Warhammer Fantasy: Divided Loyalties - an Advisor's Quest

[Parabola]

I'm inclined to hope that if a full set of Morbs is impressive enough, we could just ask for every single College book that we are missing.

By my calculations, counting every topic we have incomplete (or of which we have none at all) and that we know the Colleges have, there's 76 points' worth of books remaining. Skipping over some of the math, if we wished to obtain them via KAU, it would take six turns of doing so. And if we wished to buy them out-of-pocket, they would cost 3800 gc and 86 CF, a tremendous amount we couldn't afford on our own.

Maybe even more than that, if that includes topics we don't know 100% the College has anything on, like Gut Magic, Ice Witch Magic, or Hag Witch Magic. And maybe that could include a handful of mundane topics, from the Ancient Library of Carroburg? I don't know. But one of the possible prices for giving Feldmann our large Skaven loot was a big library, so shrug. This should be on the same level.

 

[DragonParadox]

Just catching up and really tired from traveling today so apologies in advance if this is disjointed, but one point about Mathilde and risk that has not been made is that we do not take risks lightly or without seeking every advantage. I mean going back to our fight with Drycha, we had the change to go hunting her, or to meet her much earlier than the update in which we actually confronted her, but we chose that moment because we knew she had misjudged the Kislevites and would be distracted with the battle

With non-mist battle magic there is no mitigation, you roll the dice and you are as likely to explode into daemons as Hans the Generic Battle Mage and I will remind you Hans' lifespan on average once he has become a battle mage is about a decade.

Actually no we do not have as much of a chance of dying my miscast as a generic battle mage because they get battle magic specific traits that help them mitigate some of the risk. Mathilde would have as much of a chance of exploding as inexpert battle mage.

 

[Altom]

With the Everchosen coming, I think that we do need some more BM. We are a wizard lord and as such pretty high on the mobilisation list. We are not sitting that one out.

 

[Imugi]

You wouldn't, because the Empire isn't stupid enough to put the R&D of one of their major military assets at the mercy of the whims of venture capital. One of the whole points of the Colleges as an institution is to make sure promising research actually gets done. The bleeding edge of pocket dimension research is what Algard has: stationary pockets inside a magic-rich environment that collapse if the wrong magic gets too close.

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It takes more than just the right laboratory set-up to be able to replicate and then leapfrog any given magical feat. Algard has achieved what he has achieved because he has spent very many years studying the nature of the Grey College and other dimensional oddities and attempting to replicate it. It is the product of a lifetime of obsessive dedication to the field of magical architecture. Mathilde has no novel insight or new piece of the puzzle that will allow her to catch up to him and then leave him in the dust in a month or two of effort, so step one to outdoing him would be to spend a lifetime obsessively dedicated to the field of magical architecture.

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As an aside Mathilde has surpassed Algard in pocket dimension creation or I guess will soon surpass him if she can create one without any demons appearing. She will remain at the forefront right til she releases her book on AV which will then lead to her being surpassed by Algard.

 

[Sa'kage]

While i am personally really interested in learning new magic, it should be noted that if Mathilde is the one in middle of army battle doing grand battle magic something is really messed up. Mathilde should always come second to actual dedicated battle mages whom undoubtable got several skill that makes battle magic more effective/safer for them.

Mathilde's strength lies more in actual being sword wizard, fighting hero one on one, instead of devouring armies from what i've seen. There is always battle wizards, but dedicated hero wizard fighters aren't as common. I do really wanna learn battle magic, but less so because i think it's gonna make Mathilde an more effective unit and more on just grounds of it being neat.

 

[MossPiglet]

I would like to hold on to the Orbs at least until we know if we can get the passwords for the Elven network and what price we would have to pay. So far they seem like the most flexible (although really expensive) method to create new Leylines. I tried to find the discussion about using them for that purpose when it first came up , did we get any indication how long a leyline we could construct with them if we expend all 8 and if using them just to make reality more malleable would be repeatable with the same set as long we we got enough power in some other way to establish the stream? Basically bury them -> make a leyline -> once the stream is established get them back and repeat, no clue if that is feasible.

All of the headpats > some of the headpats.

I rest my case.

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Does Mathilde really need headpats that much anymore? She has the acknowledgment and respect of her peers, basically the highest job title she can get if she doesn't want to deal with a lot more paperwork and admin, and is friends with royalty. And I really don't like using them as measuring stick for our success. They are great when they come as a happy side effect for doing good work, but making them the objective feels like putting the cart before the horse.

A job performed well needs to be its own reward, for we so rarely see any other."

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[DragonParadox]

With the Everchosen coming, I think that we do need some more BM. We are a wizard lord and as such pretty high on the mobilisation list. We are not sitting that one out.

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I mean sure we will be called on to help, we will want to help, but why with battle magic? I mean by that logic you could say 'I think that we do need some more marksmanship training. We are a wizard lord and as such pretty high on the mobilization list'. We are not sitting that one out.' It is not as though battle magic is inherently a skill that trumps all others in relation to everchosen.

 

[K von Carstein]

I would like to hold on to the Orbs at least until we know if we can get the passwords for the Elven network and what price we would have to pay. So far they seem like the most flexible (although really expensive) method to create new Leylines. I tried to find the discussion about using them for that purpose when it first came up , did we get any indication how long a leyline we could construct with them if we expend all 8 and if using them just to make reality more malleable would be repeatable with the same set as long we we got enough power in some other way to establish the stream? Basically bury them -> make a leyline -> once the stream is established get them back and repeat, no clue if that is feasible.

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Orbs of Sorcery can create new leylines? I'm pretty sure we have seen nothing saying it's the case.

 

[Retrueno]

About the risks of Mathilde casting BM like Pit of Shades (outside of learning it I mean):

Personally I trust Mathilde (and Boney) I'm combat, if Mathilde is at a point where she decides that using Pit of Shades or Penumbral Pendulum over other things then I trust is the best decision she could do to win and survive the fight.

Honestly I find it a bit ridiculous the idea that just because Mathilde knows Penumbral Pendulum she will go spamming it or use it liberally as if she didn't know the risks associated with it without heavily considering other options first.

 

[Zaratustra]

Mark be down on the 'no battle magic camp'. Mathilde is too personally valuable to blow up casting Penumbral Pendulum or something and it would narratively speaking be a miserable way to die, not to mention undermining her legacy of 'safe wizardry with dwarfs'.

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Okay I have to add my two cents because this is the thing that fells disingenous about the anti-Battle Magic camp, this certainty that if we learn battlemagic that will be the way we die, that there is no situation where knowing would be usefull because we would be dead either way, ignoring everyone alive who knows battle magic. Is a spell we want to learn, not a suicide vest we are bolting on our chest.

With non-mist battle magic there is no mitigation, you roll the dice and you are as likely to explode into daemons as Hans the Generic Battle Mage and I will remind you Hans' lifespan on average once he has become a battle mage is about a decade.

Actually no we do not have as much of a chance of dying my miscast as a generic battle mage because they get battle magic specific traits that help them mitigate some of the risk. Mathilde would have as much of a chance of exploding as inexpert battle mage.

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Like this, it king ignores basicaly almost every advantage we have to create a worst case scenario, because we do have a lot of advantages you are not mentioning, yes we like to mitigate risks, but when casting Battle Magic the Staff of Mistery isn't the only thing doing work.

First and foremost, we are a Lady Magister with Magic 9 and 29 learning we are objectively better than most at casting magic, that is the very first mitigation that gives us a much higher chance of casting than you average battle wizard.

Second, we are a Lady Magister, doesn't matter if the average Battle wizard has the lifespan of a decade, they are casting battle magic all the time, every month of every year, even if learn the entire spellbook how often do we get in a situation where casting would evne be an option, evey two years ? four ? And we probably won't even take the option most of the time, so thats the second mitigation, the fact we won't be taking those danger nowhere as often.

Seriously comparing the potential lifespan of the average battle wizard with a Lord Magister that knows battle magic is just insulting, its better at the start and will get better when we get traits from knowing battle magic.

And third and lastly before I forget is all our learning infrastructure, our dwarven enhanced rooms and coin of Ranald tremendously boosting our chances above what all those other people have, that is significant because the first casting is the most dangerous one, as we had to roll even for the mist spells.
Is there still some danger? Yes like with all magic, and like with all magic we have mitigated that risk as far as we could. Learning Battle Magic is no more a guarante we will explode than everything else.

 

[Altom]

I mean sure we will be called on to help, we will want to help, but why with battle magic? I mean by that logic you could say 'I think that we do need some more marksmanship training. We are a wizard lord and as such pretty high on the mobilisation list. We are not sitting that one out.' It is not as though battle magic is inherently a skill that trumps all others in relation to everchosen.

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Because we are a wizard? When it gets to big armeis smashing into each other, something that is pretty much inevitable when facing an Everchosen, two main things expected from spellcasters are: spells powerful enough to affect entire units of soldiers (=battle magic) and dispelling enemy casters' attempts to do the same. I don't think we have a way to train dispelling, although I would be up for it if such option appears, therefore the best way we can prepare is more BM.

 

[Gavin Prince]

Not sure Melkoth is any better at teaching regular battle magic than any other wizard who knows it? He had an extra boost to Melkoth's because he's really really good at it.

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There's established CF rates for tuition from Journeyman/Magister/Lord Magister. Mechanically, the boost is higher for each tier. And if you're splurging for the Lord Magister tuition on battle magic, it makes sense to pick the Lord Magister in charge of Battle Magic to learn from.

 

[DragonParadox]

Because we are a wizard? When it gets to big armeis smashing into each other, something that is pretty much inevitable when facing an Everchosen, two main things expected from spellcasters are: spells powerful enough to affect entire units of soldiers (=battle magic) and dispelling enemy casters' attempts to do the same. I don't think we have a way to train dispelling, although I would be up for it if such option appears, therefore the best way we can prepare is more BM.

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I mean sure we are a wizard, but we are not a battle wizard, we are a very good military commander and a scary assassin, I suspect the Empire has far fewer of both, not to mention in the same person than it does Ulgu Battle mages. Mathilde is probably better at dispelling Dhar than most battle mages already and the Everchosen's armies would be using Dhar.

 

[CornyBones]

-Light Magister Jovi Sunscryer fumbles something and explodes an entire district into burning light. Thus he is not around to heal Abelhelm, who then dies. Later, Boney tells us that that district occasionally bursts into flames, but (IIRC) only during sunny days, which are rare in Sylvania.

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Is Mathilde's experience expanded enough that she could investigate and find what went wrong? Or is that just wishfull thinking that her area of expertise would be parallel enough to it to allow for a investigation over a (ooc) idle curiosity

 

[DragonParadox]

Is Mathilde's experience expanded enough that she could investigate and find what went wrong? Or is that just wishfull thinking that her area of expertise would be parallel enough to it to allow for a investigation over a (ooc) idle curiosity

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He failed at Light Magic very very badly at... almost the worst moment (he only died, rather than getting dragged into the Aethyr by daemons). This is a normal thing that happens consistently to wizards to who screw up battle magic.

 

[Altom]

I mean sure we are a wizard, but we are not a battle wizard, we are a very good military commander and a scary assassin, I suspect the Empire has far fewer of both, not to mention in the same person than it does Ulgu Battle mages. Mathilde is probably better at dispelling Dhar than most battle mages already and the Everchosen's armies would be using Dhar.

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I would like to draw your attention to the two qoutes below. The former explains rather clearly, the reasons why colleges were first established and the expectations put on the wizards in the time of war. The latter, meanwhile shows what happens whenever imperial armies demand for BM support outstrips the capability of dedicated battle wizards to provide such support.

But Magnus didn't sign the Articles of Imperial Magic into law because he wanted more contributors to academic journals in the Empire, he did it because Kislev was burning and the Empire was going to be next. Whatever a Wizard might want to be, the fact that they are legally allowed to exist is because of their military applications, and every paper written during times of peace is paid for by a fireball thrown during times of war.

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the Emperor turned his full attention here, and with most of the Battle Wizards off enjoying themselves in Sylvania it fell to the highest echelons to fill the void.

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It is logical to assume, in my mind, that when faced with existential threat, the demand for BM support would be "yes". Thus anyone can fling BM will be expected to, let a alone a Lady Magister.

 

[Abodmuthkat]

I'm going off general impressions rather than sourcebooks here, but the thing about Battle Magic is that it's basically the equivalent of artillery, packed into one person. So yes, it's a valuable thing to have, but you're not going to pull it out in the middle of a melee, because that's just asking to both get stabbed and eat a miscast.

In practice, that means that Mathilde can't fill the role of duelist / assassin and battle wizard at the same time, and she tends to default to the former if a juicy target appears. And Mathilde has a lot of training, skills, and equipment tied up in being a nasty opponent to face. I'd honestly argue for going for a bound apparition first, since a Red Rider can be useful in both roles.

Also, the thread made the choice to dive into Waystone research, become a middle manager for the top talent of four nations, and create their own research institute on the side. If instead, Mathilde chose stamping out vampires in Sylvania, carving out a fiefdom somewhere, or being Belegars personal problem solver, increasing her ability to function as a battle wizard in an army would probably have more traction. As is, the only way we'd really get into that sort of army-scale fight is if an army somehow showed up in Laurelorn or Karak Eight Peaks.

 

[DragonParadox]

I would like to draw your attention to the two qoutes below. The former explains rather clearly, the reasons why colleges were first established and the expectations put on the wizards in the time of war. The latter, meanwhile shows what happens whenever imperial armies demand for BM support outstrips the capability of dedicated battle wizards to provide such support.



It is logical to assume, in my mind, that when faced with existential threat, the demand for BM support would be "yes". Thus anyone can fling BM will be expected to, let a alone a Lady Magister.

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That does not really follow, Magnus founded the Colleges to help the Empire in war. In case of Everchosen Mathilde can do vastly more than most battle mages without casting a single spell, technically without moving from her seat (though she will of course also go into battle). It is called 'trade in on dwarf rep to make sure the Empire gets dwarf help this time'. The last time the Everchosen marched the only dwarfs who marched to fight them were the Norse Dwarfs, of whom the empire did not even know, the High King and his guard. I think we can swing a bit more than that no?

 

[Mopman43]

The last time the Everchosen marched the only dwarfs who marched to fight them were the Norse Dwarfs, of whom the empire did not even know, the High King and his guard

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Not the case in-quest.

"Aye. Part of that is regular Old Hold reticence - they're astonishingly rich, but their population is shrinking and they've no desire to accelerate that, so given the choice they'll supply steel instead of blood every time. But the other half of the story goes back to before my time. I was born shortly before Thorgrim's hundredth year on the Throne of Power, so I only know what my grandfather told me of the Great War Against Chaos, and the Council of Kings that followed it. It was..." Belegar sighs, and takes a moment to refill his flagon from the barrel. "It was a time that some call the Skedanbryn, the Stolen Hope. The forces of ruin were battering at our doors, but not one Hold succumbed to the temptation to seal itself away and diminish, and every Hold's banners flew on the walls of Kislev. Our ancient allies of the Empire had pulled themselves back together after centuries of division and civil war. And the greatest of all miracles, as we chased the shattered enemy from the borders of Kislev, we met our long-lost cousins in the Battle of Grovod Wood, who we had thought lost in the Coming of Chaos. It seemed like a turning point in our history, a time of resurgence. Even the news that High King Alriksson was dying could not damper our hope, and at the Council of Kings Thorgrim rode that hope onto the Throne with his promise of an Age of Vengeance.

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[Zero Gravitas]

As an aside Mathilde has surpassed Algard in pocket dimension creation or I guess will soon surpass him if she can create one without any demons appearing. She will remain at the forefront right til she releases her book on AV which will then lead to her being surpassed by Algard.

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Algard won't have AV to work with so Mathilde will still be in the lead.

While i am personally really interested in learning new magic, it should be noted that if Mathilde is the one in middle of army battle doing grand battle magic something is really messed up. Mathilde should always come second to actual dedicated battle mages whom undoubtable got several skill that makes battle magic more effective/safer for them.

Mathilde's strength lies more in actual being sword wizard, fighting hero one on one, instead of devouring armies from what i've seen. There is always battle wizards, but dedicated hero wizard fighters aren't as common. I do really wanna learn battle magic, but less so because i think it's gonna make Mathilde an more effective unit and more on just grounds of it being neat.

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Mathilde did tower of doom 'near Cataclysm spell' effect by burning the Waagh and used battle magic (albeit one made safer by her staff) to great effect during the Karak Dum expedition. If we go back to the initial K8P expedition one of Mathilde's greatest contributions was breaking the back of the citadel orks by turning their Waagh spellcasting against them.

So really Mathilde is a hybrid unit: she absolutely does the whole army destroying magic shtick (she successfully did it at least twice) but she also can hit hard in 1 vs 1.

I mean sure we will be called on to help, we will want to help, but why with battle magic? I mean by that logic you could say 'I think that we do need some more marksmanship training. We are a wizard lord and as such pretty high on the mobilization list'. We are not sitting that one out.' It is not as though battle magic is inherently a skill that trumps all others in relation to everchosen.

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Because it is not impactful. Swording is impactful due to Kragg's nearly Runefang tier sword and safe so we absolutely prioritised that - if we had pistols that can shoot cannonballs we'd prioritise them also.

 

[DragonParadox]

Not the case in-quest.

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Fair enough, still we can swing several battle wizards worth more of dwarf canons and runesmiths at the very least.

 

[DeadmanwalkingXI]

I'm going off general impressions rather than sourcebooks here, but the thing about Battle Magic is that it's basically the equivalent of artillery, packed into one person. So yes, it's a valuable thing to have, but you're not going to pull it out in the middle of a melee, because that's just asking to both get stabbed and eat a miscast.

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This is probably generally correct, yes.

In practice, that means that Mathilde can't fill the role of duelist / assassin and battle wizard at the same time, and she tends to default to the former if a juicy target appears. And Mathilde has a lot of training, skills, and equipment tied up in being a nasty opponent to face. I'd honestly argue for going for a bound apparition first, since a Red Rider can be useful in both roles.

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I don't think anyone is really arguing that the Red Rider isn't a good call...but it's binding an apparition and then making a whole new spell, which takes a lot longer than learning one. The two aren't really equivalent. And yes, Mathilde will probably default to engaging in physical combat, at which she is excellent, but there are problems that just won't fix very well, and that Pit of Shades will. Having the option to be artillery when you need to doesn't mean you can't usually default to assassination, and when you need that kind of magic artillery, you really need it.

This is basically arguing that a swordsman should never buy a gun because they're better with a sword. It may be true that they're better, but there are problems a gun solves that a sword does not, and avoiding having one does not suddenly make them solvable with the sword.

Also, the thread made the choice to dive into Waystone research, become a middle manager for the top talent of four nations, and create their own research institute on the side. If instead, Mathilde chose stamping out vampires in Sylvania, carving out a fiefdom somewhere, or being Belegars personal problem solver, increasing her ability to function as a battle wizard in an army would probably have more traction. As is, the only way we'd really get into that sort of army-scale fight is if an army somehow showed up in Laurelorn or Karan Eight Peaks.

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This is true only if the Empire is at peace. If it gets invaded by, say, the Everchosen (an event that is looking more and more likely to occur in the relatively near future), then we're gonna be in the thick of battle real quick.

 

[DragonParadox]

Because it is not impactful. Swording is impactful due to Kragg's nearly Runefang tier sword and safe so we absolutely prioritised that - if we had pistols that can shoot cannonballs we'd prioritise them also.

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Assuming we got a good enough gun (radical runes or enchanting) and became a grandmaster shot it could be, it would be a horrible waste of AP and work at cross-purposes to existing skills, but it is something we could do. That is kid of how I view battle magic only with an added chance of 'go to hell do not pass go do not collect 200 dollars. '

 

[MossPiglet]

Orbs of Sorcery can create new leylines? I'm pretty sure we have seen nothing saying it's the case.

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From what Mathilde has learned, rerouting the flow of a disconnected Waystone would be a matter of expending enough energy to carve a new path of least resistance. It'd be technically straightforward to accomplish but it would require a massive amount of raw power.

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Expending them could get you into the ballpark of how much power you need, and if you mean passively, physically dotting them along the landscape atop the path you want to establish would bring down the amount of raw power you'd have to bring to bear.

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Finally found what I thought of. It was in the context of rerouting a old, disconnected waystone. But I don't see what would stop us using the same technique to carve channels for newly build waystones. We might still have to make the energy flow into the right direction in this new channel, but the same is true for the "Materials" Leyline option.

 

[Zaratustra]

I mean sure we are a wizard, but we are not a battle wizard, we are a very good military commander and a scary assassin, I suspect the Empire has far fewer of both, not to mention in the same person than it does Ulgu Battle mages. Mathilde is probably better at dispelling Dhar than most battle mages already and the Everchosen's armies would be using Dhar.

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You suspect wrong, everything points that wizards in general are the rarest resource, and Battle Magic capable one are rarer still on top of that.
And yes, we are not a Battle Wizard, we are a Lady Magister wich is the rank above that, we are honestly kind of underpowered for our rank.

Fair enough, still we can swing several battle wizards worth more of dwarf canons and runesmiths at the very least.

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Does it matter ? Yes Mathield can swing her dwarf rep of yes to get reinforcements, cool.
But unless you plan to go back home and expend the rest of war drinking tea, you are right back at square one. Is just beyond the point of the discussion.