Warhammer Fantasy: Divided Loyalties - an Advisor's Quest

[Altom]

1. Do you mean someone would order us to cast battle magic, the battle magic we do not have not MMM or Rite of Way
2. Making yourself blatantly by casting high level battle magic spells is probably not conductive to then sneaking up on an enemy to stab them. WFB would not model this due to not modeling sub BM spells like invisibility

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1. Someone would order us to cast what BM we have and to try and dispell enemy spells, because even basic BM is much more rare resource then good fighters
2. The enemies that would be worth assasinating in an Everchosen's army would be along the lines of that Khornate champion who nearly killed us. Except on the battlefield he be either on a nasty mount or in a unit of soldiers. Or both. I don't think trying to assasinite someone like that is safer then BM.

 

[DragonParadox]

I would. Mathilde might be survive but how many allies will she lose while she slowly chops down the fat off of Greater Deamon of Nurgle?

I mean Panaromia might be right besides us in that fight, so if it is a choice between casting BM or letting Panaromia die what would you choose?

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Sure and maybe she is next to us when we have a catastrophic miscast and daemons we technically summoned eat her. The hypothetical is just as valid.

 

[DeadmanwalkingXI]

The greater daemon is also a spellcaster which can dispel and has vastly more experience than us with our... 0 Battle magic traits.

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Is it? Greater Daemons are not all great and powerful Wizards. They all have some battle magic (well, other than Khorne's), but many are very low end with it, as battle wizards go. And Mathilde's raw learning and Magic are nothing to sneeze at. Assuming that a random Daemon is a better Wizard than her seems a really weird assumption to me unless we're talking Tzeentch.

Like, in WHFB, Mathilde would be a Wizard (3) after grabbing another Battle Magic spell, and most Great Unclean Ones are Wizard (1). Some of that is a game abstraction, sure, but them being the lowest possible level of Wizard is not a great endorsement of them in magical combat.

 

[Nerdasaurus Rex]

We have a staff that makes Mist based battlemagic spells easier to cast—and easier=safer. We have two different workshops that make developing new spells safer, as well as an actual divine artefact.

It is known that casting battlemagic earns you skills and traits that make battlemagic easier to cast. Case in point—Melkoth casts his signiture spell as a party trick.

So we make some mist based battlemagic spells, cast them safely with our staff, and grind "battlemagic exp" that way, which lets us then start dipping our toes into the normal repertoire of battlemagic.

And remember, Mathilde is both smart and cautious. She'll only use battlemagic in battle if the risk of it is less than the risk of not using battlemagic. We're not going to start yeeting crazy amounts of power at minor foes. We'll save it for the foes that need it.

I really do not want to be up against a foe that needs battlemagic to disable, and all we have is the dragonflask.

 

[DragonParadox]

1. Someone would order us to cast what BM we have and to try and dispell enemy spells, because even basic BM is much more rare resource then good fighters
2. The enemies that would be worth assasinating in an Everchosen's army would be along the lines of that Khornate champion who nearly killed us. Except on the battlefield he be either on a nasty mount or in a unit of soldiers. Or both. I don't think trying to assasinite someone like that is safer then BM.

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1. So to be clear, it's the emperor right next to us not Algard or Dragonas because they would presumably cast battle magic themselves and let Mathilde do what she is good at? Since those are the three people who can give Mathilde orders
2. With our new trait... I'd still rather take the Khornite, the DC for fucking up lethally would probably e lower and we'd get more chances to recover

 

[Tasoli]

Sure and maybe she is next to us when we have a catastrophic miscast and daemons we technically summoned eat her. The hypothetical is just as valid.

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Don't be disengenious, It is not. We determine when we cast spells. We don't determine who the Deamons attack.

But this whole argument (in general not just you) has reminded me of this scene;

 

[Altom]

The greater daemon is also a spellcaster which can dispel and has vastly more experience than us with our... 0 Battle magic traits.

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I find it rather interesting that you are more afraid of the demon dispelling a BM spell from 29 learning wizard lord from a distance then it dispelling a FC light magic spell from an enchanted item, cast right next to it. And that is even assuming that that item is powerful enough to directly counter a Greater demon of Nurgle

 

[DragonParadox]

Don't be disengenious, It is not. We determine when we cast spells. We don't determine who the Deamons attack.

But this whole argument (in general not just you) has reminded me of this scene;

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We would still be the reason the daemons are there. Mostly I used that counter because I think using Panoramia there was meant to evoke an opposite reaction so I went for the equal emotional reaction on the other side to make a point.

 

[Tasoli]

We would still be the reason the daemons are there. Mostly I used that counter because I think using Panoramia there was meant to evoke an opposite reaction so I went for the equal emotional reaction on the other side to make a point.

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What? Everchosen will bring his own deamons. Not us. What are you even talking about.

You are being completely nonsensical.

 

[Parabola]

I think Mathilde might have a smaller chance of miscasting regular BM than Hans the Battle Wizard who started out yesterday, because the biggest factor in her favor is that she usually doesn't need that much actual firepower in most situations and can rely on other tools at her arsenal. Whereas it is my understanding that Battle Mages have the opposite problem and have more difficulty limiting their magical power to use smaller spells. Unless I'm wrong, Hans has no choice but to use Battle Magic, severely hindering his odds of survival.

That's more or less why I'm fine learning Battle Magic, and also why it's not really a priority. There is a lot of good we can do that doesn't actually need Mathilde to be an artillery-scale offensive caster. Like, for instance, the Talabheim incident with Alberich: we had a single target to deal with and any of the offensive Battle Magics would have been fairly overkill in an urban environment even if we'd had them. Steed of Shadows miiight have been useful, to get a quick aerial view of the city before coming back down, but it could have also been unnecessarily risky to just looking at him in an emergency.

Do I want to learn more standard Battle Magic? Yes, definitely. But we're currently on a research project and not really expecting any beastherds or Waaaghs to attack Laurelorn anytime soon.

1. Someone would order us to cast what BM we have and to try and dispell enemy spells, because even basic BM is much more rare resource then good fighters
2. The enemies that would be worth assasinating in an Everchosen's army would be along the lines of that Khornate champion who nearly killed us. Except on the battlefield he be either on a nasty mount or in a unit of soldiers. Or both. I don't think trying to assasinite someone like that is safer then BM.

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1. On the contrary, I am certain Boney at one point stated that you can't really force someone to learn spells they don't want to learn, and that even if you could it's not worth the risk of having a wizard be upset at you for being forced to learn something they don't want to.
2. Collars of Brass that Khornate Champions occasionally wear don't usually do antimagic offensively. My understanding is that Khorne specifically put his thumbs on the scale there because Ljiljana decided to show up with the entire Kislev pantheon empowering her and Khorne was like 'bet'. That should not be taken as a standard example.

 

[DragonParadox]

What? Everchose will bring his own deamons. Not us. What are you even talking about.

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1. Mathilde decides to engage the hypothetical daemon in a way that does not kill is fast enough -> Panoramia gets glomped (Oh no, emotional reaction)
2. Mathile decides to cast battle magic in any situation which Panoramia next to her, rolls badly enough to make a brief hole in the warp where her soul used to be -> Panoramia gets glomped (Oh no, emotional reaction)

Both of these are highly unlikely but possible situations that evoke an emotional reaction

 

[Altom]

1. So to be clear, it's the emperor right next to us not Algard or Dragonas because they would presumably cast battle magic themselves and let Mathilde do what she is good at? Since those are the three people who can give Mathilde orders
2. With our new trait... I'd still rather take the Khornite, the DC for fucking up lethally would probably e lower and we'd get more chances to recover

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1. They would only have to give those orders once. We would not be free of having to follow them just because they moved away from us, that's not how orders work.
2. Did you misz the part where we would be facing not just the champion but a whole bunch of warriors? Or manticore, dark pegasus or whatever else that champion is riding on? Then again, you do seem to thinking that fighting a Greater Demon, one of the scariest melee combatants in the entire setting is somehow less dangerous then learning BM even though the number of people who did the latter in the setting is higher, possibly orders of magnitude higher, then the number of people who did the former...

 

[Derpmind]

Mathilde being a Wizard Lord is not an obligation to learn and use battlefield Battle Magic. The Grey College has far more Battle Wizards than the do Wizard Lords:

My back-of-the-envelope and currently unofficial breakdown is:

250 Minor Talents, Sealed, and Perpetual Apprentices
200 Apprentices
100 Journeymen, 25 Battle Wizards
50 Magisters, 5 Elite Battle Wizards
4 Wizard Lords, 1 'Graduated' Battle Wizard
1 Patriarch

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Mathilde is throughly outnumbered by very deadly, very dedicated Batle Wizards who can and will be crying havoc in the case of an Everchosen invasion or similar. But the Grey College only has one Mathilde, tricked-out super-assassin and world-shaking researcher. She should lean on her unique strengths rather than trying to replicate what others spend their whole lives doing.

If we really must try for bigger magical dakka, Mathilde should do what she did when she created the Sword of Gazul: Make her own. Call in favors and help to make it bigger, badder, deadlier. And then use whatever juiced-up spell she ends up with at the right time and place not to win a battle but to turn the course of an entire war. Dream bigger than picking spells off the standardized spell list for standardized Battle Mages, please. Mathilde is not a Battle Mage and shouldn't waste her time trying to be like one of them.

 

[Tasoli]

1. Mathilde decides to engage the hypothetical daemon in a way that does not kill is fast enough -> Panoramia gets glomped (Oh no, emotional reaction)
2. Mathile decides to cast battle magic in any situation which Panoramia next to her, rolls badly enough to make a brief hole in the warp where her soul used to be -> Panoramia gets glomped (Oh no, emotional reaction)

Both of these are highly unlikely but possible situations that evoke an emotional reaction

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It is very likely that when Everchosen rollse down that entire collages will be called to fight.

In comparation that Mathilde casting a BM without at least taking precautions like clearing the area around her is nonsensical so doesn't help your argument. Empire nows how to deploy Battle Mages rather safely.

More to point, Everchosen war is almost certanity. Mathilde dieing via BM is not.

Mathilde is not a Battle Mage and shouldn't waste her time trying to be like one of them.

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Dude we are not making a lifestayle choice we want one spell from the list for emergencies. Don't act like that will stop us from doing what we are doing already. More to point we are already done with our swords style so I am not sure what you want to use that 1 AP we are arguing for anyway?

If it is apparations I am with you. But if it is to get our Arcane Marks I am not.

 

[Altom]

1. On the contrary, I am certain Boney at one point stated that you can't really force someone to learn spells they don't want to learn, and that even if you could it's not worth the risk of having a wizard be upset at you for being forced to learn something they don't want to.
2. Collars of Brass that Khornate Champions occasionally wear don't usually do antimagic offensively. My understanding is that Khorne specifically put his thumbs on the scale there because Ljiljana decided to show up with the entire Kislev pantheon empowering her and Khorne was like 'bet'. That should not be taken as a standard example.

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1. I am not talking about them forcing us to learn new BM. I am talking about them commanding us to focus on casting what we already know in a major battle.
2. My point was that the kind of people who could be worth assassinating in middle of a fight, which is what DragonParadox proposes we do instead of casting BM in said big battle, would be comparable in powerlevel to that Champion. And if there is a time where Chaos Gods would be pushing on a scale as hard as they can is a major battle involving the Everchosen's army.

 

[DragonParadox]

1. They would only have to give those orders once. We would not be free of having to follow them just because they moved away from us, that's not how orders work.
2. Did you misz the part where we would be facing not just the champion but a whole bunch of warriors? Or manticore, dark pegasus or whatever else that champion is riding on? Then again, you do seem to thinking that fighting a Greater Demon, one of the scariest melee combatants in the entire setting is somehow less dangerous then learning BM even though the number of people who did the latter in the setting is higher, possibly orders of magnitude higher, then the number of people who did the former...

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You think the emperor would give blanket non-discretionary orders to use battle magic as much as possible... I er... don't think he would do that and I think this is about as far as this chain of conversation can productively go.

 

[Altom]

Mathilde being a Wizard Lord is not an obligation to learn and use battlefield Battle Magic. The Grey College has far more Battle Wizards than the do Wizard Lords:
Mathilde is throughly outnumbered by very deadly, very dedicated Batle Wizards who can and will be crying havoc in the case of an Everchosen invasion or similar. But the Grey College only has one Mathilde, tricked-out super-assassin and world-shaking researcher. She should lean on her unique strengths rather than trying to replicate what others spend their whole lives doing.

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And yet I have already provided an example of the Magister Patriarchs and other Wizard Lords being called upon to cover up a shortage of Battle Wizards.
And again, in case of an Everchosen, it would be all hands on deck, because if that threat is not dealt with there would be no world left to shake.

 

[Zero Gravitas]

Then again, you do seem to thinking that fighting a Greater Demon, one of the scariest melee combatants in the entire setting is somehow less dangerous then learning BM even though the number of people who did the latter in the setting is higher, possibly orders of magnitude higher, then the number of people who did the former...

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Now to be fair a lot of people have fought Greater Daemons in melee.

Very few have actually survived the experience.

Unless I'm wrong, Hans has no choice but to use Battle Magic, severely hindering his odds of survival.

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Average Hans would be a 7 Magic, ~ 20 Learning, moderate weapon skills, possibly one mid tier enchanted item sort of wizard.

Mathilde trumps the Hanses of the world every time.

 

[Rafin]

Even in case of an Everchosen our role doesn't have to be artillery.

 

[Derpmind]

Dude we are not making a lifestayle choice we want one spell from the list for emergencies. Don't act like that will stop us from doing what we are doing already. More to point we are already done with our swords style so I am not sure what you want to use that 1 AP we are arguing for anyway?

If it is apparations I am with you. But if it is to get our Arcane Marks I am not.

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I voted for this turn's plan on the understanding that next turn we would work on Apparitions. I've wanted us to finish Branarhune for a IRL years, so now that we've finally done so I think we should work on the Aparitions next.

 

[SpaceSloth]

Even in case of an Everchosen our role doesn't have to be artillery.

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No, but it would not hurt to have it as an option.

 

[Zaratustra]

Dream bigger than picking spells off the standardized spell list for standardized Battle Mages, please. Mathilde is not a Battle Mage and shouldn't waste her time trying to be like one of them.

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But what if learning Battle Magic is dreaming bigger ? The Dream of Being the Best Wizard we can be ?
We live in a strange world where building a Magic superweapon is easier than learning a new spell, and I want to live in the world where learning the spell the college has to teach is a possibility.

 

[DeadmanwalkingXI]

Even in case of an Everchosen our role doesn't have to be artillery.

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Nobody is saying that artillery would be our primary role. But in the event of field battles, it's sure a nice option to have even if you usually select others.

 

[Tasoli]

Mathilde trumps the Hanses of the world every time.

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Not when it comes to battlemagic appearantly because Hans the battlemage can cast it thousands of times and be fine while Mathilde is threated like she is going to die if she touches it.

 

[ReImagined]

And yet I have already provided an example of the Magister Patriarchs and other Wizard Lords being called upon to cover up a shortage of Battle Wizards.
And again, in case of an Everchosen, it would be all hands on deck, because if that threat is not dealt with there would be no world left to shake.

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All hands on deck means everybody needs to contribute. That doesn't mean everybody needs to contribute inefficiently. Mathilde has plenty of capabilities to assist in a battle with an Everchosen that don't require her to pick up BM.

The reason we might want to pick up BM is to fill a small hole in our capabilities, but that's mostly due to the ideal being a generalist. And society largely works the way it does because people are allowed to specialize, to hone certain skills at the expense of others to accomplish more than what they might otherwise accomplish.