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Warhammer Fantasy: Divided Loyalties - an Advisor's Quest

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[X] [SEVIROSCOPE] Visual
[X] [RIDER] The Dämmerlichtreiter
[X] [RIDER] A rider formed of shadows wearing robes and a Witch Hunter's hat on a Shadowsteed, with their face perpetually obscured by mists and a cloak of mist trailing from their shoulders.
[X] [RIDER] Mist-shrouded Grey Wizard on a Shadowsteed
[X] [RIDER] Knight
-[X] Conventional Empire (Mathilde's Heraldry)
[X] [RIDER] Knight
-[X] Conventional Empire
[-] [RIDER] Mathilde on a Shadowsteed
[X] [RIDER] Mounted Wraiths
 
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Abhorsen said:
No. No they are not. Because the story would be X lost control, not X purposely attacked the Imperial army. I'm not completely sold on Hexwraiths, but they are far, far better than grey wizards, which is just asking for Dieter 2: electric boogaloo next Emperor.

As for Hexwraiths looking demonish, we were told by Boney that those in the know would be able to tell the difference. And for those not in the know? Mathilde is the most famous wizard in Sylvania, known for ending the vampire countess. We are the most likely to get away with it. If anything, it's more a not-undead than a not-demon. And since ours isn't skeletal, it deals with that problem as well.
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Summoning some not daemons you're too incompetent to control isn't much better. And there are excuses for attacking your allies as well. I'm pretty sure there's enemy magic that can make it happen

And most people; even most generals, wouldn't be in the know. A witch hunter near Sylvania probably would, but the great majority of soldiers and commanders in the Old World would never need to know the details and would have no one who knew to teach them. The issue the wizard has to deal with isn't professional licensed Cult witch hunters, but superstitious soldiers he had to somehow coordinate with.

These kind of details are probably mostly hidden esoteric knowledge. IC, people don't have the rule books or wiki. Only specialist scholars and experts would have access to the handwritten and drawn texts that describe these things.
 
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Personally, I'm not going for Mounted Wraiths because of the Hexwraith issue that was brought up. Even as a mistake the uneducated would make the fact that it would be made is... yeah. Half of it is that Mathilde already knows too much about necromancy. She could certainly explain something that looks kinda-sorta like necromancy away, but I'm worried this summon might mean she would have to.

Beyond that, with so many people bringing up the prospect of passing said spell down that also comes into it. Lord Magister Mathilde Weber might be able to explain it away, but would every wizard after her?

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Regardless when this came I up I decided I wanted to pick four broad options that each tied into Mathilde's legend in some way, and this vote has definitely delivered.

[X] [RIDER] The Dämmerlichtreiter
On the minus side being Mathilde on shadowsteed means it can't be passed down. On the plus side, doppelganger utility. On the third side, it's The Dämmerlichtreiter.

Overall I'm fine not passing the spell down if it comes to that.

[X] [RIDER] Orc on a Chonky Boar
The prospect of calling in a Very Lost Orc was hilarious when it first came up, and it remains hilarious now. Also, plausible deniability! Who would expect a Boar Boy to show up out of nowhere and pick a side to fight on? No one. Who would be surprised? Also no one. The fact that it was once a Red Rider will probably only make it faster.

Yeah, this is the option I'm picking because I'm laughing too hard not to, but I think it holds up even past the joke.

[X] [RIDER] Spider
The We would like to play. This seems like something that would start interesting on its own and get much more so in multiples. One spider? Probably quite useful is caves, hallways and in marginal utility countering Big foes. Calling up multiple spiders? Oh no.

[] [RIDER] A man who could look like a depiction of Ranald, though there's a lot of ambiguity about it due to the smoke drifitng around him partially obscuring his face at all times, in a knight costume, wielding swords, riding a horse-sized housecat.
[X] [RIDER] Great Cat Knight
I feel like Ranald would find it humorous.
The fact that the Big Cat steed form in general is also also noted as specifically geared towards fighting monsters is something of actual utility too. I imagine that would probably make it less useful in a general Cavalry role, but the tradeoff of something significantly more useful at protecting friendly forces from giant monsters is interesting.

EDIT: Okay it's been pointed out that this is more anti-single target and anti-Skaven. Not keen on the former, moreso on the latter.

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[X] [SEVIROSCOPE] Auditory
Geiger Counters!

God they're both so tempting. Whichever one we don't pick now I am definitely voting to do later.
 
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Alratan said:
Summoning some not daemons you're too incompetent to control isn't much better. And there are excuses for attacking your allies as well. I'm pretty sure there's enemy magic that can make it happen
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It's not incompetence. It's a known fact of magic that it goes out of control. A bunch of Mathildes going out of control though? That looks like malice.

Worse, the soldier that just survived the miscast now sees Mathilde's face in his PTSD flashbacks. That's just all kinds of bad.

Alratan said:
And most people; even most generals, wouldn't be in the know. A witch hunter near Sylvania probably would, but the great majority of soldiers and commanders in the Old World would never need to know the details and would have no one who knew to teach them. The issue the wizard has to deal with isn't professional licensed Cult witch hunters, but superstitious soldiers he had to somehow coordinate with.
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There's a difference between a bunch of animals going out of control, and what look like summoned grey wizards acting like Khornate beserkers. I don't know how to make this any clearer.
 
Alratan said:
I have to go back to the question of how anyone she wants to deceive would know the details of how Mathilde's masteries and spells work to know how longe they last and precisely what they do?

This has been blown up, but unless there's something I'm missing it's a completely non-issue.

Mathilde's enemies do not have an internet connection and the ability to read the Spellbook post to learn these details, which is basically what they'd need.

Actually, they'd need more than that. They'd need to know details we don't even know such as the precise duration or triggers that might end a spell or deactivate a mastery.
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My chief concern here is the Rider's use as a pocket mob to throw out while Mathilde tries to run away. I had pictured casting the spell to unleash the Rider as a Smoke and Mirrors trigger, where Mathilde being replaced by an identical Mathilde on a shadowsteed as she teleports away would potentially buy quite a bit of time.

With the masteries non-functional, whoever was fighting Mathilde would immediately recognise that something has changed, even if they don't know what those masteries are.
 
Boney said:
Then that was about a theoretical entirely new spell that would need to be built from scratch, rather than being able to piggyback off the Gehenna's Golden Hounds techniques. Mathilde will be creating a basic 'deploy critter from me with instructions' spell as part of this process that will not be mist-themed and may or may not be Battle Magic.
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Hmm... the implications of this...

Boney, would I be right in assuming we could potentially create multiple different spells using our pet Red Rider? For example, one that just has them charge off and go full murderblender, another that summons a fog bank they can teleport around in, another that has them loan us their weapons, etc? Not necessarily those spells specifically, to be clear- those are just examples to illustrate the sort of variety I'm talking about.
 
[x] [RIDER] Great Cat Knight
[x] [RIDER] Misty Wraith on top of a Giant Wolf
[x] [RIDER] Spider
[x] [RIDER] Wee little Baby Mammoth
[X] [RIDER] Orc on a Chonky Boar
 
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…Okay, but, how many people even know Mathilde's face well enough to say "that's Mathilde Weber attacking empire troops"? Like, if it's Mathilde's own rider, then presumably whoever she's fighting with will know, but she's also around to handle the fallout. Random soldiers across the empire probably wouldn't recognize her?
 
The Phoenixian said:
[X] [RIDER] Orc on a Chonky Boar
The prospect of calling in a Very Lost Orc was hilarious when it first came up, and it remains hilarious now. Also, plausible deniability! Who would expect a Boar Boy to show up out of nowhere and pick a side to fight on? No one. Who would be surprised? Also no one. The fact that it was once a Red Rider will probably only make it faster.

Yeah, this is the option I'm picking because I'm laughing too hard not to, but I think it holds up even past the joke.
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Can't beat a joke that holds up and seems practical. I think the DragonSlayer project was the same thing.

Getting a slayer and turning him into a dragon.
 
The Phoenixian said:
The fact that the Big Cat steed form in general is also also noted as specifically geared towards fighting monsters is something of actual utility too. I imagine that would probably make it less useful in a general Cavalry role, but the tradeoff of something significantly more useful at protecting friendly forces from giant monsters is interesting.
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Wolves are anti-monster. Cats are anti-humanoid. Horse is anti-blob. Thus is the word of Boney.
 
Okay, that's the second meme Boney's made in the last hour about not underestimating the spooky ghost necrofactor. I'm starting to think he might be trying to tell us something.
 
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NSMS said:
Boney, would I be right in assuming we could potentially create multiple different spells using our pet Red Rider? For example, one that just has them charge off and go full murderblender, another that summons a fog bank they can teleport around in, another that has them loan us their weapons, etc? Not necessarily those spells specifically, to be clear- those are just examples to illustrate the sort of variety I'm talking about.
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It's possible, though it depends on the exact details of those spells.
 
SpaceSloth said:
If this was correct, Gehenna would not be alive.
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Or Gehenna just has to manage the reputational consequences of summoning not daemons. Once more there's a huge excluded middle her. Something can be bad and worth avoiding even if it's not instantly lethal.

Alternatively; there can be negative consequences that are worth it, like the potential reputational consequences of the Apparition looking like Mathilde.

As looking blatantly magical doesn't seem to add very much of any utility, then the consequences for that are worth avoiding like looking like a person. Looking like Mathilde is, by contrast; a valuable feature, so it's worth managing the downsides.

In this case, if we can have the Appariton look mundane we don't have to deal with the issues that summoning obvious not-daemons presents. That's better than having to deal with those issues.
Deathbybunnies said:
Actually, for negative tactical gain. One of the advantages of the Rider is that non-magical weapons are going to go through it IIRC, which is unexpected on a generic knight but completely expected for a spooky ghost.
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That can easily be chalked up to Grey battle magic.

Indeed, it's fully consistent with them being Grey wizards on shadow steeds; as they have an Arcane Mark that makes them partially insubstantial and I think shadow steeds are that by default.
 
Alratan said:
Also, we can just bind a second Red Rider and have that assume a generic appearance and share that if people are so concerned, one AP isn't so much as to be out of the realms of possibility. Two riders are almost twice as good as one in many contexts, and a generic rider is almost as useful as a Mathilde one to the Colleges
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Or we could make that one look like, for example... Seija. Or Max. Or Pan.

Fell Nazgul Duckling Club.
 
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