Mopman43
Mountain-Hermit of Nitpeak
- Location
- Vermont
We're making money off the trade route, so they definitely aren't getting it for free.
And I'm pretty sure Eike explicitly said that the laborers getting it upriver are paid?
Warhammer Fantasy: Divided Loyalties - an Advisor's Quest
- Thread starter Boney
- Start date
- Fantasy Users' Choice!
Voted best in category in the Users' Choice awards.
And I'm pretty sure Eike explicitly said that the laborers getting it upriver are paid?
... if the EIC stops selling it would be absolutely trivial to source from erengrad ... And with update I meant the turn... Also they do actually pay the EIC for the charcoal... As for the amount? They probably won't actually use it that much because magic bows are kinda part of their thing.
- Location
- Chicago
- Pronouns
- She/They
So... What do the other three integrationist houses want?
The issue is that Laurelorn is an autokracy- they make everything they need internally, and that's been stable and capable of meeting all their needs for hundreds of years. So there's just not much demand. Creating demand is the necessary first step if you want trade to increase.
- Location
- North Wales
- Pronouns
- He/Him/His
For what it's worth, the word for a self-contained economy is "autarky".
I mean they're something of an autocracy too, what with having a queen and all, but she does have some checks on her power.
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Talking of trade, merchants want their wagons/ships to be filled on both legs of their journey.
It doesn't make sense to sail empty ships to Erengrad, or when the RoW bridge is built to run empty wagons back from Tor Lithanel. The owners of them are going to want to fill them with something they can sell to increase profits on their trip.
Even if it's only a side business, I'd expect that the first Eonir captain to sail into Erengrad will have a hold full of elven craftworks to sell there, and things will snowball from there. Then, shortly after the first wagons cross the Scadensumpf, someone's going to have the bright idea of buying goods transported from Erengrad to Tor Lithanel and selling them to the merchants who own the wagons going south.
Things will then snowball from there. If you have coastal ships going to Erengrad, you can just as easily send them west to the Bretonnian ports and trade with them.
It doesn't make sense to sail empty ships to Erengrad, or when the RoW bridge is built to run empty wagons back from Tor Lithanel. The owners of them are going to want to fill them with something they can sell to increase profits on their trip.
Even if it's only a side business, I'd expect that the first Eonir captain to sail into Erengrad will have a hold full of elven craftworks to sell there, and things will snowball from there. Then, shortly after the first wagons cross the Scadensumpf, someone's going to have the bright idea of buying goods transported from Erengrad to Tor Lithanel and selling them to the merchants who own the wagons going south.
Things will then snowball from there. If you have coastal ships going to Erengrad, you can just as easily send them west to the Bretonnian ports and trade with them.
- Location
- Leeds
Well, they want to not be left behind, so worst case they could sell those to the others?
Feels like this is a survive vs thrive thing. No they don't need outsiders, but if you're familiar with the concept of comparative advantage even if we begin with from the premise that elves can do everything better than humans can, there can still be more net productivity by specialising in the things where they have the greatest advantage.
And yes, they do want things, don't think that I didn't notice you skip over the list of goods I suggested they want.
If they're that much better at things comparative advantage won't be that impactful once transportation costs are also factored in.
Sure they want some stuff - but that's raw resources they don't have at all; spices; silver; gems. Perhaps they're going to want metal and coal as well and since their products are very high quality the Eonir will be able to pay a lot for it.
However as large as that trade will be for individuals it may not be really impactful on the macro level.
- Location
- Chicago
- Pronouns
- She/They
The things you've said they want are all raw materials that are going to be used internally, not producing trade goods and not sending anything back out. They are paying with cash at this point, after all.
So these could very easily be viewed as the kingdom making a few one-off purchases for themselves, rather than the start of two-way trade.
There's a pretty large difference between a kingdom that sells a few masterworks every so often to buy charcoal, and one that has warehouses and dedicated merchants for imports, and factories built for exports. The first is limited and will not expand on it's own. The second will. Assuming that the first is actually the second is asking for disappointment.
So these could very easily be viewed as the kingdom making a few one-off purchases for themselves, rather than the start of two-way trade.
There's a pretty large difference between a kingdom that sells a few masterworks every so often to buy charcoal, and one that has warehouses and dedicated merchants for imports, and factories built for exports. The first is limited and will not expand on it's own. The second will. Assuming that the first is actually the second is asking for disappointment.
This is interesting since the Eonir shouldn't have a lot of cash. They're not in a metal rich area (by Warhammer standards) and a lot of their precious metals go towards their Waystones and since they're isolationists the only value their coins have is the metal in them; they won't be accepted as tender by other polities and the current people who can directly trade with the Eonir are a bare handful of wizards and a handful of dwarfs.
- Location
- North Wales
- Pronouns
- He/Him/His
It's been noted that the cash reserves that they're currently spending were built up over many centuries, and the outflow is way larger than is sustainable at the rate it was being added to their stockpile.
Huh... now that I think about it copying books for our library might be the one way the Eonir - and especially commoners - can gain foreign currency.
Mathilde may be singlehandedly responsible for propping up Eonir foreign trade as a side effect of building a massive library.
Mathilde may be singlehandedly responsible for propping up Eonir foreign trade as a side effect of building a massive library.
As we've seen this last social turn, Tor Lithanel is about to expand, and a bunch of Major Houses are using trade to make up for the influence lost from that shattering of the status quo. They're not just interested in a few one-off trades, they are intending to import metals and stones and luxury runes at scale, and they'll keep importing them because the political power of the Major Houses that made those trade deals rely on it.
They will have to start trading at some point. But at the price point elven goods can be sold at they probably don't need much to feed their base resource needs. And then the question really becomes "what has the empire to offer."
- Guns are a thing where we are currently ahead and they will take a century or so to catch up without help
- stonework maybe? They don't have much of that.
- annnnd I'm out of ideas...
- Guns are a thing where we are currently ahead and they will take a century or so to catch up without help
- stonework maybe? They don't have much of that.
- annnnd I'm out of ideas...
- Location
- Leeds
Yeah and normally I wouldn't grant that, especially when theres dwarven competition, but I was being very generous.
If you want me to be less generous, the labour cost of a bunch of humans is far lower than a city or forest elfs, and their unwillingness to damage the forest means they would struggle to compete against mining or logging enterprises.
Spices are trade goods... I'm pretty sure this was a big thing historically. Spice trade - Wikipedia Got no idea how you forgot that one.
And apart from the marble for the walls (and I'm being generous, even stone buildings need constant maintenance) nothing there was a one off purchase. You need to replace charcoal after you burn it you can't burn the same piece indefinetly. When you make something out of an ingot, you need a new ingot or you need to break whatever you made. And the less said about eating "Only consumed once" spices the better.
I also
They do not have infinite cash, even though we've somehow moved on from the idea of trading through Laurelorn rather than just with them at somepoint they're going to have to do something to balance that trade deficit.
- Location
- North Wales
- Pronouns
- He/Him/His
Much of it will involve throwing a bunch of things at the wall as novelties ("leather made from cows, how exotic!") and seeing what ends up finding a sustainable niche within their society.
There will be many traders making quick fortunes and then losing them again as fashions change and they're stuck with piles of what they thought were a sure thing given how well they sold in the City last year.
That kind of thing isn't something Mathilde needs to get involved in though, I think. It'll work out, or it won't. Smoothing over the trade routes and diplomatic barriers is the bigger thing she can be doing rather than picking winners and losers among the products on offer.
Yes, but how much charcoal can you buy with one really pretty table made by elf's? Because that's our point. The eonir might buy lots of raw materials (which I kinda count spices under? They can only be used to produce things) but those are relatively cheap to procure (aside from the spice, though it's actually local spices currently so go figure). So what else has the empire to offer that isn't lumber? Because their not selling stone to the eonir, that's the dwarfs.
- Location
- Finland
Gold, Silver, Exotic Human Art, Tea/Coffee (imported from elsewhere)...
Unless they limit trade, lot of elves will find the Empire a good source of wealth, either by making goods to sell, or selling goods made by others, and those goods require materials to produce.
Unless they limit trade, lot of elves will find the Empire a good source of wealth, either by making goods to sell, or selling goods made by others, and those goods require materials to produce.
The Empire would actually have a comparative advantage in selling some types of stone - Karak Azul is extremely far away and whilst other Karaks are nearer the Empire is nearer still and has the advantage of being able to set taxes.
Besides that the Eonir have a lot of unfulfilled need for raw materials and a lot of superhumanly skilled labour whilst the Empire has a lot of raw materials and very few craftsmen that are anywhere near the level of the Eonir.
For the Dawi there's less need for trade: they're really good at crafting and can also get stuff from the Empire.
Unless we want to make a lot of money. I'm not too fussed about it personally but the option is there.
Grains, probably. Wool. Maybe live animals to be slaughtered. Possibly wine from Bretonnia. Uncut gemstones.
- Location
- Leeds
:l
what the hell are we even arguing at this point, it feels like the conversations drifting as we disagree with the latest point on the principle that we disagreed with the earlier one. So this all started from here:
So now we agree that the
That the elves don't have sufficient manpower to act as a middle man?
That you think relying on a foreign port is worse than no trade or relying on a foreign port that we have been at war with historically and that we should stop the Barak Varr canal before its too late?
That even if they don't engage in the trade themselves the elves wouldn't be interested in extracting a toll off of cargo passing through?
That this city doesn't have sufficient demand to purchase literally everything the empire produces so its not worth doing?
That yes, there are no trade goods the elves are interested in importing despite the fact that either they or the dwarves reached out to arrange the runic good trade?
That luxury good trade doesn't have the same bulk amounts as charcoal therefore??? something? As for how much charcoal, approximately 20 times as much as they import in ores or ingots? Rough guess, this isn't my speciality subject. Expedition Magazine - Penn Museum
Are you arguing that we shouldn't do the RWoad(I think I like that the most) or that we should do it or you're agnostic towards it, but there'll be no trade on it?
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- Location
- Finland
Grain, wool and live animals might get some restrictions placed on them.
At least early on (from elf perspective).
Because as noted in the spice selling event, they will not want to become reliant on basic survival.
So large part of trade is probably going to be things that are nice to have, but not critical not to.
Or things that can be worked on and then exported for profit.
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Also, with the port, it is not just empire they are trading with.
They can also trade with Kislev, and more importantly, Karaz Ankor, and through them, rest of the world.
At least early on (from elf perspective).
Because as noted in the spice selling event, they will not want to become reliant on basic survival.
So large part of trade is probably going to be things that are nice to have, but not critical not to.
Or things that can be worked on and then exported for profit.
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Also, with the port, it is not just empire they are trading with.
They can also trade with Kislev, and more importantly, Karaz Ankor, and through them, rest of the world.
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Parabola
Divided Loyalties Librarian
- Location
- The Destination of Fate
- Pronouns
- She/Her
The Empire also recently found a lot of marble from the Reikland nexus. Mathilde noted the Eonir might be willing to buy some. That's probably happening in the background.
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- Location
- Before the Ninth Gate
See, the thing is embezzling has an inherent problem in that's a hook. A hook that anyone can use. It's a good idea to shore this up unless people we don't like get their hooks in.
On top of that, people who are fine embezzling to make money are more likely to be those who are fine doing other worse things to make a profit.
They can trade with Bretonnia as well. Couronne isn't much further from Laurelorn by ship than Erengrad.
- Location
- New Brunswick, NJ
- Pronouns
- He/Him/His
Sure, but that's what the Internal Affairs decision is for: to catch the people doing the bad things. I care about those, I don't care about the embezzlement.
That said, assigning Eike to shadow Internal Affairs and assist with their investigations actually sounds like a really good idea for Eike Study one of these days. It's standard Grey Order work, but in the context of the EIC.