Tbf for most of the people there the chains of events were, the count dies, the Dämmerlichtreiter takes over, and then a part of drakenhof burns down very brightly. Most won't even know about about bright wizard being there.And thus it becomes a matter of how sophisticated you are about wizards, to know that not only did the dammerlichter not do the thing but that she couldn't.
Altdorf attitudes in Sylvanian hamlets.
Warhammer Fantasy: Divided Loyalties - an Advisor's Quest
- Thread starter Boney
- Start date
- Fantasy Users' Choice!
Voted best in category in the Users' Choice awards.
- Location
- being near locations is my passion.
The only collaboration with Telcis the colleges really care abut is stuffing him in a sack and dragging him back, with or without the Fabled Cigarettes and Milk.
Tasoli
Life is for Living
- Location
- Behind the Keyboard.
They probably are not wholly interchangeble but I think AV does allow us to cheat our way to doing some High Magic feats.
From what we saw, you don't. You need a unit of AV to open up a liminal realm. It wasn't inflated by AV though, it was inflated by the Winds that the AV had subsequently turned into.
That means that if you've got a sufficiently large source of the Winds, you can make whatever size of Liminal Realm you like using the same amount of AV. Teclis could use the AV to drill the hole into the liminal, and then plug the output of a Waystone into the hole and use the Winds from there to expand it.
- Location
- Earth
Come to think of it, Mathilde probably could do that nowAnd thus it becomes a matter of how sophisticated you are about wizards, to know that not only did the dammerlichter not do the thing but that she couldn't.
Altdorf attitudes in Sylvanian hamlets.
Mopman43
Mountain-Hermit of Nitpeak
- Location
- Vermont
Light Wizard.
I thought he was a bright.... Well c'est la vie
Mopman43
Mountain-Hermit of Nitpeak
- Location
- Vermont
Nah, light.
In canon he'd eventually set up shop in Templehof and build his own Luminark, but that obviously won't be happening here.
The Phoenixian
The Glacier Witch
- Location
- My own little world
The big issue with speculating about High Magic is that we hasn't actually seen it in person. I think things like its opposition to Dhar and other things we do know from setting lore and history can be used to build up reasonable grounds for theorycrafting, but without actual observation any insight into its mechanisms and limits are just guesses.
With Aetheric Vitae on the other hand, we're at the point where we know a great deal about what it can do and, especially important, it's limits. We're much better equipped to say not only where it could be used, but also where it couldn't be located in order for something or other to be possible. If you can't find a place that fits its handling description, then it can't really be anywhere else. You'd probably have difficulty storing AV in the mono-wind environment of a College, for instance.
Depending on how the AV reacts to High Magic, it might even be possible to rule in or out its use in the creation of the Colleges entirely, just by the precautions needed to work with it.
For instance: Does the Obsidian Hall predate or postdate the rest of the construction of the Colleges? Given how swamped with magic Altdorf is, and especially how swamped it would have been during their creation, it stands to reason that working with any significant quantity of the substance might necessitate a secure storage facility beforehand.
Possible, but it's stuck me that it's also possible the Winds may not continue dissolving into spacetime once the liminal realm is established and connected to (and thus influenced by) reality. I suspect we'll find out if it still works that way if the Liminal Realm investigation goes well.
Hunh. When Boney's quote comes up, I feel like Middenland (home of the Drakwald Forest) could be a good next tributary target.
Thus far we've done Stirland (next to Sylvania and plagued by it) and Kislev (Founding Partner, constantly under threat by Troll Country and Chaos, and the place the Winds of Magic have to get through to reach the Empire.) Drakwald Forest would make for an excellent third "Bang for Buck" option.
Meanwhile, on the political side they're allies of the Eonir and with this we're shoring up the project's internal affairs. Ideally, that could be paired with something dealing with Nordland for the appearance of fairness but I'm not sure any of our actions do that. Closest I can think of is the Forest of Shadows waystone investigation but the Brass Keep is nominally on the the edge of Middenland and the rest of that is all in Ostland.
- Location
- The Surface Of A Hostile Planet
"Obviously"? You fool! Through the Liber Mortis, all things are possible!
- Location
- Outside the Box
- Pronouns
- She/Her
A bit of speculation on that:
Winds become reality. AV turned into Winds automatically, and then in that place, Winds automatically turned into more reality. I'd like to know, does it take an equal portion of all eight Winds to expand a Liminal Realm? Or can only one Wind manage it? Even if it takes all eight Winds, the process happened on its own. It could be that all Algard's experiments are missing is to throw the other seven Winds into the pot. And to make something as big as the Colleges, sending a Waystone's worth of magic (or an entire Nexus's) into a Liminal Realm would provide plenty of energy to inflate it to that size.
Ericwinter
Definitely not a Skaven Infiltrator
- Location
- America
What would Mathilde even do with a large scale liminal realm? Other than flex on Algard, I mean.
- Location
- Outside the Box
- Pronouns
- She/Her
*shrug* For a start, I'd ask Algard what he was planning on doing with liminal realms. I'm sure he's put way more thought into it than Mathilde has. Other than that, attaching it to the gyrocarriage seems like an easy way to get all the storage space Mathilde and WEB-MAT would ever need, though how stable and secure a portable Liminal Realm is is up in the air. Definitely less secure than a mountain, that's for sure.
We have yet to see a movable realm that isn't attached to a half-tree half-elf ladies Soul. I do think that liminal realms don't like to move very much.
- Location
- UK
It's pretty simple in theory to attach a liminal realm to a gyrocarriage then, just use soul glue! Bind an apparition or another soul into an object or cage then attach that to the gyrocarriage. Connect liminal realm to soul.
Of course that's reaching worrying levels of mad science gone wrong movie plot-iness, but what's the point in being a wizard of you can't play hopscotch over good sense?
Of course that's reaching worrying levels of mad science gone wrong movie plot-iness, but what's the point in being a wizard of you can't play hopscotch over good sense?
Parabola
Divided Loyalties Librarian
- Location
- The Destination of Fate
- Pronouns
- She/Her
I think it would make sense to only need all eight Winds at once to create the initial artificial Liminal Realm and then you can expand it using a single Wind (turning it into a mono-wind environment?).
We know via Boney that most of what a Dreaming Wood has is Ghyran, because it's a forest and that's mainly what would pass through a forest's soul. Perhaps that's what lets them grow naturally and safely.
Now, why exactly it is that a forest can naturally create a Liminal Realm in the first place? I dunno.
---
I think I've speculated this before, but maybe Teclis managed to make the Colleges by using the powerstone-creation method on all eight Winds at once - if he didn't have AV, that's the only way I could think of. The Winds would try to reject one another the whole time and would threaten to turn into Dhar, but Qhaysh users might know how to deal with that as part of its whole deal - the whole 'I know how to think in eight different mentalities at the same time' thing.
And perhaps he made the Orbs in a similar way.
- Location
- Actually pretty lost
Y'know, it's interesting that creating a Liminal Realm in one's soul is hindered by there traditionally being a body in the way, whereas apparently you can shove a whole damn hostile entity in there without.. well, maybe not without much trouble, but without that issue apparently being a blocker. I wonder why?
The AV may start being fully in the material realm, which is where it drills the entrance to the liminal from. The Apparition and the wizard's soul may already both be present in the liminal, and the connection made between them there.
Ericwinter
Definitely not a Skaven Infiltrator
- Location
- America
From what I recall, the reason the body being in the way is bad was because that means you're probably feeling emotions, which means AV detonates on contact. Which both means you've got a bunch of winds and not AV, so you can't do the Liminal realm thing, but also probably means you just set off a bunch of different Winds in your soul which—for Wizards—means lots of Dhar in your soul.
Presumably Apparitions don't explode into Winds on contact with emotional beings.
- Location
- Chicago
- Pronouns
- She/They
My bet is it's like Vlag on a smaller scale- the entity swaps it's 'location' in the warp with the soul's location inn the warp, and uses that to exist in the body.
The implication being that a benevolent possession needs a supply of magic to exist, but a malevolent possession can probably burn away the body (and soul?) as a slow sacrifice to fuel itself indefinitely.
So the theory is sorta testable.
Oh! The other thing, which the comment right above sparked, is that we know that the association of the winds with emotions is separate from and prior to reality, because it exists in the winds before they become the winds and have reality stamped on them.
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Not necessarily. There may be something that causes raw AV to decompose into the Winds, but the cleavage points and associations of each Wind may be determined by the nature of mortal belief as reflection in that AV.
If the beliefs of people who live in reality shape the Aethyr, nothing can be prior to it.
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- Location
- The Surface Of A Hostile Planet
Here's some vague turnplanning from me.
Turn 43 (2491)
-[ ] MAX: Receive Dictation: AV Book
-[ ] Apparition Binding (COIN: Gambler?)
-[ ] Create Orbs of Sorcery Solo
-[ ] Waystone: Foundation Prototype (?)
-[ ] FLEX SLOT
-[ ] EIC: Insert agents into a particular province, cult, company, or institution to start gathering their secrets. (Nordland)
-[ ] KAU: Begin copying the full corpus of a Partner Library. (Aquila Academy of Nuln)
-[ ] SERENITY: Coins of Nehekhara's Fifth Dynasty
-[ ] Eike Actions: Nordland Infiltration, Morbs
-[ ] Eike Study: Infiltration and Tradecraft, with the Hochlander
Reasoning:
Morbs+AV Book for the flex, plus Apparition Binding, plus Waystone, doesn't leave many actions left. We might need to do another Foundation Prototype action, but if we don't, we can jump straight to building a Waystone.
I'll leave the last spot as a flex for now, since maybe some stuff will come up, but using WEB-MAT for that action would be highly efficient. Maybe mapping Tilea and Estalia, so we have a full look into how the Old World connects to Ulthuan?
Turn 44 (2491.5)
-[ ] Waystone: Build a Waystone (?)
-[ ] Attempt to bring a non-Order magical tradition into the Waystone Project (Damsels) (Coin: Father)
-[ ] Waystone: Nexuses (Forest of Shadows) (Askel)
-[ ] Enter into negotiations with the Druchii delegation to Laurelorn
-[ ] Attempt to help House Orodreth find a way to benefit from the expansion of the walls.
-[ ] EIC: Assist with the House Orodreath negotiations???
-[ ] Eike Actions: Orodreth Negotiations, visit Bretonnia with us (but stay behind in a town/village if we do Iron Orcs)
-[ ] Eike Study: Diplomacy and negotiations
Reasoning:
This is a setup turn for Ulthuan negotiations. If when we go talk to the Asur, we have:
a). A working waystone prototype
b). Buy-in from the Empire, Laurelorn, Kislev, Bretonnia, and the Karaz Ankor
c). A credible threat of getting the info from the Druchii instead
Then their ability to actually put a halt to the project is highly constrained, and they may be "forced" to cooperate.
Beyond that, this attempts to leverage the Father face of the coin to its fullest potential, so we do the Damsels, House Orodreth (Lileath worshippers in favor of outside contact who haven't set up any trade agreements yet), and the Forest of Shadows is home to the Ostland Hedgewise (Haletha worshippers we haven't made contact with). (Note that Orodreth are originally from Nagarythe, so dealing with them might actually be semi-relevant to the Elfcation.)
I'm intentionally not using the Overwork action, so we can use it on:
Turn 45 (2492)
-[ ][ ][ ] Travel to Nagarythe at the invitation of Ambassador Daroir, and join their eternal war against Naggarothi invaders for three months. (Coin: Protector)
-[ ] OVERWORK: SOMETHING WAYSTONES
-[ ] Waystone: Leyline Keyphrase Negotiation (Ulthuan)
-[ ] JOHANN: Help negotiate some relevant deals in Lothern??
-[ ] Eike Actions: Give her an independent mission in Lothern, dock marks if she goes to Johann.
-[ ] Eike Study: Sailing
Reasoning:
This is a payoff turn. We do the long awaited elfcation, with the Coin on Protector, and then reinvest every scrap of goodwill we can get, plus our prior setup and leverage, into doing keyphrase negotiation with Ulthuan, so we can kick the project into high gear. Eike gets to come along since she has an interest in sailing anyway (which is fairly relevant to someone who will inheirit a trade company), she speaks Eltharin, and when else is she going to get a chance to visit Ulthuan? Johann has good diplomacy, he can probably do some relevant wheeling-and-dealing in Lothern and can be a backup contact for Eike if stuff goes wrong. Stretch goal would be if he negotiates something that makes the later Ulthuan passphrase negotiations go more smoothly.
Turn 43 (2491)
-[ ] MAX: Receive Dictation: AV Book
-[ ] Apparition Binding (COIN: Gambler?)
-[ ] Create Orbs of Sorcery Solo
-[ ] Waystone: Foundation Prototype (?)
-[ ] FLEX SLOT
-[ ] EIC: Insert agents into a particular province, cult, company, or institution to start gathering their secrets. (Nordland)
-[ ] KAU: Begin copying the full corpus of a Partner Library. (Aquila Academy of Nuln)
-[ ] SERENITY: Coins of Nehekhara's Fifth Dynasty
-[ ] Eike Actions: Nordland Infiltration, Morbs
-[ ] Eike Study: Infiltration and Tradecraft, with the Hochlander
Reasoning:
Morbs+AV Book for the flex, plus Apparition Binding, plus Waystone, doesn't leave many actions left. We might need to do another Foundation Prototype action, but if we don't, we can jump straight to building a Waystone.
I'll leave the last spot as a flex for now, since maybe some stuff will come up, but using WEB-MAT for that action would be highly efficient. Maybe mapping Tilea and Estalia, so we have a full look into how the Old World connects to Ulthuan?
Turn 44 (2491.5)
-[ ] Waystone: Build a Waystone (?)
-[ ] Attempt to bring a non-Order magical tradition into the Waystone Project (Damsels) (Coin: Father)
-[ ] Waystone: Nexuses (Forest of Shadows) (Askel)
-[ ] Enter into negotiations with the Druchii delegation to Laurelorn
-[ ] Attempt to help House Orodreth find a way to benefit from the expansion of the walls.
-[ ] EIC: Assist with the House Orodreath negotiations???
-[ ] Eike Actions: Orodreth Negotiations, visit Bretonnia with us (but stay behind in a town/village if we do Iron Orcs)
-[ ] Eike Study: Diplomacy and negotiations
Reasoning:
This is a setup turn for Ulthuan negotiations. If when we go talk to the Asur, we have:
a). A working waystone prototype
b). Buy-in from the Empire, Laurelorn, Kislev, Bretonnia, and the Karaz Ankor
c). A credible threat of getting the info from the Druchii instead
Then their ability to actually put a halt to the project is highly constrained, and they may be "forced" to cooperate.
Beyond that, this attempts to leverage the Father face of the coin to its fullest potential, so we do the Damsels, House Orodreth (Lileath worshippers in favor of outside contact who haven't set up any trade agreements yet), and the Forest of Shadows is home to the Ostland Hedgewise (Haletha worshippers we haven't made contact with). (Note that Orodreth are originally from Nagarythe, so dealing with them might actually be semi-relevant to the Elfcation.)
I'm intentionally not using the Overwork action, so we can use it on:
Turn 45 (2492)
-[ ][ ][ ] Travel to Nagarythe at the invitation of Ambassador Daroir, and join their eternal war against Naggarothi invaders for three months. (Coin: Protector)
-[ ] OVERWORK: SOMETHING WAYSTONES
-[ ] Waystone: Leyline Keyphrase Negotiation (Ulthuan)
-[ ] JOHANN: Help negotiate some relevant deals in Lothern??
-[ ] Eike Actions: Give her an independent mission in Lothern, dock marks if she goes to Johann.
-[ ] Eike Study: Sailing
Reasoning:
This is a payoff turn. We do the long awaited elfcation, with the Coin on Protector, and then reinvest every scrap of goodwill we can get, plus our prior setup and leverage, into doing keyphrase negotiation with Ulthuan, so we can kick the project into high gear. Eike gets to come along since she has an interest in sailing anyway (which is fairly relevant to someone who will inheirit a trade company), she speaks Eltharin, and when else is she going to get a chance to visit Ulthuan? Johann has good diplomacy, he can probably do some relevant wheeling-and-dealing in Lothern and can be a backup contact for Eike if stuff goes wrong. Stretch goal would be if he negotiates something that makes the later Ulthuan passphrase negotiations go more smoothly.
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Mopman43
Mountain-Hermit of Nitpeak
- Location
- Vermont
We're on Turn 42 right now, that should be Turn 43.
- Location
- The Surface Of A Hostile Planet
Fixed, thanks.