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Warhammer Fantasy: Divided Loyalties - an Advisor's Quest

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fictionfan said:
We already know maybe the best battle magic for army on army combat Melkoth's Mystifying Miasma. Other battle magic is only better if we assume that we have limited support.
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Eh. Sometimes you need to Kill A Thing (ie: giant monsters, greater daemons, and so on) that ordinary soldiers are insufficient to kill even given the buff of MMM. Pit of Shades is very good for that situation. We don't always need a Big Gun, but having one is significantly better than not having one when the chips are down.

We don't need a plethora of additional battle magic, but an actual attack spell seems relevant and like something we probably want.
 
Personally, I'm a "have it and not need it" type, and I'd like to have battlemagic in our toolbox. We also have lots of things we can leverage to make learning battlemagic easier and safer (The Gambler, Room of Dusk and Dawn, Staff of Mistery, Fog of War), but we don't have much to leverage the absence of Battlemagic on the battlefield—it's pretty much just allies, the dragonflask, and possibly Apparitions, as I see it.

Essentially, my stance is that I would rather take the risk developing battlemagic in a controlled setting now, so that we have the option of using it later if and when necessary, than run the risk of needing to deploy a battlemagic level effect without having the means to do so.
 
deathofrats0808 said:
I mean, sure? But Melkoth's isn't always going to be the best option to solve a problem. If the problem is, for example, enemy ranged troops, Melkoth's is useless. Or if the problem is something like enemy knights in among the artillery.
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Melkoth's Mystifying Miasma reduces Weapon Skill, Ballistic Skill, Initiative and movement.

Theoretically this spell can turn your enemies into lousy shots with the movement speed of a slug. It does require you have a friendly army to take advantage of this weakness though, unlike say pit of shades which just kills everyone who doesn't escape.
 
WorldSlayer said:
Melkoth's Mystifying Miasma reduces Weapon Skill, Ballistic Skill, Initiative and movement.

Theoretically this spell can turn your enemies into lousy shots with the movement speed of a slug. It does require you have a friendly army to take advantage of this weakness though, unlike say pit of shades which just kills everyone who doesn't escape.
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Melkoth's also doesn't last very long in-quest, so enemy ranged units can just wait for it to wear off, unlike on the tabletop game where it affects one of your 6 chances to shoot people.
 
DeadmanwalkingXI said:
Eh. Sometimes you need to Kill A Thing (ie: giant monsters, greater daemons, and so on) that ordinary soldiers are insufficient to kill even given the buff of MMM. Pit of Shades is very good for that situation. We don't always need a Big Gun, but having one is significantly better than not having one when the chips are down.

We don't need a plethora of additional battle magic, but an actual attack spell seems relevant and like something we probably want.
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We have multiple options already for killing a thing. In fact for most single target our sword is better solution then battle magic.

And more wide area effects we have dragon breath.
 
Nerdasaurus Rex said:
Personally, I'm a "have it and not need it" type, and I'd like to have battlemagic in our toolbox. We also have lots of things we can leverage to make learning battlemagic easier and safer (The Gambler, Room of Dusk and Dawn, Staff of Mistery, Fog of War), but we don't have much to leverage the absence of Battlemagic on the battlefield—it's pretty much just allies, the dragonflask, and possibly Apparitions, as I see it.

Essentially, my stance is that I would rather take the risk developing battlemagic in a controlled setting now, so that we have the option of using it later if and when necessary, than run the risk of needing to deploy a battlemagic level effect without having the means to do so.
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We have something that makes learning and casting Battle Magic easier - the Staff of Mistery. Until and unless we get someting comperable for other BM, IMO learning non-mist BM is wasted AP, since it'll be a spell she can only use in the most dire of circumstances rather than a spell Mathilde can safely use whenever appropriate.
 
fictionfan said:
We have multiple options already for killing a thing. In fact for most single target our sword is better solution then battle magic.

And more wide area effects we have dragon breath.
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Sword skills are very good for some targets, but it's been noted that big monsters are not the best target for Mathilde's school of combat, and Dragon Breath is short range, tiring, and based on one of the weakest battle magic spells...Pit of Shades deletes things (including very large and durable ones) from reality at very long range. They have different use cases and we could make good use of what Pit of Shades provides.

I think with that and our apparition spell we'd have enough battle magic and could just stop, but one real offensive spell is a good call.
 
Nerdasaurus Rex said:
Personally, I'm a "have it and not need it" type, and I'd like to have battlemagic in our toolbox.
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One direct damage BM spell and Apparitions seems like the best way to round out our arsenal.

Derpmind said:
We have something that makes learning and casting Battle Magic easier - the Staff of Mistery. Until and unless we get someting comperable for other BM, IMO learning non-mist BM is wasted AP, since it'll be a spell she can only use in the most dire of circumstances rather than a spell Mathilde can safely use whenever appropriate.
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Battle Magic is something we inherently use in difficult circumstances and not as a lark.

Mathilde can get by in easy circumstances - it is precisely when things get difficult that we want to be able to pull out the big guns.
 
Why don't we ask a dedicated bright battle wizard, plus an army to kill the horrible army instead? That sounds like a much better idea.

Like from what I can tell for what we want out of Battlemagic, a better route would be to just become an incarnate Ulgu elemental instead.
 
I'd prefer by a lot to throw a Pit of Shades towards a Greater Daemon of Khorne for example than try to hit them with our sword.


This said, @Boney is it possible to try to adapt a spell so it procs our staff of mistery? Like for example learning Pit of Shades and try to adapt it so Mathilde creates a think fog and anyone who stays inside the fog gets thrown to the Pit of Shades.

Also since I'm asking could Mathilde try to, after learning Steed of Shadows, combine it with Shadowsteed to create a higher difficulty spell (but not BM level) than Shadowsteed but that is faster and retains our mastery?
 
Wouldn't it be better to simply not be in a situation where we have to fight a greater daemon of Khorne, since that sounds like a situation where we are approximately a handful of paragraphs from Mathilde being decapitated?
 
Shard said:
Wouldn't it be better to simply not be in a situation where we have to fight a greater daemon of Khorne, since that sounds like a situation where we are approximately a handful of paragraphs from Mathilde being decapitated?
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Also greater daemons of Khorne tend to have stuff that make magic not work on them a sword might actually be more effective then a pit of shades.
 
Shard said:
Wouldn't it be better to simply not be in a situation where we have to fight a greater daemon of Khorne, since that sounds like a situation where we are approximately a handful of paragraphs from Mathilde being decapitated?
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Mathilde got into a fight with a greater daemon/daemon prince of Slaneesh without looking for it.

Now obviously we shouldn't go looking for tough fights but sometimes the tough fights come looking for us.
 
Shard said:
Wouldn't it be better to simply not be in a situation where we have to fight a greater daemon of Khorne, since that sounds like a situation where we are approximately a handful of paragraphs from Mathilde being decapitated?
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Sure, it would. We still had to in the Karag Dum expedition.

I don't think Mathilde needs BM for normal situations she can handle, but for extraordinary and dangerous circumstances.

It's easy to say "well just not fight the Greater Daemon of Khorne". It's a bit harder when it's coming to kill you and running away would mean abandoning your allies or letting people die and suffer.

Also the Evercup is still running and at some point the 13th Everchosen will come. So I don't fancy our chances to not fight dangerous daemons in the future specifically.
 
There's a non-zero chance that the next Everchosen is not only going to be crowned soon-ish, but may also end up rolling through the Empire. If that does happen, then it's going to become very hard to avoid fighting big, nasty gribblies, even if we don't go looking for them.
 
Yeah, gotta say as someone who isn't super jazzed about more killyness, the argument "Mathilde will avoid every possible dangerous situation where it might be useful and also definitely always has someone else to do it for her" is very not convincing.
 
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I think it would be vastly more productive to recruit more Battle Wizards instead of learning Battle Magic if a fight is really that important. Action economy exists.
 
Shard said:
I think it would be vastly more productive to recruit more Battle Wizards instead of learning Battle Magic if a fight is really that important. Action economy exists.
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I mean, if there's a war (which is definitely a concern), battle wizards will be very busy. Needing to add some to our forces takes them away from other people's forces and even then, we'd be better off with both them and an actual offensive spell than just them. Adding an offensive spell makes the whole Empire stronger in that case while spending the same actions getting battle wizards assigned to us just changes its force distribution.

Retrueno said:
That assumes we're going to know when we're going to get in a situation that needs Battle Magic and when we don't.
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Also this. Most of the situations where something like Pit of Shades would've been good have been surprises.
 
Being able to pick and choose our allies is a luxury we can not guarantee, especially in the semi-plausable scenario of "an everchosen is invading the Empire". Our foes are not going to hang around and wait for us to build up the perfect army to counter them. We're going to have to fight them with the tools and abilities we have, there and then.
 
Shard said:
I would argue that being in the Chaos Wastes at all was pretty much square on in the 'we went looking for a tough fight' category of things.
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We were actually outside the Chaos Wastes at the time.

Shard said:
I think it would be vastly more productive to recruit more Battle Wizards instead of learning Battle Magic if a fight is really that important. Action economy exists.
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We won't always know when we need battle magic and since Battle Wizards don't grow on trees we can't keep a couple with us at all times.
 
Ultimately, like, making or learning a BM is not that big of an investement and as long as we don't die there really isn't a downside to knowing it. Mostly cause we will only cast it against opponents who could kills us if we go in with a sword.
 
fictionfan said:
Also greater daemons of Khorne tend to have stuff that make magic not work on them a sword might actually be more effective then a pit of shades.
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True, although it's worth pointing out that last time Mathilde went up against a Champion of Khorne (not a daemon, just a Champion) she would have died if there hadn't been an Ice Witch mainlining god power to intervene.
 
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