Warhammer Fantasy: Divided Loyalties - an Advisor's Quest

[veekie]

Really? Did the GM say something on this? Might've missed it.

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Here

Anyone can hire adventurers to do adventurer stuff. That's the whole point of adventurers.

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All you need is adventurers hanging around

 

[SuperSonicSound]

We should take the learning position. We can do all the other stuff in that position any way and we get the most freedom to act.

 

[Pempelune]

That's, not wrong, but being a double agent essentially is how you're wording it, and I'm not comfortable with that. Again.

Becoming a spymaster is how we can show we're a big thing.

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There is no betrayal. Indeed, giving her loyalty to Belegar first would make Mathile an oathbreaker.

The first obedience of every Magister must be to the ideals and laws of Sigmar's Holy Empire of which these Articles form a part; then to he who is rightfully elected Emperor of Sigmar's Holy Empire; then to the Supreme Patriarch of the Colleges of Magic; then to the laws and ideals of their Order; then to the Patriarch of their Order; then to the authorities that each Magister may be required to serve in the course of his duties; then to other superiors within their Orders.

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Belegar trusting us and being our friend is immaterial here. Our first loyalty is to the Empire and the Grey Order.

 

[WorldSlayer]

An official position under Belegar doesn't sound very appealing at all, especially since all the options come with a lot of baggage. I want the position of being an independent Magister Lord with authority in Eight Peaks.
Being good friends with Belebro sounds awesome. Being under his authority and getting stuck with those awful jobs sounds terrible.

 

[EVA-Saiyajin]

@BoneyM

I'm not asking you to change how your quest is run. I just feel that was very misleading and hope to avoid such situations in the future.

 

[racnor]

No we cannot. I don't want any of these options as they're phrased compared to what we were originally told, but we are not going to get black checks to hire mercenaries using essentially government money.


It did not make any sense like that in it was clearly spoken of in different terms and definitions right up until someone asked about Belegar's view of things.

And no position means we're not getting a good rep for higher advancement wizard wise not doing good work for the Empire, meaning we get told to do stuff as opposed to having a rewarding career assisting in the redevelopments of Eight Peaks.

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If you're in charge of the Undumgi, then you're in charge of the Undumgi. You could delegate certain tasks and areas to underlings, but surrendering the entire Karag to self-governance will be seen as you neglecting your duty if it leads to any sort of trouble. This is still a Kingdom.

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Clear statement that the advisor option here puts us in charge in totality.

 

[ctulhuslp]

We should take the learning position. We can do all the other stuff in that position any way and we get the most freedom to act.

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I don't think we'd have too much freedom getting informants or going off to stab Skaven this way...
But yeah, it's a weird but possible option.

Or we could just be an independent wizard living in her tower and doing Wizard things I guess...

 

[EVA-Saiyajin]

Clear statment that the advisor option here puts us in charge in totality.

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No, it is not. The Karag is a mountain. The mountain where the humans are living. It is NOT the Karak, the kingdom, and it speaks only of being in charge of Umdumgi.

 

[Sinsystems]

I would like to point out that we do have rather decent Stewardship stats and contacts in the Empire we can use.

 

[Andres]

Here

All you need is adventurers hanging around

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Thanks, didn't see his response. Thought he missed the question.

 

[Lealope]

While that is indeed possible, since it's not Dynasty quest, generally, CK2 quests don't end at the first character

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Generally, CK2 quests don't even make it past their first character. A Dynasty of Dynamic Alchoholism (1.5 million words at this point) is still kicking around with Freddy, for example.

It sounded like a very different prospect earlier when you spoke of it. You spoke only of handling arcane stuff, not full fledged research and development.

Same for the Undumbgi thing. You said nothing about handling every single economic activity, either in the options that paved paths or in regular posts.

I mean, it's better to know now than when it hits us, but that was extremely misleading.

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I'm not even sure if dwarves should be divided into the six stats schema that's standard for CK2 quests to be honest. Dwarfs have little ability with and use for Intrigue since they largely don't, y'know, engage in intrigue.

I might be wrong but it seemed to me that nobody wanted Mathilde to start taking steps backwards in career. That would mean a Council position, the mechanics of which are pretty standardized.

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It's one thing for something to be standardized, but this was not being described as such. You talk of things like being a spymaster and being in charge of Umdumgi, one doesn't think "and all military matters" or "and in charge of every economic aspect"

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Perhaps there's some confusion here. When its said we'd take the position of the Learning advisor, that means we're in charge of magic shit and Belegar will have other people take care of dwarf history or engineering, right? Naturally without the same focus as if they got a council position but still not within Mathilde's responsibilities.

There is no betrayal. Indeed, giving her loyalty to Belegar first would make Mathile an oathbreaker.

Belegar trusting us and being our friend is immaterial here. Our first loyalty is to the Empire and the Grey Order.

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The key words there being "The first obedience of every Magister must be to the ideals and laws of Sigmar's Holy Empire". Considering how often the leaders of said Empire act against its best interests, I don't think keeping shit to ourselves is particularly controversial. If we tell people and they act on it, that could severely damage the relationship between the race, which is obviously outside the interests of our home.

After all, this Empire was founded on friendship with Dwarfs. What could be more true than continuing that legacy in good faith?

 

[Crocea_mors]

An official position under Belegar doesn't sound very appealing at all, especially since all the options come with a lot of baggage. I want the position of being an independent Magister Lord with authority in Eight Peaks.
Being good friends with Belebro sounds awesome. Being under his authority and getting stuck with those awful jobs sounds terrible.

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With Authority, come Responsibility.

You can't just go around with the ability to order people around, without being expected to be under the Big Bosses authority.

 

[racnor]

No, it is not. The Karag is a mountain. The mountain where the humans are living. It is NOT the Karak, the kingdom, and it speaks only of being in charge of Umdumgi.

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So your issue is not that we are completely responsible for the humans, but that we would have some authority over other areas too? I don't really see the issue.

 

[SuperSonicSound]

Considering the dwarven mindset about skills and learning/progress its actually the postion closest to spymaster in a lot of ways.

@BoneyM what would it take to convince Belegar to add another postion to his council? I presume that those positions are the traditional ones but he seems amenable to bending a little.

 

[EVA-Saiyajin]

So your issue is not that we are completely responsible for the humans, but that we would have some authority over other areas too? I don't really see the issue.

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Ok, look, I am getting increasingly frustrated from your view, so please try and see it from my point of view. You are only seeing this from the perspective after we're told what our duties broadly encompass (Internal/external Martial advisor, Stewardship Advisor, Learning Advisor). My problem is not the job, it's the misleading part, everything before that post with Belegar's views had it framed in singular parts, not an entire field. We were told of being a spymaster, if being in charge of the Umdumgi, of handling magical stuff. What was in the Belegar's view post was complete different.

 

[DevilsAdvocate]

[x] All this time away has made you miss your friends, and you'll be practically next door in Altdorf. Visit Anton and Wilhelmina.

 

[Boney]

The current totality of an economic system in Karak Eight Peaks is nada. The Undumgi could, if you command them, become the economic heart of the newborn Karak. If someone else gets the job, something else will take the economic fore. There are no other duties attached to the role because there currently is no economy attached to the Karak.

'Learning Advisor' being in charge of technological advancement is false. Abelhelm had an architect who spent all his time building castles and roads and forts. The 'Learning' slot can be any learned profession the ruler thinks will help.

 

[racnor]

Ok, look, I am getting increasingly frustrated, so please try and see it from my point of view. You are only seeing this from the perspective after we're told what our duties broadly encompass (Internal/external Martial advisor, Stewardship Advisor, Learning Advisor). My problem is not the job, it's the misleading part, everything before that post with Belegar's views had it framed in singular parts, not an entire field. We were told of being a spymaster, if being in charge of the Umdumgi, of handling magical stuff. What was in the Belegar's view post was complete different.

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Sorry, I still feel like there's a perspective disconnect.

As another stab at understanding, are you worried that we'll get bogged down with econ responsibilities unrelated to the humans?

 

[adaer]

An official position under Belegar doesn't sound very appealing at all, especially since all the options come with a lot of baggage. I want the position of being an independent Magister Lord with authority in Eight Peaks.
Being good friends with Belebro sounds awesome. Being under his authority and getting stuck with those awful jobs sounds terrible.

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It seems like if Mathilde ends up "just" being the leader of most of the human population, resident spooky magic lady, assassin of multiple Bosses so far, direct link to and co-owner of a very well positioned Imperial trade company, and investigator of plot threads of all types there's a good chance we'd sit in on council discussions as part of the larger retinue and perhaps even continue with the a dwarven version of our old brandy-meetings.

I could see us being a sort of semi-official "wildcard" counselor, someone not technically on the counsel, but privy to what's discussed there. from there, we could do anything from black ops intrigue, to promoting diplomatic and economic relations between K8P and the Empire, to radical learning actions outside the purview of whoever ends up in that role. We'd basically be the source of a free action or dice bonus to be assigned to whatever category needs it most in Belegar Quest.

 

[TotallyNotEvil]

The WFB number-crunchers have said we want to bump Magic up to 8 (most straightforwardly by learning almost all the remaining non-Battle spells) before recreating our armour robes.
Edit: IIRC that would make the robes a WFB 3+ Save, rather than the current 5+ they offer.
When we cast our own, it's 4+ currently. I don't actually know the accuracy of the 3+ thing, though.

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That's correct, and 10 magic is 2+, and a whopping 12 magic is 1+.

Probably no more than eighteen months or so. But they will be eventful months with input at a few separate stages.

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So, he'd be designing it from the ground up to fit us, over what, 1d3 turns?

So there's a good chance that one day, there will be a black orc warboss or an Eshin assassin running around with our shiny dozens-of-dwarf-favors runic gear. And when I reflect upon this, I conclude "maybe we should be spending those favors on things that aren't lootable bling"

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And then she dies to an enemy she'd otherwise defeat, as she was too afraid to carry good gear.

Either sit back and stop doing it, or accept we will keep doing it and commit to making Mathilde as well equipped to handle it as possible.

 

[Neshuakadal]

One of the things that I am concerned with about taking the learning position is what we would even report about during meetings. The more I am thinking about it the more leading the Undugmi's is calling to me. Sure we are more focused on trade and management but we are capable at those and we can keep a really good read on the pulse of the world by turning Karag 8 peaks into a trading center.

 

[Guile]

The next time they reconvene at the council table, all dwarfs involved (except for King Belegar) can't help but stare at the fourfold row of empty chairs, with the manling wizard sitting prettily in the middle of a pile of hats.

"I'd like you to meet my new advisers. First, the internal martial advisor, Dame Weber-"

Dame Weber primly reaches into the pile of hats before putting on a traditional dwarven helmet.

"Next, our external martial advisor, Dame Weber-"

She puts on an even bigger helmet, this one with horns on.

"Our stewardship advisor, Dame Weber-"

A much smaller hat inset with intricate gems.

"And finally, our learning advisor, Dame Weber."

She plops her usual hat back onto her head.

"Now, let's get down to business..."

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It's like that CK2 king who appoints his horse to the council.

"Is he indulging in mannish humor, perhaps?"
"My king..."
"He must be under so much pressure."
"High King Thorgrim must never know. Swear it now, all of you. We will take this to our graves!"

 

[EVA-Saiyajin]

Sorry, I still feel like there's a perspective disconnect.

As another stab at understanding, are you worried that we'll get bogged down with econ responsibilities unrelated to the humans?

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I do have problems with the different perspective, but no.

Think of it like this. You're told you are in charge of managing the humans.

That's it.

Then right as you're thinking of how things can go and mentally revising your vote strategies as far as convincing people and such...

You get told that you're in charge of all economic aspects.

Now, is there a big difference between the two? Yes. And that's my issue, that we were told something very, very different from what we were actually going to get.

Being a leader of a single race in a kingdom is very different from handling every economic aspect.

Being a spymaster handling information and deception and intrigue is very different from commanding whole military forces.

And handling arcane stuff is very different from handling all research and development.

 

[veekie]

On Learning advisor posts...remember back in Abelhelm's council?
The Learning Advisor was Schultz, an architect, who spent most of his time mapping the castle, building extensions and upgrading defensive holdings, not doing R&D. Abelhelm used him mainly as an additional Stewardship Advisor in effect.

So I believe its basically:
-Dwarf Engineer - Mainly assigned tasks regarding providing more warmachines to Eight Peaks, especially Gyrocopters. If Mathilde is holding the post the job will go to the Martial or Stewardship advisor instead
-Runesmith - Mainly assigned tasks regarding additional runic gear, runic wards, and such. If Mathilde is holding the post the job will go to the Martial or Stewardship advisor instead
-Wizard - Mainly assigned tasks regarding investigating lingering Greenskin, Skaven or Waystone weird shit, doubling up as a secondary Martial or Intrigue advisor for the purpose of actively doing weird shit to people.


Also re-reading I can't believe we never found anything odd of Abelhelm being so incredibly well informed about magical matters and methodologies whenever it came up, while simultaneously fairly ignorant of academic custom and social circles.

 

[Guile]

The key words there being "The first obedience of every Magister must be to the ideals and laws of Sigmar's Holy Empire". Considering how often the leaders of said Empire act against its best interests, I don't think keeping shit to ourselves is particularly controversial. If we tell people and they act on it, that could severely damage the relationship between the race, which is obviously outside the interests of our home.

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Those dumb Grey Wizards would probably screw everything up if we told them anything! Only we can be trusted to act in the best interests of the Empire.