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Warhammer Fantasy: Divided Loyalties - an Advisor's Quest

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ChronOblivion said:
Honestly I'm a tad concerned about bias here, I am not particularly invested in Mandred being Grey, so I would prefer to avoid even the appearance of putting a finger on that scale.
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I'm not either, but in Renaissance times patronage and connections were the norm, and not seen as a bad thing.

Also, it's quite probable that every other Wizard there is going to be arguing for their own College for the political benefits, and as Mandred's Godmother we'd be the only one arguing for what's actually best for Mandred.
 
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I'm still against the idea of going to Ulthuan next turn. I think it's a bit of an awkward time narratively to do that. We'll be plopping down the first few waystones somewhere and revealing the Orbs (if we don't do it this social turn) - proceeding to fuck off to kill a particular group of elves for three months feels a bit off.

But more relevantly to the current vote, I'm absolutely going to go with Trade Goods, because it feels like the right long-term move for the EIC, and the thing I'd look forward to for the Elfcation is punching Druchii in the face, not going shopping.
 
I'd like to do both Mandred ones because it makes Mandred more of a part of the story.

Even if he doesn't go to the Grey College- and I don't think it'd necessarily be the best choice for him in a vacuum- I'd still like to see the scene.
 
I think the EIC option for the payment would be the most advantageous tbh. Also like... Vow of poverty.

For our interactions I'm definitely voting for whichever plan has double Mandred. Dooming + Wizard council. Honestly, we're his godmother, I feel like it's kinda... Our responsibility? Plus, a Grey Wizard elector count would be hilarious. Or imagine if he goes to the Order of Life. Imagine what it'd do to their internal politics.
 
Boney said:
To most people in the Empire, 'Ithilmar' is known for the substance that makes up some of the rarest and most precious relics on the continent. Tales speak of chainmail harder than steel and lighter than silk, of blades as fast as a rapier that stay straight and sharp long after a greatsword would be bent and blunted. A scant handful of examples can be found in the hands of some of the oldest families and greatest warriors, some gifted from the Elves of Marienburg to the very few in the Old World that have gained their respect, some taken from Norscan Reavers who have dared to target the ships or even the shores of the Phoenix King, some salvaged from some forgotten battlefield long ago when the ancestors of the Empire first arrived in the Reik basin.
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Ithilmar has one hell of a reputation.

Boney said:
You, Eike, and the Hochlander spend a week making plans, mapping out the various institutions and individuals that habitually accrete the oddities of the world and spreading instructions through the EIC to seek out and acquire fragments from every corner of the Empire that they reach, leaving the likely hotspots to the three of you. Talabheim is the greatest of these as it is veritably riddled with 'Draconic' relics, explained by the locals as the crater being formed by Taal slamming the defeated Dragon into the earth and more prosaically as it once being the city of Athel Maraya. The Hochlander is the natural choice for starting there, and then move north along the chain of Elven outposts that survive as Waystone Nexuses in Hochland and western Ostland. That leaves three other major sources: Altdorf, once the city of Kor Vanaeth and currently the city that keeps building new museums to replace the ones that keep getting razed by angry Nehekharans. Nuln, once Kazad Kro and currently a city riddled with colleges, universities, and foundries, all of which would be filled with people likely to find interest in fragments of Elf-metal. And Kislev City, once the city of Athel Numiel and in modern times no slouch when it comes to museums and colleges.
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Makes sense most people wouldn't be able to properly identify it and it would be treated as a mythologized oddity.

Boney said:
Even in Tor Lithanel, protocol and precedent gives way to sufficiently valuable matters of practicality. That day you find yourself meeting with Queen Marrisith, Councillor Galrith of House Miriel, and Lord Turuquar of the Grey Lords. The Queen has quite a job on her hands prying the other two away from a box of fragments of millennia-old arms and armour, but eventually they confirm that all of the fragments are Ithilmar and are of very direct use to them, as though the smelting of entirely new Ithilmar objects requires the fires of Vaul's Anvil and the expertise of its attendants from the Order of Vaul, repairs to already-existing objects is within the capabilities of the greatest of Laurelorn's artisans.
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The crafting people are estatic to have materials.

Boney said:
The Queen gets right down to business, and the offer she gives you tests your unflappable facade. You'd bought the famously light Ithilmar for its weight in gold, and you're being offered its volume in gold. According to your mental abacus, this equates to a lot of money. You string together enough thoughts to vaguely consider haggling, but though Queen Marrisith is young for an Elven Queen, that still means centuries of life experience to your mere few decades, so you simply accept. That's still a staggering fivefold return on your initial investment.
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Smart of Mathilde not to haggle since she's really outclassed there. Also the Vow of Poverty once again weeps.

Boney said:
Which is a problem in itself, you discover as the negotiations move on to a hitherto unknown phase. Dwarves might habitually sit on seemingly bottomless vaults of precious metals, but Elven wealth tends to be more ephemeral. While Tor Lithanel is a wealthy city, the wealth in solid coinage is out there going from purse to purse, rather than waiting around for its Queen to make use of it. And while steps have been made to adapt Laurelorn's economy for coexisting with that of the Empire, none of those steps had been preparing the city for tens of thousands of crowns to be gathered up by the crown and vanished into the pocket of a foreign mage. Even if the objections of those currently holding the coins can be mollified, that much coinage disappearing from circulation overnight would be bound to cause some sort of turmoil.
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Makes senses they have a different way of valuing things so their definition of wealth would be different.

Boney said:
"So in either case we get a type of Athel Loren plant, which would have seeds that are either natural power stones or potion gourds?" She nods. "In either case, that seems more valuable than having a single potion-equivalent of unknown effect that we can't reverse-engineer."
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Boney said:
The next day the tree is twice as tall, and the day after it grows by the same amount again. You run the numbers and start to get concerned, but thankfully the vertical growth slows as it starts growing outwards instead, additional trunks of the same tree growing out of the base. The refrain between you and Panoramia of 'at some point, it has to stop growing' sounds less and less sure every time it is said, as locals of all species start to turn curious but unconcerned eyes towards the giant tree growing in the centre of the Karak and casting its shade over more and more acres. At some point the enchantment dissipates, but it leaves behind what you believe to be proof of Panoramia's suspicion that it wasn't just helping it grow, as the tree draws in ambient Ghyran from the air and pumps it down to its roots. The amount of magic involved is less than even the meanest Waystone tributary you've seen, but it's a great deal for a single plant to hold. Not only does it fuel its unnaturally swift growth, it also seeps out into the land beneath its shadow, and the hardy shrubbery that had once covered the soil gives way to lush grasses and wildflowers.
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Okay holy shit the nut turned out to be a really bullshit plant.

Boney said:
Until the tree reaches whatever height it believes to be sufficient for it to start putting resources towards reproducing, there's nothing here to study. So instead you put your time towards teaching Panoramia the subtle art of acting mysterious and smug when someone asks questions you don't actually have the answers for, and before long all of Karak Eight Peaks believes that she somehow deliberately created a giant tree as a centerpiece of the inner Karak - possibly as an aid to her future plans of turning the central caldera into grazelands, possibly just to show off.
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Good on Mathilde for teaching Panoramia proper Wizard etiquette of smugness and mysteriousness.
 
Honestly, I'd say even for people who don't want Mandred in the Greys it's a good thing for Mathilde to be there, otherwise whoever ends up representing the Greys instead might make the argument that he should be with them. I would like to trust that other Greys would be just as politically smart as the thread, if not better, but it is trusting someone we have no control over, and don't even know who it would be for sure.

Basically, if you have a strong opinion about where he goes, no matter what that opinion is, it's probably best to be there to make that case.
 
Ericwinter said:
Honestly, I'd say even for people who don't want Mandred in the Greys it's a good thing for Mathilde to be there, otherwise whoever ends up representing the Greys instead might make the argument that he should be with them. I would like to trust that other Greys would be just as politically smart as the thread, if not better, but it is trusting someone we have no control over, and don't even know who it would be for sure.

Basically, if you have a strong opinion about where he goes, no matter what that opinion is, it's probably best to be there to make that case.
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It would probably be Starke, if it wasn't us. He's the most important Grey Wizard that isn't Algard, retired, or compromised in some way.

And Starke would definitely push for Mandred to join the greys for political reasons.
 
[ ] Initiate
For the first time, a child born in Karag Nar has shown a capability of using magic. It is the duty of a Wizard to ascertain their suitability to join one of the Orders of Magic.

#1 priority, fuck everything else.

Boney said:
If all goes well, I predict in a decade or so, any Undumgi child that manifests magic will be much more likely to result in exuberant parents banging on mathilde's front door, rather than a pyre.
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It's finally happening.
 
Boney said:
But then you remember you know someone who grew up in a trading family in Kislev City, and all the possible downsides of sending Eike east evaporate, so you send Eike to Kislev City with Zlata.
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Who at this point is just happy to be included.

the only lesson to be learned from the endeavour was how much she enjoyed dashing about the city's streets atop half a ton of compact and ill-tempered Kislevite warhorse.
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Probably want to teach her Shadowsteed soon.

it is with the full knowledge that invisibility or teleportation is never more than an effort of will away.
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To say nothing of an artefact grade sword. Failing stealth has a different meaning when you can reasonably expect to hack and slash your way to the objective even if discovered.

Panoramia nut
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Nice wholesome science. Also good to see she is more self-confident and relaxed. Wonder if it is a result of her having been promoted and thus having already faced what she was dreading, or of the perspective that comes from teaching an apprentice.

Tempted to campaign for a 'cute wizards doing cute things' tag at this point. Or should that be smug?

as locals of all species start to turn curious but unconcerned eyes
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It is so very heartening that the inhabitants of Mathilde's adopted home trust wizards to safely deal with magic shenanigans. In most of the Reik Empire we would be fending off mobs with pitchforks axes and torches by now.
Which would be a right tragedy as that is almost certainly a juvenile Oak (Chestnut?) of Ages.


[ ] [ITHILMAR] Trade Goods
Long-term income over a one-time influx. Also not having to visit the Bursar with a wheelbarrow. Again.

Must have socials:
[ ] Initiate
That is Mathilde's mountain and all magic users within it are hers to claim and nurture.

[ ] Dooming and Quickening
Mathilde is the magic godmother. She has duties to perform.

Really want socials:
[ ] Witch Hunter
She might be a graduate dropout but Gretel is still one of Mathilde's ducklings. And messing with a Witchhunter should be entertaining.

[ ] Entrance Examination
Again, godmother. But very much less critical.

Would like socials:
[ ] Swordplay
[ ] Sarvoi
[ ] The Festival Lord is paired with [ ] Middenland
 
i want manfred to not go to the greys, and if there is a colleague which can understand their representative arguing against themselves is them.
 
I don't even necessarily think it's a matter of trust - yes, the Colleges will cooperate after his wind is picked, but prior to that, I think he's just too big of a political football for every College not to come out swinging for their own team.

I don't think Algard will necessarily like us tossing it to another college, but it will probably mollify him if we let him in that we're already his secret godmother.

And if that doesn't work - ORBS BE UPON YE.
 
Mandred's best bet is either the Green or Blue. They're among the most photogenic orders, with easily explainable powers that have clear benefits for normal people, and their spells will have a directly useful benefit in Mandred's personal life. "What's the Wizard Prince do?": "Bless the crops." / "See the future." is a good exchange for citizens to have.

A noble that personally can do something about death or sickness in their family would be cruising along compared to a normal noble. A noble that can see the future and destroy illusions would have insane credibility and reputation.

The other winds are all good, but not quite as good for doing a noble's job, and saying that you can waive stuff like celibacy or membership requirements for a prince still isn't the *best* look for someone who's supposed to represent both their College and their family.
 
I'm thinking trade goods for the ithilmar action; it'll probably have the highest return overall (even if it takes a lot longer to actually show those returns), benefits the Empire as a whole the most, and is easiest to swallow when it comes to the vow of poverty. Beyond that, as his godmother we should definitely go all in on Mandred actions, and as the most senior member of the colleges in K8P we should definitely look in on its first magical child.

...hmm. @Boney, if we look in on the magical child, will you roll to see if they're the child of someone we know? Just to see if we can keep up the tradition of Mathilde unexpectedly finding children with magic potential among her friends' kids?
 
I think we should go to the Examination so we can push Mandred in the direction of the Gold Order. Feldman demonstrates they can be appropriately politically savvy, and the logical, practical mindset is very helpful in a ruler. As are their spells, which are essentially the best spells to help you be a better ruler. Other people can bless crops or predict the future for you, but other people can't help you make better decisions using Trial and Error and Law of Logic when you're the final decision maker, as an Elector Count often is.

The Jades are particularly bad because of their seasonality and their history as a non-Imperial ethnic group, but the Celestials also have problematic cultural/Wind induced proclivities. Gold Mages being acquisitive for material wealth is just business as usual for feudal rulers. There are no mental Gold Arcane Marks either. There are some that make them look and sound odd (although hopefully gilding would fix those), but no direct supernatural effects on their character or other people's perception of them.

An Elector Count can probably afford the purified dwarven gold for gilding as well.
 
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The big advantage of ok, one big advantage among many big advantages of trade goods is it means that the EIC becomes the middle man between Tor Lithanel and K8P which is insanely profitable and would make for a substantial trade company all on it's own. Our yearly income might well double or triple.
 
So trying to figure the implications of the different payment options:

Precious Stones
+Greater overall value in the mid-long term, if we don't saturate the market.
~Can be traded for fungible methods of payment in Lothern or some other large market, if we decide to go Elfcation and we eventually decide we want cash after all.
-I am pretty sure that we don't know the specifics of the potential worth of Laurelorn gems. While luxury goods are typically highly elastic, it is entirely possible that they won't be as valuable in Ulthuan as they would be in the Old World.

Gold
+Immediacy. Good for shopping spree during Elfcation.
-Our payment would come from a relative decapitalization of Middenland. While this is not likely to have a big impact in the provincial level, certain institutions (including the cult of Ulric) would find themselves with low liquidity for some years. I am worried about potential impacts in the ongoing politico-religious struggles taking place in the northern empire.

Trade Goods
+Fantastic for long term EIC expansion in the northern empire, with potential synergy with the ongoing construction of the fog road over the swamps.
-We'll have some nice profits down the line, but no wheelbarrow of coins.

Can anybody think of any angle I may be missing?
 
NSMS said:
...hmm. @Boney, if we look in on the magical child, will you roll to see if they're the child of someone we know? Just to see if we can keep up the tradition of Mathilde unexpectedly finding children with magic potential among her friends' kids?
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Uh, sure. If this d5000 is ten or less then it'll be one of the very few named Undumgi.

Edit: The second d50 was a misclick. Apparently the diceroller maxes out at d100. So that works out to 505, I think.
Boney threw 2 50-faced dice. Total: 48
5 5 43 43
Boney threw 1 100-faced dice. Total: 5
5 5
 
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[X] Initiate
[X] Dooming and Quickening
[X] Entrance Examination
[X] Swordplay
[X] Witch Hunter
 
chocolote12 said:
Mandred's best bet is either the Green or Blue. They're among the most photogenic orders, with easily explainable powers that have clear benefits for normal people, and their spells will have a directly useful benefit in Mandred's personal life. "What's the Wizard Prince do?": "Bless the crops." / "See the future." is a good exchange for citizens to have.

A noble that personally can do something about death or sickness in their family would be cruising along compared to a normal noble. A noble that can see the future and destroy illusions would have insane credibility and reputation.

The other winds are all good, but not quite as good for doing a noble's job, and saying that you can waive stuff like celibacy or membership requirements for a prince still isn't the *best* look for someone who's supposed to represent both their College and their family.
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Green has a relatively common arcane mark that would be really bad for a ruler to have; most arcane marks can be worked around, but the Jade seasonal mark means there's a high chance he'd be operating at a much reduced capability for a full quarter of each year. For the ruler of an entire province, that's disasterous.
Murazor said:
So trying to figure the implications of the different payment options:

Precious Stones
+Greater overall value in the mid-long term, if we don't saturate the market.
~Can be traded for fungible methods of payment in Lothern or some other large market, if we decide to go Elfcation and we eventually decide we want cash after all.
-I am pretty sure that we don't know the specifics of the potential worth of Laurelorn gems. While luxury goods are typically highly elastic, it is entirely possible that they won't be as valuable in Ulthuan as they would be in the Old World.

Gold
+Immediacy. Good for shopping spree during Elfcation.
-Our payment would come from a relative decapitalization of Middenland. While this is not likely to have a big impact in the provincial level, certain institutions (including the cult of Ulric) would find themselves with low liquidity for some years. I am worried about potential impacts in the ongoing politico-religious struggles taking place in the northern empire.

Trade Goods
+Fantastic for long term EIC expansion in the northern empire, with potential synergy with the ongoing construction of the fog road over the swamps.
-We'll have some nice profits down the line, but no wheelbarrow of coins.

Can anybody think of any angle I may be missing?
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Trade will probably have some additional benefits for the empire as a whole as well as us personally, and is the easiest for the vow of poverty to swallow.
 
I think that if we plan on a elfcation in the next turn or two we should absolutely get the gems. Not having the money to buy things in ulthuan would be a missed opportunity. Also is trade really a benefit to the empire? It's a benefit to the EIC. It doesn't really need the help.
 
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