit.

 

[Chopak]

@Boney I'm not quite sure how the deal for the "restricted" books we get from Library of Mournings work in practice? Are we allowed to do anything with the books we get? Share them (in other book or monetary deals) with anyone? Or are elves expecting us to only share it with the "worthy"?

 

[Mopman43]

I think the grey order's reputation is probably on overstated problem. Realisticly, to your enemies, there is not much difference between employing a Grey Wizard or being one yourself.

Sure other rulers are going to be perhaps somewhat more wary around a Grey Wizard Count. But rulers are already often paranoid of their peers regardless and I don't think it's something that a deft diplomatic hand can't mitigate. As for rumors amongst the populace, who else than a grey wizard is more qualified to deal with those?

Click to shrink...

The main issue is that the Nobility is rather afraid of the Grey Order, because the Grey Order is all about knowing secrets and every Noble family has a whole closet full of skeletons.

He does have to be able to work with the nobles of Reikland.

 

[Thomasfoolery]

@Boney I'm not quite sure how the deal for the "restricted" books we get from Library of Mournings work in practice? Are we allowed to do anything with the books we get? Share them (in other book or monetary deals) with anyone? Or are elves expecting us to only share it with the "worthy"?

Click to shrink...

3. If we copy their library, do we have the license to share them with others without consulting the Eonir?

Click to shrink...

3. Not explicitly, but it wouldn't have been forbidden either.

Click to shrink...

Regarding sharing in general while it's somewhat fuzzy I think the section outlines the general guideline pretty well, if the entity you got the books from makes it known they feel betrayed by the way you handled that knowledge, you're less likely to get future takers.

You make sure these tomes are kept locked away in secure and reinforced compartments and make sure the library's index has it recorded that only Ulric's priesthood can access them without seeking dispensation. All knowledge being freely available sounds like a nice sentiment and you might not have a personal stake in keeping Ulric's secrets, but these would be the last books on a sensitive topic you're ever able to get your hands on if you start spilling divine secrets to anyone that wanders in the door.

Click to shrink...

 

[Shard]

Winds by Arcane Mark Problematicness (for a count)

Amber: Basically everything
Amethyst: A lot of things
Bright: Temper & Raging Temper (+Aura of Brimstone)
Celestial: Scentless & Visions
Jade: Bound to Season, Metal Revulsion
Light: Arrogant, Paranoid, (+Eureka)
Gold: Leaden Tongue
Shadow: Trickester, Forgettable

Gold actually has a surprisingly not-bad series of arcane marks. Jade has annoying arcane marks but fortunately not behavior ones. Celestial and Shadow both have annoying but manageable behaviour arcane marks. Light and Bright have concerning behaviour - affecting arcane marks. Amethyst and Amber are just right out.

 

[Jreengus]

The main issue is that the Nobility is rather afraid of the Grey Order, because the Grey Order is all about knowing secrets and every Noble family has a whole closet full of skeletons.

He does have to be able to work with the nobles of Reikland.

Click to shrink...

I don't really get how this would stop him from working with the nobles. Pretend you're the head of a noble house and your new EC is a grey wizard, are you going to be an obstructionist shit with the guy you're afraid has both the knowledge necessary to damn you and the authority to execute you or are you going to suck up to him and be as helpful as possible in the hope he'll overlook your indescretions?

I know I'd go for the second option.