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Frothy Discussion: A Boris Bokha Negaverse
And well, someone proposes a wild write-in. The thread immediately erupts in very, uh, frosty discussion. There's over fifty pages of discussion in just the first day. Things go in circles a handful of times, but since there was already a strong movement to starting a civil war any turn now (their Elfcation equivalent), it is accepted as compromise. At this point even the people who love Vladimir have to accept that he's actively hampering the nation. This is reflected in Boris' stoic yet already-grieving demeanor.

Frothy Discussion: A Boris Bokha Negaverse

Note: I am not going to do the typical Negaverse thing of coming up with alternative handles for users in the thread since a lot of this is going to be panicking and fearmongering. I will be the first to admit I have done both, but I do not want to risk anyone being upset by what is meant to be a bit of harmless play, so with that in mind the handles will be the players in-thread 'affiliations' and with no reference to anyone

Hawk Prime said:
[] Ask Lord Magister Weber to Assassinate your father, once you are Tsar you will be able to give her all the support she needs and pay her in full.

I know this sounds insane guys, but think about it a single knife in the dark, a single death could spare Kislev civil war and in terms of personal anguish for Boris that would be almost as valuable. War is bad enough but there is no war more grim than that between brothers as it were. Not to mention that a trained assassin would be able to kill old Vlad painlessly rather than having to face his son and heir on the battle field or at best be killed in a palace coup.

PeaceInKislev said:
...What? No seriously, what?

She is an agent of a foreign power, one that is interested in stability. Do you know how you get more stability in Kislev? By dealing with the prince that wants to openly kill his father. She will spill the beans the moment we even hint at that. Or worse she will blackmail us or how about this she just kills Boris since he is clearly the person destabilizing the realm.

InSearchOfUtility said:
Come on it's not that bad, not like we are gong to tell her that if she does not do this Boris is moving on to coup and civil war. It would be spooky witch's word against ours. Who do you think Vladimir is going to believe at that point?

HonorableSoul99 said:
I cannot believe we are even having this conversation... *sigh* the Chaos Gods must be laughing.

Hawk Prime said:
New plan version:

[] Ask Lord Magister Weber to Assassinate your father, once you are Tsar you will be able to give her all the support she needs and pay her in full. Make it clear that if she does not do the deed you will have to take matters into your hands.

If we are going to do this it's no place for half-messures. When you play the Game of Thrones you win or you die

HonorableSoul99 said:
WHY ARE YOU QUOTING CERSEI LANNISTER?

*breathes in*

Listen the White Walkers are coming, to stay in the same register, we cannot afford to be disunited. We can just do this in secret and by the time Vlad notices it will be too late for him to countermand it without looking weak.

InSearchOfUtility said:
Yeah I am going to have to agree with the Right Honorable Fellow up there, we a should not be betting everything on one roll of the dice. This is something we can do the usual way, let winter and hunger do our job for us. It is not like Vlad isn't rolling death dice anyway from all the hunting he does.

Hawk Secundus said:
Vladimir will indeed look weak if he countermands out command unless he calls Boris to heel at the same time and makes a show of it. Do you think he wouldn't do that? Or that our prestige can tank the hit? The same prestige mind that we need to fight in a civil war since that is what draws nobles and soldiers to our banner once this kicks off.

We can't have it both ways either we subvert the Tsar to get more prep in and hope to Ursum he dies a natural death soon, or we are a good little princeling, take prestige and gold boosters until the war sounds off.

PeaceInKislev said:
Well maybe some of us do not want civil war just because Boris is so prideful that he is willing to stain his hands with the blood of his father. You guys ever thought about that?

IAmSwitserland said:
Not this again, we are not corrupted by Chaos. We had four divine visitations this quest, five if you count the Tavern Crawl that Will Not Be Mentioned. How do you think we are tricking the Gods, the Land?

Heh, maybe Boris is secretly the Changeling and we do not know :V

Hawk Prime said:
*compilation of quotes from earlier in the thread involving talks with Mathilde*

Does this woman sound like someone who is going to blackmail us for fun? Who is going to assassinate Boris because he wanted to protect his people from Chaos? She managed to reinvent Geomancy by getting elves and dwarfs to get along. That is like Matrioshka levels of miracle. Do you think this woman will not jump at the chance to spread her work in Kislev?

HonorableSoul99 said:
I think this is not the kind of thing you ask of an ally if you want them to stay your ally. Boris will prove himself at a bare minimum untrustworthy.

Hawk Secundus said:
Come on the bear pun was right there.

Priorities people. :V
 
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Grey Diplomacy at it's finest: "don't make me come over there", underscored with regular reminders that "yes, actually, we can come over there, and there's nothing you can do to stop us".
Now the nothing you can do is really making me laugh.

"Hey we heard you were doing drills so we sent Journeyman Weber to infiltrate."
"No, we've asked you to stop doing this."
"Whats a drill without an assassin to test it against, don't worry she's been running spy rings, she's basically just a paper work jocky this one will be easy."
"Do you think we didn't hear about Drakenhof?"
I, personally, would rate Abelhelm as a Servant in order of Most Likely to Least as:
1.Lancer: He earned his Imperial Title and Witchhunter Rank with an Halberd. Regardless of whether we, the thread, knew about it, Abelhelm's Legend would involve his deeds with it most.
2. Saber: He earned a Runefang for his ceaseless efforts to cleanse the Undead. He died with a Runefang in hand in his ceaseless efforts to cleanse the Undead. Both sides of the same coin.
3. Rider: He made the road dividing one of the hellish forests of Stirland/Sylvania and drove it straight to the heart of the Vampire's Lands to fight them. He inspired and led his Court so that where he Fell, they carried on. He commanded the Dämmerlichtreiter.
4. Archer: He wielded a Rifle and Pistol in battle. He and his family brought rifles and pistols and gunpowder into prominence for Stirlands Armies.
5. Ruler: He is most known as the Hunter Count. But he died on the cusp of victory, with his dreams soured by his duty in the face of failure, unable to witness the victory carried on his name, a Martyr.

I would also be interested in seeing Servant classes for Eike, Panoramia, Anton, Wilhelmia, and the Ducklings.
Clearly he's summoned as a Caster due to being the true owner of the Liber Mortis. To everyones horror.
 
Birth of Thunder
Birth of Thunder

Ljiljana approached the walls of Kislev City with a steady pace, not at all hurried. Boris was not yet officially crowned as Tzar, for one, and it would not do to be rushed even if he was. A certain amount of dignity needed to be retained for the Ved'ma, even as reduced as they were. Boris was waiting for her by the entrance to the inside of the walls near where the gates are, his 'pets' standing around him three men thick- no surprise, given his father's sudden passing.

"You have certainly been running about since Vladimir's death," Ljiljana commented as they ascended the stairs. "Meetings with Boyars, meetings with Atamans, now meeting with the Ved'ma…"

"Perhaps," Boris responded as they reached the top, "if I move around them quickly enough, the Boyars will be too unsteady to put up a fuss about what Kislev needs. Along with others… this has not reached any beyond a scant few, but I have reason to believe my father did not die of natural causes. He was a fit man, why so suddenly? And the surgeon, when he cut into him, his heart was cut through. It was as though someone reached in with a knife but broke no skin."

"You have suspicions," she said as she looked at him with raised eyebrows.

"Yha. We were making inquiries into Pragg, into the Kalashiniviks. I believe they feared my father would discover they hid some of Kattarin's kind among their number… but they made a mistake when they killed him. I will reach into Pragg and remove the blood-drinkers and all their puppets, and Kislev will be safe from at least one horror."

"And you wish to have our support, the support of the Ved'ma in this?"

"Yha, but that is not the entire reason I requested you come here." They stopped along the battlements at a large cannon, which he gestured at. "Do you know the history of these guns?"

"Nya. Blackpowder and cannons is very far from my understanding. They are loud and dirty and the short folk and Imperinyi are far too fond of them to be healthy."

"These guns have a particular legacy to them. Tsar Alexis commissioned a dozen of these from Nuln before the War, great big Thunderers that can lob enough iron to take out a whole pack of trolls. Most of them were stationed in Pragg, where most of them were destroyed, but they each took their share of the Za with them. Only a few remain, but to the credit of the Imperinyi, they've lasted well. These old Thunderers are the oldest guns we have, and certainly the most storied- not many veterans of the War left to us now."

"A neat bit of history. Very pretty. What do the Ved'ma have to do with these Groms?"

"I wish to take them into battle, to bring them to fight against the Za directly."

"Then I would say you are a great fool indeed. I know nothing of guns, but these great big things? Too heavy by half, whatever pulk you place them in would move at the pace of a snail to not leave them behind."

"I've had thoughts on this. There is a particular spell that Imperinyi Ved'ma Weber cast, that seemed to turn a muddy field into the finest of roads, made out of fog and mist."

"Yha, I am familiar. She spread it around very much when we went with the short folk to look at their missing mountain. You wish me to get her for this?"

"Nya. Now, I have read books on the magic in the world, but I am not so arrogant to think that I could know more about your art than you do. Still, from Weber's spell the thought came to me, and I felt the need to seek an answer- could the Ved'ma put magic into a sled that the cannon could sit upon, and the sled would create ice beneath it so that the gun would slide along as though it were a skater on a frozen lake? Is this a thing your magic could do?"

Ljiljana thought for a minute or so, staring at the cannon and considering. "Yha," she said finally, "it is not apprentice work to do it, but it could be done. It is not enough though, these things are so heavy you would need a team of horses to drag them along. They would still be useless in Raspotitsa or anywhere there is no solid road, which is everywhere."

"Ah," Boris began with a smile, "you have my word. Supply sleds fit to carry them, and I shall supply something capable of dragging these Grom into battle. I think it will do the pulks much good to have a symbol of defiance against the Za among them, roaring thunder once more."
______________________________________________________________________________
And that may-or-may not be the story of how these units get made in Divided Loyalties.



 
Note: I am not going to do the typical Negaverse thing of coming up with alternative handles for users in the thread since a lot of this is going to be panicking and fearmongering. I will be the first to admit I have done both, but I do not want to risk anyone being upset by what is meant to be a bit of harmless play, so with that in mind the handles will be the players in-thread 'affiliations' and with no reference to anyone

I'm going to be honest, I wouldn't be too upset if you'd had one poster aggressively attacking everyone with the same point over and over and over again until everyone is sick of them, and then you called that poster "Dorkasaurus" or something.

I might be an arse at times, but I'm an introspective one.
 
I'm going to be honest, I wouldn't be too upset if you'd had one poster aggressively attacking everyone with the same point over and over and over again until everyone is sick of them, and then you called that poster "Dorkasaurus" or something.

I might be an arse at times, but I'm an introspective one.

Nah, if I was in the habit of doing that to anyone else I do not even want to think what my alternative poster would look like. Rather keep it to wholesome frost and bear puns.
 
...This is a weird thing to say, but I can't help but remember how, when Mathilde was fighting alongside the dwarves at the East Gates of K8P, the Clan Argrund Longbeards stared at her "with the stare of a being quite reluctant to admit that there might just be something mannish and young that could meet with their approval".

In this case, I imagine Ljiljana might be having thoughts on how, annoyingly, a man might be having some ok thoughts on the usage of magic.
 
I'm not super surprised the assassination went well, since we have this trait:


We were told that the tzar specifically was not protecting against magic, so it would have been odder if we had difficulties.
He was without magical defences, that's not the same thing as not looking out for magic. Given the suspicions of lamians and him not being liked by the hags and ice witches he would be an absolute moron to not look out for magical infiltration
 
Now if only we can figure out a way to fuck over Marineburg with this
The direct way would be to use the boon to have Kislev put a tariff on goods heading to or coming from Marienburg. Combined with the Blackwater Canal offering an alternative route to the sea, that would drill into their bottom line significantly. Not cripplingly - Kislev is probably not their biggest market - but the direct effects would be noticeable and once it's clear Kislev has 'gotten away' with it, other states will want to gouge Marienburg too to some degree.

The idea of free trade being beneficial to all isn't particularly established in the setting; most assume economics is zero-sum ("If a merchant is making money, what they take comes from people who actually work"). Tariffs often seem like a way to take money from rivals at no cost to yourself, if you can get away with charging them.
 
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Now if only we can figure out a way to fuck over Marineburg with this

With Laurelorn and Vlag coming to Erengrad to trade, it makes sense to start investing and building it up as a trade hub. It's also near a silk road, so if Boris negotiates with Vlag to build dwarf roads throughout kislev, linking Erengard to the east, then it could become a half decent competitor to Marienburg. Hell, they could probably get a dwarf road to the south into the Empire as well, into Ostland or something.
 
The Encroaching Shadow
The Encroaching Shadow

Vladimir Bokkha, Tzar of all the lands and peoples of Kislev, sighed as he changed into his sleepwear. Another day gone. Another day of listening to reports of increased stirrings to the north. Increased raids and incursions on his people. Increased signs and sightings of darker creatures in the night than trolls and goblins. Another day closer to the reckoning of his Realm. The reckoning of his people.

The Za were coming.

Kislev was not ready.

The signs started decades ago, for all that they only grew enough to truly recognise them for what they were in the last few years. They had not wanted to recognise them. It was still far too early; even in two centuries Kislev had not recovered from the Great War.

He had made good work, he thought. He had focused on the stability and prosperity of the land and her people in his life. Kislev was recovering, its land ever more secured, its enemies slain. The people were growing strong again, remembering what they should be. But they were not whole.

The cults remained all but dead. And what of it, he had thought? What uses were places of worship while his people lived in huts, while enemies stalked outside their homes? He had always thought Boris could complete those works, that it would take all of his own reign to restore Kislev to a point where the return of the Gods could be even considered. The Motherlands people were strong. They had survived without the true protection of the Gods for lifetimes now, they could do so for one more. So he had dedicated all he had to what he thought was important, to the land. Homes. Let the Boyars do as they wish, what need has he of wasting time on their politics if that time was taking from the cleansing of the land, the killing of Kislev's enemies? Let them and the people grow into what is reclaimed. Build the foundation for what could come after, so that their children's children could see Kislev whole again.

Shows what a fool he was.

Relations with outsiders were little better. Kislev would always stand alone, but the steel from trade would be useful at the very least. Again though he had thought, what use would access to foreign goods be when his people had not the coin to buy them? A concern for future generations, when their roads had been made safe.

That, at least, was not an insurmountable problem. He did have some influence he could use to push trade, but that wouldn't be enough. Mortal weapons alone would not suffice in what was to come.

Without the Gods, the men of Kislev stood alone against the coming Za, more alone than ever before, weaker than ever before. He believed in the strength of his people, brothers all, but they had barely survived the last war. One of Kislev's great cities forever lost, or at least close enough for mortal men. So long as the land survived, Kislev survived, but now sometimes his mind wondered if even that would remain.

Visions of fire and blood crept upon him, conjured by his dark thoughts. As always he tried to banish them by calling up visions of what was important, the things he loved, what he fought to protect. The beautiful, stark fields and forests that made up his home. His people, marching to defend that home.

His son.

Vladimir sighed again, as that brought back the memory of his last discussion with Boris. The end of it, anyways.



"Foreign Witchcraft again?" Vladimir scoffed. They had been talking for some time, he and his son, and things had been going comparatively well for recently. And now again, this. "No. I have told you before Boris, Kislev will not support these projects."

"My Tzar. Father. We need this." Boris pleaded. Oh, nobody else would describe his expression as pleading, but he knew his son. Could see the desperation in his eyes. Damn his fool boy. "Kislev cannot stand alone against what comes, we need friends. Allies. We need people who can match against the magic of the Za. If the Imperinyi will not do, the Ice Court-"

"The fucking Ice Court?" Vladimir sneered. "Fuck the Ice Court. Where were the vaunted Ice Witches when Kislev suffered? Now they come crawling back like vultures, as the people grow strong again, have worth again. Kislev has had enough of parasites for all its history; it has no need for more.

"Nor does it have need of foreigners," he continued on before Boris could speak again. This was not even close to the first time they had had this conversation. He knew what Boris would say next. "The foreigners will come to fight the Za. They will come, as they always have, when it is their land that is threatened. When Kislev has already burned and bled, and those we have always held back are all but ready to march on them, they will come. And not a moment sooner. They will not come to help us.

"Kislev does not need witches. It does not need foreigners. What Kislev absolutely does not need, is foreign fucking witches."

Vladimir stopped, breathing in deep, trying to calm himself before staring into his boy's eyes.

"Kislev, as always, stands alone. I will hear no more of this."

-

He… had been overly harsh, perhaps. He loved his son, by the gods he loved him, but their talks had not gone well for some time, and it had been a hard week. He had hoped, with how well the conversation had gone to that point, well…

It was just so frustrating. His son needed to understand. He would succeed him one day, so long as they could brave what was coming, and he would be a great ruler. He knew it in his heart. But in some things, Boris was still too hopeful, too trusting, idealistic. Naive.

Vladimir had ruled Kislev for many years, had lived in it for more, and had heard much from those that lived before that. When the Za marched and burned Kislev, the south stood by and watched, arguing until it was all but their turn. Only then did their armies arrive. Trade was all well and good, and the return of the dwarf mountain was a stroke of good fortune, but foreigners could not be relied upon to fight when needed. And the witches…

When the Za marched, it was the people who were the ones that fought, the cults all but to their death, while the witches stood by and watched. When a monster ruled atop the throne, the people feasted upon, suffering, it was the people who changed that, as the witches stood by and watched. As the people endured being hunted on their own fractured land for two centuries, and as he and the people bled to take back their home, to piece Kislev back together again, the witches stood by and watched.

But most of all, as sorcery corrupted the land and killed the people, as Praag was infested with Za and traitors, made a bastion of evil in the heart of their lands, the witches, the so called magical authority and protectors of the land, stood by and watched. For two centuries as the very powers they were meant to match reigned terror on Kislev and her people, they, who's purpose, only purpose, was to protect the people against what they could not protect themselves, stood by and watched. They did nothing.

There was no salvation for Kislev in magic.

If only there was a clear salvation at all that he could see.

If the witches could not be trusted to do their duty, whether through cowardice or whatever else, he cared not, they had to turn to the Gods. But he had never planned to restore the cults in his lifetime, hadn't thought he would need to, and now as they appear his only hope he finds himself bound with the very rope he used to pull Kislev back together again.

He wondered what was best for Kislev, how he could best serve her. How best he could prepare his people for the coming storm. Or, the thought lurking in the darker corners of his mind made itself known, if it was even him at all that could best prepare-

The door opened, shaking Vladimir from his thoughts. He managed to force a smile at Mila as she walked into the room, and the two moved towards the bed. Tomorrow awaited with all its troubles, and beyond that the shadow hanging over them all. But tonight, at least, he could rest.
 
I'm not super surprised the assassination went well, since we have this trait:

We were told that the tzar specifically was not protecting against magic, so it would have been odder if we had difficulties.
IMO the assassination itself was never in doubt. What was in doubt was just how well we could make the death suitable to Boris' needs, and getting away if it was too complicated. This was reflected in both the vote options and the rolls to see how well accompanied or patrolled the Tzar was. And because we went out of our way to do a super subtle yet somewhat risky Matrix'd Shadow Knife, we got a third roll to indicate the knife's trajectory.

Without that, it'd have been even simpler - but of course, the normal Nighttime Visit vote option noted that perhaps it'd be too simple for Boris' purpose.
 
I know the omake above was meant to make me sympathize with Vladimir, but it actually makes me more glad we killed him if that was what he was thinking as we did so. That is 'Pyre-happy Stirlander peasant' misunderstanding the value and the limitations of magic. :mob: :V
 
He was without magical defences, that's not the same thing as not looking out for magic. Given the suspicions of lamians and him not being liked by the hags and ice witches he would be an absolute moron to not look out for magical infiltration
I think it has to be taken into consideration that he very well could be an idiot. In canon, it was explciitly stated that Kislev never recovered from the Great War against Chaos until Boris' reign, and one of the latest updates proved it with Mathilde mentioning how the palace was still damaged:
The walls of the Bokha Palace look formidable to an untrained eye, but it was fashioned for defending against armies, not assassins. And that there is still damage in the Palace from the Great War almost two centuries ago is a fitting reminder of why you're doing this. A crater that had once been a cannon emplacement provides one easy access point for a probe into the palace, as does a walkway to a now-missing tower that shifts unsettlingly as your weight appears on it.
Vladimir was extremely bad at his job, and that includes protecting himself from assassination. The guy wasn't the sharpest tool in the shed.
 
I know the omake above was meant to make me sympathize with Vladimir, but it actually makes me more glad we killed him if that was what he was thinking as we did so. That is 'Pyre-happy Stirlander peasant' misunderstanding the value and the limitations of magic. :mob: :V

Yeah, don't get me wrong he had to go but I tried to think up a version of him that still left him as a generally well intentioned and not completely idiotic ruler, simply one who made mistakes and has a couple of (fairly major) issues that are now unfortunately catastrophic. And yeah, 'extreme disdain of magic' is one of them :p

I appreciate that as an omake you can make this as AU as you like, but I think if it were accurate to quest-canon-Vlad there would have been any indications at all that Vlad was doing something to prepare Kislev for Chaos, even if it wasn't the preparations we'd have chosen.

To be fair, we didn't really look, so that gives some leeway :p

But really yeah, if I had to bet for say a quest vote I'd say that probably isn't the case, but I had the idea so omake.
 
Yeah, it seems that the reason Vladimir wasn't assassinated up to now wasn't that it was particularly difficult to do so, but because for most people who might want to he was more useful alive. The Boyars were all happy enough with his effective non-interference policy, and the kind of schemers that might usually resort to assassination pretty much had free reign regardless. They would (and will) have a much harder time with his son.

Further, his usual habits were very high in danger- people who actually did want him gone could just wait until he inevitably died on one of his hunts.

So it took people with very immediate and ultimately altruistic goals to do him in.
 
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Yeah, it seems that the reason Vladimir wasn't assassinated up to now wasn't that it was particularly difficult to do so, but because for most people who might want to he was more useful alive. The Boyars were all happy enough with his effective non-interference policy, and the kind of schemers that might usually resort to assassination pretty much had free reign regardless. They would have (and will) have a much harder time with his son.

Further, his usual habits were very high in danger- people who actually did want him gone could just wait until he inevitably died on one of his hunts.

So it took people with very immediate and ultimately altruistic goals to do him in.
There's also the fact that Mathilde is... not a fair standard to judge the ease of assassinations against. Anyone with dedicated magical assassins could have taken him out if they wanted (though off the top of my head, the VCs are the only ones with both the assassins and a real motive to do so), but mundane or mostly-mundane ones would probably have had a much, much harder time of things.
 
From how I understand things the Tzar seemed like a classic case of a ruler who got the position but had no interest in actually ruling. He was the type of guy who would be good to have in a war, leading the army and inspiring the people while fighting against the enemy but in peace time he couldn't care less about doing all that stuff.

Hell historically in our own timeline we don't even have to look that far to find a Tzar even worse. Just look at Peter Ulric, the guy was infamously incompetent at ruling Russia.
 
I know the omake above was meant to make me sympathize with Vladimir, but it actually makes me more glad we killed him if that was what he was thinking as we did so. That is 'Pyre-happy Stirlander peasant' misunderstanding the value and the limitations of magic. :mob: :V
> Tzar complains that Witches and foreigners never help Kislev until after they've already bled and died.
> foreign Witch offers help to Kislev long before the war actually starts
> Tzar tells them to fuck off.

:V

Realistically, I do understand the thought process and how someone can get there after going through the hardships he was shown to in the omake, but from an objective perspective it kinda is horribly hypocritical.
 
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