Warhammer Fantasy: Divided Loyalties - an Advisor's Quest

[SuperSonicSound]

Ah, I see then I'm tangentially on Learning.

And this, I think we can trust the Rangers to be competent in doing their job, it's their new home after all.
Speaking of rangers, we should realllyyy spend some time learning from them.

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The rangers are competent, that doesn't change the fact they aren't illusion wizards capable of literally walking into the enemy formations and pretending to be part of them. It's one thing to not underestimate our allies and their agency it's quite another to ascribe to them super competence. If they were genuinely so good that Mathilde can't do better than them we wouldn't have earned the reams of favour we have with the Dwarves.

Once again, the Dwarven rangers didn't learn about the Orcish ritual or the attempt to awaken the Orc Idol. They didn't learn about the deal between the Grobi and the Skaven that we put an end too.

Per WoG there are six more events happening in the other peaks equivalent to the above. There is minimal chance that the rangers will be able to intervene in them because they aren't able to put an illusion on themselves allowing them to walk in through the front door.

 

[Alectai]

Being mayor of humans here is pretty explicitly a position of responsibility for them, and not taking time for it would be seen as dereliction of duty.
I presume same would apply for Learning too, but it's inherently fuzzier because nobody's exactly sure what can it entail, and dwarfs never had court wizards to boot. Unlike trade/governor stuff of Stewardship, half of 'mandatory' stuff there is liable to be poking at Weird Shit, doing research of probable dangers and scouting out various dark places of the map - all things we probably wanted to do regardless.
(Stewardship of out bent is liable to involve a fair bit of Intrigue things too, of course, but I think it'd still involve more diplomacy and economics than Mathilde is alright with - while a bit vain, being always in center of attention is not quite her forte I assume)

Of course, Learning also means we may screw up and spend time on useless tangents and nonsense which will not make an actionable effect on Hold's health, so it's a bit more of a wildcard-y pick, I presume.

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We're going to spend time on assignments no matter what, yes.

What we're not obligated to do is spend 100% of our actions on our job, regardless of how Mathilde tended to get carried away in her old position. Two actions or so per turn is perfectly adequate under most circumstances.

The rangers are competent, that doesn't change the fact they aren't illusion wizards capable of literally walking into the enemy formations and pretending to be part of them. It's one thing to not underestimate our allies and their agency it's quite another to ascribe to them super competence. If they were genuinely so good that Mathilde can't do better than them we wouldn't have earned the reams of favour we have with the Dwarves.

Once again, the Dwarven rangers didn't learn about the Orcish ritual or the attempt to awaken the Orc Idol. They didn't learn about the deal between the Grobi and the Skaven that we put an end too.

Per WoG there are six more events happening in the other peaks equivalent to the above. There is minimal chance that the rangers will be able to intervene in them because they aren't able to put an illusion on themselves allowing them to walk in through the front door.

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Lemme stop you there. Boney said each of the peaks had something going on, they never said they were equal in threat.

Like, Karag Lhune? It didn't seem like anything exceptionally ridiculous. A Goblin tribe had connections with the Skaven and were using them to buy monsters--that's concerning but hardly 'All hands on deck apocalypse' like the Avatar of Gork would have been.

Assuming that Mathilde is the only person in this gathering of heroes who can identify flashpoints is super arrogant.

 

[1337Procrast]

[X] Remain in Karak Eight Peaks, either in the employ of Belegar or pursuing your research.

[X] Claim the site where Ranald mugged Mork and build a shrine to Ranald there.

[X] King Belegar is allowing you to use the King's Armoury. Recover your extant study materials from Stirland and tuck them away safely in there.

[X] All this time away has made you miss your friends, and you'll be practically next door in Altdorf. Visit Anton and Wilhelmina.

 

[veekie]

But its reasonable that if things are reaching a boiling point the Rangers would have flagged it and bumped it up. They are skilled in their category, and Kragg is in the area so he'd notice any major magical shifts as well.

Because by that logic Mathilde has to take the Head Ranger slot or all hell breaks loose.

It would be nice to have a dedicated stealth hero doing recon, but its not an absolute necessity

 

[Alectai]

But its reasonable that if things are reaching a boiling point the Rangers would have flagged it and bumped it up. They are skilled in their category, and Kragg is in the area so he'd notice any major magical shifts as well.

Because by that logic Mathilde has to take the Head Ranger slot or all hell breaks loose.

It would be nice to have a dedicated stealth hero doing recon, but its not an absolute necessity

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Again, like, her Learning position? Apparently literally does exactly this shit, figures out the problems going on and then shoots them until they stop being problems. "Hey, something weird's going on, go have Mathilde do Mathilde things to it" is our position here.

The two "Marshal" positions here (External and Internal) both make us responsible for the pace of the reclaimation, and Mathilde's at her best being given a timeline and then told to do what she needs to do to make sure that timeline gets met or exceeded.

 

[veekie]

Again, like, her Learning position? Apparently literally does exactly this shit, figures out the problems going on and then shoots them until they stop being problems. "Hey, something weird's going on, go have Mathilde do Mathilde things to it" is our position here.

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Right. Which is why I don't see the artificial panic being drummed up about needing to scout right now or Bad Things happen making sense.

Big events have big buildup. There would be hints to interact now...and theres like 6 Peaks which are physically impossible for Mathilde to scout to a reasonable extent in 1-4 actions if its that covert.

 

[noliar]

It's not that we don't want to spend more time with our friends but since a visit to Wurtbad is locked in we will get see them, hug Anton, have a cup of tea and tell Wilhelmina what Empire goods will fetch a good price in K8P*. Meanwhile shit is happening under those 6 mountains and caldera.

*I'd go with fine cloth, especially linen and wine.

 

[veekie]

We're not voting for dropping by and saying hi.
We're having actual in depth dialogue, finding out how things went with them, letting them know about recent events in Eight Peaks before the news hits general circulation(and useful for both of their current jobs).

We could have the EIC with a finger in Eight Peaks before other trading concerns even got their pants on.

 

[Sinsystems]

We're not voting for dropping by and saying hi.
We're having actual in depth dialogue, finding out how things went with them, letting them know about recent events in Eight Peaks before the news hits general circulation(and useful for both of their current jobs).

We could have the EIC with a finger in Eight Peaks before other trading concerns even got their pants on.

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Not to mention we give them a heads up about the oncoming mass of recently enriched Stirlanders coming home, since depending on how long their trip takes we are likely to arrive before them.

 

[Zero Gravitas]

Right. Which is why I don't see the artificial panic being drummed up about needing to scout right now or Bad Things happen making sense.

Big events have big buildup. There would be hints to interact now...and theres like 6 Peaks which are physically impossible for Mathilde to scout to a reasonable extent in 1-4 actions if its that covert.

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Well 1 of the peaks is just trolls so that's not necessarily urgent.

If Mathilde takes care of 3 or 4 of the others the Rangers could effectively take 20 on the last peak.

Like, Karag Lhune? It didn't seem like anything exceptionally ridiculous. A Goblin tribe had connections with the Skaven and were using them to buy monsters--that's concerning but hardly 'All hands on deck apocalypse' like the Avatar of Gork would have been.

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Between rat swarms and trolls the peak could have been fortified to the point of earning the mountain Vietnam tag singlehandedly. Mathilde saved thousands of Dawi lives and kept the reconquest on high momentum with her sabotage.

 

[SuperSonicSound]

But its reasonable that if things are reaching a boiling point the Rangers would have flagged it and bumped it up. They are skilled in their category, and Kragg is in the area so he'd notice any major magical shifts as well.

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The first the Rangers would have known about the Skaven and Grobi working together is when a bunch of clan Moulder Rat Ogres and other monsters join in, Monsters effectively require artillery to be dealt with effectively. It would have been a big problem and the Rangers wouldn't have been able to put a stop to it.

The first the Rangers would have learned about the Ritual and the Idol would have been after they'd finished and the Idol is used to attack us. All of our victories come down to the fact that dwarven expedition hasn't really been fighting into the traditional dwarven manner. Decisions have been made at lightning speed allowing us to get inside their OODA loop and disrupt enemy plans before they can come to fruition. It's a big part of why we've had the successes we've had. The mentality of bunkering up is important to not over extend but it also leaves us vulnerable to enemy plans as we lose the initiative.

Right. Which is why I don't see the artificial panic being drummed up about needing to scout right now or Bad Things happen making sense.

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You know the warning about heating the thread is still there right, your labelling of this as artificial panic is being completely dismissive and is insulting.

Big events have big buildup. There would be hints to interact now...and theres like 6 Peaks which are physically impossible for Mathilde to scout to a reasonable extent in 1-4 actions if its that covert.

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Do they? That's interesting where was the build up for the skaven and grobi working together? There wasn't any because we wouldn't have known until it was to late to stop. Likewise for the ritual awakening the idol we'd have had no idea until it was to late to stop. You're well past the point of optimistic here and blindly ignoring contrary evidence. Just because the effects can be big doesn't mean there has to be a big build up that's obvious.

I think there's a lot of confusion as to what the Rangers actually are. They're military scouts and observers, they watch for army movements they learn the lay of the land and they give info on the line of battle. They aren't able to trivially go behind enemy lines to peak under the cover and see what the enemy is planning. They aren't spies able to learn about hidden movements of the enemy or their magical dealings. We've just had conclusive evidence of how powerful a spy hero is at dealing with the enemies plans. They certainly aren't able to put the knife to enemy leadership from the shadows.

That isn't to say the Rangers aren't important but they aren't able to do what Mathilde can do it's the difference between an army observer and James Bond.

Between rat swarms and trolls the peak could have been fortified to the point of earning the mountain Vietnam tag singlehandedly. Mathilde saved thousands of Dawi lives and kept the reconquest on high momentum with her sabotage.

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Packs of Rat ogres would have been a nightmare to deal with.

 

[Alectai]

Do they? That's interesting where was the build up for the skaven and grobi working together? There wasn't any because we wouldn't have known until it was to late to stop. Likewise for the ritual awakening the idol we'd have had no idea until it was to late to stop. You're well past the point of optimistic here and blindly ignoring contrary evidence. Just because the effects can be big doesn't mean there has to be a big build up that's obvious.

I think there's a lot of confusion as to what the Rangers actually are. They're military scouts and observers, they watch for army movements they learn the lay of the land and they give info on the line of battle. They aren't able to trivially go behind enemy lines to peak under the cover and see what the enemy is planning. They aren't spies able to learn about hidden movements of the enemy or their magical dealings. We've just had conclusive evidence of how powerful a spy hero is at dealing with the enemies plans. They certainly aren't able to put the knife to enemy leadership from the shadows.

That isn't to say the Rangers aren't important but they aren't able to do what Mathilde can do it's the difference between an army observer and James Bond.



Packs of Rat ogres would have been a nightmare to deal with.

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I would point out that a good portion of the expedition's danger was literally "You don't have time to properly scout these places so you're flying blind", and Mathilde and the Rangers collectively did work correcting those problems.

Now that we're established, we have time to figure out the other dangers conventionally as opposed to needing to improvise at every turn.

 

[ctulhuslp]

But its reasonable that if things are reaching a boiling point the Rangers would have flagged it and bumped it up. They are skilled in their category, and Kragg is in the area so he'd notice any major magical shifts as well.

Because by that logic Mathilde has to take the Head Ranger slot or all hell breaks loose.

It would be nice to have a dedicated stealth hero doing recon, but its not an absolute necessity

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They wouldn't have made heads or tails of the Avatar of Gork ritual.
Tbf neither did we, but, praise be to Ranald, we bumbled our way to resolving the issue anyway.

I imagine that'd be our role as Learning or Martial advisor half the time, but Rangers are perfectly decent at handling purely Martial-angle threats, while we are fairly unique in being able to stumble onto solution to mystical problems.

 

[BioWolf]

I can see where a little bit of the frustration comes from here; there's a sense that by putting any person in the slot they are robbing the Karak of much-needed expertise in some other category. If the miner is selected for Stewardship, the halflings won't get their farms running properly, and so forth.

There are two defenses against this:

First, people don't sit around on their butts if not directly controlled. If the halflings aren't on the council as stewardship they're still going to grow plants, it will just be happening in a less organized manner with less Council control.

Second, if the Council wants to control it, then there's a system in place for that- the Stewardship advisor assigned a sub-organization with a lieutenant as its leader and then permanently dedicates a half-action to oversight, as per how our intel networks and the Watch worked in Stirland. This means that any advisor in any category can actually get at least some of the benefits and actions of all the other advisor picks.

So if Mathilde takes the Learning advisor slot it doesn't mean that Karak Eight Peaks will have a shitty engineering guild, it means that she'll need to make the engineering guild one of her overseen organizations in order to give Belegar reports on it and let him issue it orders. Likewise if she is in the Martial slot she'd better coordinate with the thanes because she doesn't have a lot of experience in ordering around conventional dwarf Throngs and seeing to their maintenance and operations.

If we don't want one of the Council slots, and want a more limited scope of responsibility, then this just flips around- essentially, we end up as the Council advisor's Julia character (referencing Stirland again). So if we want to oversee Karag Nar and trade but nothing else we choose the No Slot option and then approach the person chosen about that, if we want to go assassinating skaven we approach the internal martial advisor about setting us up with a Royal Assassin's Office, if we want to poke waystones we talk to the Learning Advisor about a waystone-poking budget and writ of authorization.

@BoneyM, am I generally on track here?

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This is so well thought out it made me happy to read.

 

[SuperSonicSound]

I would point out that a good portion of the expedition's danger was literally "You don't have time to properly scout these places so you're flying blind", and Mathilde and the Rangers collectively did work correcting those problems.

Now that we're established, we have time to figure out the other dangers conventionally as opposed to needing to improvise at every turn.

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Personally I think that's another error that's being made, I don't think all of the peaks major events will fire off in short order but we also don't know what they are or when they will. WoG is that all of the peaks have a major event in motion and that all of them will go off if we don't intervene.

Every Peak will have a Warboss (or Warlord or Master Moulder or Warlock-Engineer or...) and each of them are going to be Up To Something - it's an important part of how I write that every character is a target in motion that is up to their own nefarious deeds rather than waiting around for the protagonist to arrive. This does make K8P somethingof a target-rich environment for Major Shenanigans for Mathilde to get into the middle of. That said, killing Skarsnik would have been a big deal if he had been all grown up and ruining everybody's day, but killing Skarsnik in TYOOS 2478 is a cheeky in-joke for the thread and a complete nothing for Mathilde herself, and derailing Grimgor is an assumption the thread has leapt to which they're having too much fun with to speak against.

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Rangers are perfectly decent at handling purely Martial-angle threats, while we are fairly unique in being able to stumble onto solution to mystical problems.

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These aren't the kind of threats that the rangers are capable of intervening with before it becomes military units on the march. Again the Rangers are equivalent to special army observers, they're not James Bond able to run around behind enemy lines interrupting their deals with other factions, head caping leaders, sabotaging warp engineering and derailing rituals.

 

[Thor's Twin]

[X] Remain in Karak Eight Peaks, either in the employ of Belegar or pursuing your research.
[X] Give them away...
- [X] To the Amber College
[X] Claim the site where Ranald mugged Mork and build a shrine to Ranald there.
This suggests a future assisting Karak Eight Peaks, as leader of the Undumgi and point of contact for the Ulricans.
[X] King Belegar is allowing you to use the King's Armoury. Recover your extant study materials from Stirland and tuck them away safely in there.
This suggests a future catching up on your pre-existing study topics.
[X] All this time away has made you miss your friends, and you'll be practically next door in Altdorf. Visit Anton and Wilhelmina.
This suggests a future in Stirland, whether Roswita likes it or not.

I think these choices have the most interesting synergy.

Claiming the site for Ranald moves us towards being a leader of the Undumgi, and while I don't think we should be the leader, I think having influence and some measure of authority amongst them will enable us to keep them in line as well as ensure that Karak-Eight-Peaks gets the most out of them in terms of trade and tolls. Speaking of trade and tolls, visiting our friends to tell them that we are all right and that there is a wealth of opportunity in Karak-Eight-Peaks ready to be exploited would be nice. Wizard's don't typically have many non-magical friends, and I would like to cherish the ones that Mathilde has found. Also, for all its flaws, I like Stirland and would like to have some measure of a future there ensuring that it prospers and becomes the province it always could have been if not for Sylvania.

The option to spend time with our friends also synergizes well with going to get our research materials from our Sunken Palace. If we are going to be in the area, I think it would be cool to set up proper times to say hello and talk. And the best time for collecting our supplies and talking to our friends is this turn because we'll already be in the Empire on business.

I do understand people's desire to scout the Karak-Eight-Peaks, I just don't feel compelled to do so at the moment. We are not the lynchpin upon which the success of this Karak rests. We can take the time to enjoy ourselves and the friendly company of Stirland before heading off to explore the horrors that still roam Karak-Eight-Peaks.

 

[veekie]

Unable to handle it is not remotely the same as unable to notice something wrong.
We hit the Skaven collaboration literally the day of the first shipment. If we weren't in a rush to attack before they notice we arrived the Rangers would have noticed the goblins having warbeasts or trolls.

The ritual? Don't need to understand it. Hostile shaman doing big magic is always a point of interest. Report in and get help or just shoot the shamans and pray.

If it was in normal turns we'd have been informed of greenskins using strange beasts before they could attack.

Keep the no limits fallacy in mind, by the stated logic Mathilde should have spent 5 actions over the epilogue scouting and shutting down the crisis in every peak.

Instead of setting up for her new role and winding down the campaign. Which its sstated to be.

 

[killfr3nzy]

@BoneyM would bullying more Greenskin casters help us? Maybe if we brought a Journeymanling with us?

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Significantly easier said than done. But yes, engaging in magical combat with greenskins would be one way to garner fresh insights.

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Ngl I find the mental image of Jock Mathilde bullying Ork Nerds to get their lunch money and maybe figure out the damn paper to be absolutely hilarious.

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Mathilde, strutting down into the orcish depths of the untaken Peaks.

"I know you're here, Mork, you big fucking nerd. Where's my goddamn thesis?"

 

[SuperSonicSound]

Unable to handle it is not remotely the same as unable to notice something wrong.
We hit the Skaven collaboration literally the day of the first shipment. If we weren't in a rush to attack before they notice we arrived the Rangers would have noticed the goblins having warbeasts or trolls.

The ritual? Don't need to understand it. Hostile shaman doing big magic is always a point of interest. Report in and get help or just shoot the shamans and pray.

If it was in normal turns we'd have been informed of greenskins using strange beasts before they could attack.

Keep the no limits fallacy in mind, by the stated logic Mathilde should have spent 5 actions over the epilogue scouting and shutting down the crisis in every peak.

Instead of setting up for her new role and winding down the campaign. Which its sstated to be.

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Okay now explain how the Rangers would find out about it (The Orcish ritual). You're ascribing to them an ability they don't actually have. That they can infiltrate behind enemy lines trivially and therefore gather this kind of information. There's a reason Belegar values our contributions as highly as he does. It's not because we can do the same stuff any other ranger can do but a little better it's because we bring things to the table that aren't replicated any where else.

You say they would have noticed the Goblins have monsters and warbeasts working with them, that's true they would have noticed it in normal turns, it still would have been to late to do anything about it by then.

 

[ctulhuslp]

Unable to handle it is not remotely the same as unable to notice something wrong.
We hit the Skaven collaboration literally the day of the first shipment. If we weren't in a rush to attack before they notice we arrived the Rangers would have noticed the goblins having warbeasts or trolls.

The ritual? Don't need to understand it. Hostile shaman doing big magic is always a point of interest. Report in and get help or just shoot the shamans and pray.

If it was in normal turns we'd have been informed of greenskins using strange beasts before they could attack.

Keep the no limits fallacy in mind, by the stated logic Mathilde should have spent 5 actions over the epilogue scouting and shutting down the crisis in every peak.

Instead of setting up for her new role and winding down the campaign. Which its sstated to be.

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Rangers would likely die if they tried doing that with at least ritual.
We, well....we know what we did. Not something they could pull off, unless they have a Ranger/Runesmith/Runepriest multiclass for counterritual and dispel duties.

Basically, while they can do the counter-mystical, investigation and assassination duties, we are plain way way better at it. They are great scouts at various environments, and no slouches at sabotage, but some of our tricks are plain not replicable by them.

 

[NSMS]

[X] Scout the rest of the Eight Peaks, to find out what other horrors are waiting out there.

Not too fussed about anything else, but not finding out everything possible about the enemy that is all but literally right on your doorstep strikes me as a bad idea.

 

[killfr3nzy]

Okay now explain how the Rangers would find out about it. You're ascribing to them an ability they don't actually have. That they can infiltrate behind enemy lines trivially and therefore gather this kind of information. There's a reason Belegar values our contributions as highly as he does. It's not because we can do the same stuff any other ranger can do but a little better it's because we bring things to the table that aren't replicated any where else.

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To be fair, the Rangers are the ones that told us about the secret way into Karag Nar that led to the Temple of Only Gork, so they could have just as well found it themselves.

Now, we might have had better odds of doing so, and/or getting back undiscovered, and I am voting for scouting as well, but lets not say the dwarves are hopeless on their own.

 

[SuperSonicSound]

To be fair, the Rangers are the ones that told us about the secret way into Karag Nar that led to the Temple of Only Gork, so they could have just as well found it themselves.

Now, we might have had better odds of doing so, and/or getting back undiscovered, and I am voting for scouting as well, but lets not say the dwarves are hopeless on their own.

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I'm not saying they're hopeless they have better understanding of the topography but it still requires that there actually be that hidden tunnel for them to use, I don't think we can remotely count on that. Which is what hoping the rangers can deal with everything on their own would be doing. Ultimately a big part of our success is basically hitting the forces here hard and fast so they can't react to the changing circumstances in a meaningful way.

 

[veekie]

To be fair, the Rangers are the ones that told us about the secret way into Karag Nar that led to the Temple of Only Gork, so they could have just as well found it themselves.

Now, we might have had better odds of doing so, and/or getting back undiscovered, and I am voting for scouting as well, but lets not say the dwarves are hopeless on their own.

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Exactly. These guys are quite competent at their jobs and Mathilde didn't use much in the way of magic when finding the temple, only when it came to the actual kill.

Its all conventional stealth.

 

[Aegon Targaryen]

Last thing I'll say about Kroak. He has S4 T5. As a corpse. A corpse is as strong and tougher than us.