Voted best in category in the Users' Choice awards.
Average Hans would be a 7 Magic, ~ 20 Learning, moderate weapon skills, possibly one mid tier enchanted item sort of wizard.

Mathilde trumps the Hanses of the world every time.
I have nothing to base this and I hope nobody misunderstands this as something Boney has said, but I get the impression it's more like the average Battle Mage's Magic scale is warped the other way around, with them also starting at 1, but only capable of Battle Magic, and that the higher up they go, the more control they have and they can do Fiendishly Complex, Moderately Complicated, Relatively Simple, then Lesser and Petty Spells.
 
All hands on deck means everybody needs to contribute. That doesn't mean everybody needs to contribute inefficiently. Mathilde has plenty of capabilities to assist in a battle with an Everchosen that don't require her to pick up BM.

The reason we might want to pick up BM is to fill a small hole in our capabilities, but that's mostly due to the ideal being a generalist. And society largely works the way it does because people are allowed to specialize, to hone certain skills at the expense of others to accomplish more than what they might otherwise accomplish.
In an existental battle, what contrubitions Mathilde makes might be tilt the balance or what tools she has might decide wheter she and her allies survive or die.

You generally want more options not less.
 
I have nothing to base this and I hope nobody misunderstands this as something Boney has said, but I get the impression it's more like the average Battle Mage's Magic scale is warped the other way around, with them also starting at 1, but only capable of Battle Magic, and that the higher up they go, the more control they have and they can do Fiendishly Complex, Moderately Complicated, Relatively Simple, then Lesser and Petty Spells.
Iirc I think it's a bit of both. You can go at the career of battlewizard from both sides. With "too much magic" and "too little" (not really too little though, but less).

It's just that people who have "too much" kinda get pressed into the roll for lack of alternatives and so skew the statistics.
 
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Mathilde has plenty of capabilities to assist in a battle with an Everchosen that don't require her to pick up BM.
Like what? Fighting in melee? Once again, it is not exclusive with using Battle Magic, it is something less valueable because the empire has more high tier melee fighters then it does BM level spellcasters, and it is not something we are expect to contribute ex officio, where as magic, ideally Battle Magic, is.
 
Like what? Fighting in melee? Once again, it is not exclusive with using Battle Magic, it is something less valueable because the empire has more high tier melee fighters then it does BM level spellcasters, and it is not something we are expect to contribute ex officio, where as magic, ideally Battle Magic, is.

Line up all the Empire's Melee heroes, how many of them do you think we could kill if they did not know how our style works and thus if they could not use their martial skill?
 
In an existental battle, what contrubitions Mathilde makes might be tilt the balance or what tools she has might decide wheter she and her allies survive or die.

You generally want more options not less.
Sure, but I'd take five good options over four good options and two mediocre options. Having BM is better than not having BM, but having BM that we can use more safely is better than having BM that we can't use safely.
 
The reason we might want to pick up BM is to fill a small hole in our capabilities, but that's mostly due to the ideal being a generalist. And society largely works the way it does because people are allowed to specialize, to hone certain skills at the expense of others to accomplish more than what they might otherwise accomplish.

Fundamentally no. This is not about being a generalist. This is about having a tool for a really bad and potentially fatal situation we currently lack a tool for. Like, if this were a ship-based game, wanting to pick up a way to breathe water even when you can already fly is not about being a generalist or some ideal, it's about fixing the situation where not having that capability is really bad (in the example, being trapped inside while the ship goes down).

It's plugging a hole in our capabilities, but it's not about being a generalist, it's about that particular hole actually being relevant and dangerous in situations that could come up.
 
Iirc I think it's a bit of both. You can go at the career of battlewizard from both sides. With "too much magic" and "too little" (not really too little though, but less).

It's just that people who have "too much" kinda get pressed into the toll for lack of alternatives and so skew the statistics.
Yeah, seems so. It's that or deciding to put on magic dampeners, I suppose. I bet if Mathilde had had too much power she would have gone with being a Battle Wizard over not having magic at all.
 
And society largely works the way it does because people are allowed to specialize, to hone certain skills at the expense of others to accomplish more than what they might otherwise accomplish.

Mathilde is already extremely specialised - she's solely an Uglu caster.

If she can't learn magic in its entirety like elves and Slaan can or even learn multiple lores like Damsels... then she can at the very least attempt to be an excellent Uglu focused wizard.

We've seen how not being a full spectrum wizard in your Wind is treated as a disadvantage by the Colleges.
 
Like what? Fighting in melee? Once again, it is not exclusive with using Battle Magic, it is something less valueable because the empire has more high tier melee fighters then it does BM level spellcasters, and it is not something we are expect to contribute ex officio, where as magic, ideally Battle Magic, is.
I would assume that the Everchosen isn't alone, and has an army. MMM is great at boosting your army against an enemy's army. We could assassintate lieutenants, like we did Warbosses for Karagril. We could act as a scout, and pierce the fog of war, of as an infiltrator and take out their battlecamps. And yes, we could act in support of other champions and heroes in melee. Any scenario where it's Mathilde vs Everchosen in a 1v1 is a failure state, just like facing Morghur would've been.
 
Line up all the Empire's Melee heroes, how many of them do you think we could kill if they did not know how our style works and thus if they could not use their martial skill?
How is that relevant to us having to fight in major battles against an Everchosen?
Sure, but I'd take five good options over four good options and two mediocre options. Having BM is better than not having BM, but having BM that we can use more safely is better than having BM that we can't use safely.
While I would prefer some of the pre existing spells, I have no problem with making our own. Just keep in mind that it is more AP intensive and less predictable.

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I would assume that the Everchosen isn't alone, and has an army. MMM is great at boosting your army against an enemy's army. We could assassintate lieutenants, like we did Warbosses for Karagril. We could act as a scout, and pierce the fog of war, of as an infiltrator and take out their battlecamps. And yes, we could act in support of other champions and heroes in melee. Any scenario where it's Mathilde vs Everchosen in a 1v1 is a failure state, just like facing Morghur would've been.
But... I was never in favour of melee in general, let alone 1v1 an Everchosen? Casting MMM is exactly what I expect us to do aka cast BM, at which point we might as well get more options.

Assassinating leitenants in a middle of a battlefield is to my mind a very dubious proposition because I expect them to be comparable to that one Champion at the very least, but also surrounded by their own soldiers and pissible with their own casters available to interfere.

And while supporting others in melee is viable, the Empire is much more likely to have melee support then Magic support, so in general it is more efficient to use Mathilde on the latter.
 
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Personally I'm on the side of learning a Standart bm spell. Mostly because pits of shades is a) absolutely cool as fuck b) is a extra powerful, extra kills spell and c) works very well with our liminal realms research tree.
 
It's plugging a hole in our capabilities, but it's not about being a generalist, it's about that particular hole actually being relevant and dangerous in situations that could come up.
Eh. We picked up the dragonflask specifically because we lacked a BM level offensive spell. It's not as good as being able to cast one ourselves, but I don't think the hole's quite that large.

While I would prefer some of the pre existing spells, I have no problem with making our own. Just keep in mind that it is more AP intensive and less predictable.
Glad we can agree on Fog-based BM.

Leaning standard BM is probably less AP intensive, but not necessarily so: the two most popular standard BM spells I've seen mentioned are Pit of Shades and Okkam's Mindrazor, which have the highest number of casting dice. The general assumption's been that they're the two hardest Ulgu spells to learn, and there's a good chance take more than 1 AP. It's speculative, but Redshirt made a good post about it here.
 
We should start small(ish) with a homebrew deathmist spell, and if it works, great, that's an artillery spell in our back pocket for emergencies. And from there we can decide if that's enough, or if we should go deeper into the spellbook.

No one is suggesting we guzzle the entire spell list and become a discount battlemage. No one is suggesting we stop being an assassin/scout/magical researcher/duelist and become a magical mortar instead. No one is suggessting that we turn every battle into a coin flip of "will we blow ourselves up".

We just want to pack a new weapon into our toolbox of nasty tricks, just in case we run into something all our other tricks can't handle.

And considering that we barely escaped a handful of battles whilst in the wastes, it's not unreasonable to assume it will happen again and that we should be better prepared for it.
 
But... I was never in favour of melee in general, let alone 1v1 an Everchosen? Casting MMM is exactly what I expect us to do aka cast BM, at which point we might as well get more options.

Assassinating leitenants in a middle of a battlefield is to my mind a very dubious proposition because I expect them to be comparable to that one Champion at the very least, but also surrounded by their own soldiers and pissible with their own casters available to interfere.

And while supporting others in melee is viable, the Empire is much more likely to have melee support then Magic support, so in general it is more efficient to use Mathilde on the latter.
The ways to contribute that I listed are all things that we've done already in previous battles and conflicts. Assassinating the Warbosses in Karagril, causing chaos in Karag Lhune, the Kurgan battlecamp, etc.

It's more efficient to leverage the capabilities that Mathilde has that are unique to her, of which there are one, instead of using her as another standard Battle Wizard, of which there are dozens (or hundreds, across all the colleges).
 
We should start small(ish) with a homebrew deathmist spell, and if it works, great, that's an artillery spell in our back pocket for emergencies. And from there we can decide if that's enough, or if we should go deeper into the spellbook.

No one is suggesting we guzzle the entire spell list and become a discount battlemage. No one is suggesting we stop being an assassin/scout/magical researcher/duelist and become a magical mortar instead. No one is suggessting that we turn every battle into a coin flip of "will we blow ourselves up".

We just want to pack a new weapon into our toolbox of nasty tricks, just in case we run into something all our other tricks can't handle.

And considering that we barely escaped a handful of battles whilst in the wastes, it's not unreasonable to assume it will happen again and that we should be better prepared for it.
Personally making our own spells just doesn't hold any appeal right now. It's would just feel like swording all over and get annoying... Probably why I'm all for a already existing bm, someone did already do all the heavy lifting for us.
 
Trying to think of a powerful BM spell that Mathilde could create, and while Pit of Shades is the flashiest, Okkam's Mindrazor is the most powerful spell on the list. So what if Mathilde made... the opposite?

Warriors of Fog: The wizard enshrouds an entire group of allies within a blurring fog, rendering each figure somewjat indistinct. Non-magical attacks seem to always just miss, and magical attacks merely disperse the fog's effects from those hit, leaving the ally underneath unharmed.

Where Okkam's Mindrazor makes an entire unit extremely lethal, this would make an entire unit extremely hard to damage. Or in videogame terms, instead of crit damage, it gives I-frames.
 
I think there's a few different situations where AOE damage via battle magic would apply:

1) Mathilde alone against large numbers. Fighting is not a good idea in the first place, but if necessary she's got the flask. This is exactly what it was for. Still, running is generally the best choice. Could be improved, but there's no real hole here.
2) Mathilde and a bunch of heroes against large numbers. Either swording or MMM would do well. Very often, the people she adventures with are mages anyway. And she can still help everyone run away. Could be improved, but there's also no real hole here.
3) Mathilde and a small force against another force. Here she still has the option of MMM, though in some cases actually killing the enemy could seriously improve things. IMHO, this is the spot where something killy does the best.
4) Full on army vs army. Mathilde can historically rely on having magic support on her side, because this sort of thing does not happen suddenly, and Mathilde always makes sure to recruit some mages. So being MMM dispenser, counterspeller or scout are better uses of her time. Some killy magic could have uses, but it's pretty marginal here.

So, my take: The first two options can be improved by battle magic. But I'd say integrating her lesser spells with her abilities has greater impact and reliability. For example, fighting in pall of darkness (which is actually a good combo with our frequent adventure buddy Johann), or learning to use the teleport or Cloak Activity. Or even shadow sword. Point is, these are situation below the scale of battle magic, and so are better solved with other abilites.
For the last option, I don't think there's much use at all. Mathilde is already plenty busy in these situations. Like, doing counter-spelling is something she's actually damn good at, and she has MMM as something to do in between. Or, depending on the situation, leading a flanking maneuver with RoW.

So finally, Mathilde at the head of a small army fighting another small army. No other magical caster for her, and maybe none on the other side. Now, MMM is still a really good option here, so there's no critical lack here. But there are times where just killing a whole bunch of the enemy is more useful than making a wholer bunch of enemies worse. I don't think this is valuable enough to be high priority for a number of turns, but it might be nice to fill out eventually.


Now, you might say: Burn, I just want to do cool magic, even if it's not optimal. Which is very fair. But it leads to another question: Which magic is the most optimal? Also, which is the coolest? Let's consider.

First, from the spellbook: Steed of Shadows, The Enfeebling Foe, The Withering, The Penumbral Pendulum, Pit of Shades, Okkam's Mindrazor
Steed of Shadows is a utility spell, and frankly RoW is better. It's got basiscally no use to Mathilde. It could be cool if the drake it summoned actually did anything. Maybe for rescuing a friend in a tight spot? 2/10
The Enfeebling Foe and The Withering are both debuffs, which given that MMM exists and gets boosted by our staff, is just unnecessary. Also not all that cool. 1/10
The Penumbral Pendulum is a damage spell that applies in a line. So there's some use. It's got a cutting theme, so that's neat. If you want to kill normal dudes and not nasty bastards, a pretty good option. But also not super on theme for Mathilde, though working with liminal spaces might help that. At least an option to consider, and kind of sweet, but frankly doesn't measure up to the other contenders. Useful if you want to get into the SP ring, since it will kill but leave a corpse. 5/10
Pit of Shades is one of the nastiest things you can throw at someone in the TT. It's got a cool liminal space thing going on too. Downside is that it's also one of the hardest thing to throw at someone. Neat, but frankly I don't want to fuck with this. 7/10
Okkam's Mindrazor: One of the best buffs on the tabletop, and also one of the coolest. Weaponize courage. Mathilde often fights with dwarfs who have a lot of courage to weaponize. That's sweet. On the other hand, it's really far from Mathilde's themes, and super hard. I really don't want to fuck with this. 6/10

But Mathilde also can create her own spells! So what might be contenders here?
Choking Fog or Acid Fog. Both of these are options, but they fill essentially the same role. It's a damage spell, but as mist it gets the Mistery boost, which makes it a lot safer. Also cooler. Pit of Shades would likely deal much more damage, but being able to throw it way more freely is a huge advantage 8/10
Riders in Red summon aka Nazghul aka Pocket Posse aka Dämmerlichtreiter. For all those who are in it for the apparition binding. I'd say this is mostly used in the scenarios 1 or 2 above, but if Mathilde grabs a bunch then having a surprise cavalry charge is a powerful move in all but the largest battles. Cool aesthetic, and a lot of history here. I'd say we should aim for this eventually, but maybe not as a first step. 8/10
Painful fog, but with apparition. Whispering Darkness and Black Essence are both contenders for this. This is for those who want a fog spell, but also want apparitions. It's efficient. Also, people getting chocked by black stuff coming out of their face that only they can see is hella metal. And of course, as a mist it gets boosted, so it's relatively safer. 9/10

In conclusion: I personally don't see the need for AOE damage BM. But if that's your thing, I'd suggest you ally with the apparition faction and push for Fearful Fog With Friends. They're pretty numerous, so they'll probably win the vote soonish, and it's a question of which apparition (and therefore spell) takes the lead.
 
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Rite of Way was also a pretty simple BM and still cost us 3 AP base alongside the extra 1 for fixing the problem. If you go by the logic the MMM was a simple BM and thus higher tier BM like Pit of Shades would cost more than 1 AP, it stands to reason that making similarly high tier BM could put the base AP cost at 5+.
 
I really don't like the argument used by some people on the The "No battle magic ever" side is that we can always run away, or have perfect troop composition on our side, or that we won't ever be in a situation where it is needed, because it completely ignores that the Enemy gets a vote.

Sometimes you're in a bad situation, and the best solution is still a risk. In this thread this is called "combat" in general. We have plenty of ways to mitigate the risks of learning Battle Magic down to the absolute minimum. The Gambler + College favour means that even on a crit fail we should still have an extremely good chance of surviving without major injuries or death. Using the Gambler and without tutoring we have a +73 to learn a given battle magic.

This isn't to say we need to fill out the entire book of Grey battle magic. Frankly one good killing spell (Pendulum or Pit of Shades)* would probably fill out Mathilde's arsenal enough to face most concievable situations. The point of learning the spell(s) isn't to start casting it willy nilly. It is taking a small risk now (+73 without any tutoring) to have the option to mitigate bigger risks later. For example, not having our only options be melee based if a great unclean one turns up rotting everything around it, because the risk of catching a horrible permenant disease by going in close is substantially higher than the risk of miscasting.

But the real weird take to me isn't even the "no battle magic ever" one. It's the "We should only use Battle Magic Mathilde invents, because she can more easily control it." Which just doesn't fit with what we know. Battle Magic is hard. Even with all Mathilde's advantages. Inventing new magic is inherently extremely risky. The colleges have had generations of watching and training people how to cast the established grey magic Battle spells. I'm going to quote from when we were learning from Melkoth here:
"Stop thinking of the Miasma as a delivery mechanism."

"How do you know I have been?"

"Because I've watched three generations of Battle Wizards screw up the same spell in the same way for the same reason. That mental separation is just enough of an opportunity for the Miasma to be able to break free from the Mystifying. They need to be interwoven in your mind to be interwoven in the spell."

Like even with Gehenna's notes are people really thinking that capturing an apparition, creating an Ulgu version of her spell and then binding it to Mathilde's soul is going to be an easier roll than say learning Penumbral Pendulum with expensive tutoring? Because I don't think that flows from what we know. Maybe for the cloudkill spell, but I don't see that Appartion lobby choosing to back down in favour of just inventing cloudkill.

Also the other advantage of the existing spellbook is that it only takes 1 AP per attempt. Which is useful if (like me) we want to fill swiftly fill a hole in Mathilde's toolkit that we hopefully won't need very often (but will be really glad we have if we do need it).

*Pit of shades is harder, but I'd prefer it for potential liminal realm insight and because it's single target we can always try for the cloudkill spell for wider range
 
Rite of Way was also a pretty simple BM and still cost us 3 AP base alongside the extra 1 for fixing the problem. If you go by the logic the MMM was a simple BM and thus higher tier BM like Pit of Shades would cost more than 1 AP, it stands to reason that making similarly high tier BM could put the base AP cost at 5+.
Rite of Way's difficulty was set to BM because we rolled poorly. In general, the easier the spell is to cast, the harder it is to make.

But the real weird take to me isn't even the "no battle magic ever" one. It's the "We should only use Battle Magic Mathilde invents, because she can more easily control it." Which just doesn't fit with what we know. Battle Magic is hard. Even with all Mathilde's advantages. Inventing new magic is inherently extremely risky. The colleges have had generations of watching and training people how to cast the established grey magic Battle spells. I'm going to quote from when we were learning from Melkoth here:
Staff of Mistery: +1 Magic, spells that create mists, fogs, vapours and miasmas are one category easier and have enhanced effects.
We are looking to take advantage of the Staff of Mistery, whose effect includes fog based BM, making it FC, and thus available for us to cast in the same way that we've been using Dread Aspect and other FC spells.
 
Rite of Way was also a pretty simple BM and still cost us 3 AP base alongside the extra 1 for fixing the problem. If you go by the logic the MMM was a simple BM and thus higher tier BM like Pit of Shades would cost more than 1 AP, it stands to reason that making similarly high tier BM could put the base AP cost at 5+.
It's not exactly about the AP for me- a mist-based BM would allow us to spam it liberally like Mathilde already does with MMM.

I like that better than constantly rolling the dice with non-mist BM, even if they'd certainly be faster to learn.
 
If it's an Everchosen Showed Up, All Hands On Deck Situation than any battle mathilde is participating will ALREADY HAVE the imperial doctrinal answer to greater daemons: massed cannonfire. If they don't the battle is probably already lost and mathilde should probably be helping important notables escape.
 
In conclusion: I personally don't see the need for AOE damage BM. But if that's your thing, I'd suggest you ally with the apparition faction and push for Fearful Fog With Friends. They're pretty numerous, so they'll probably win the vote soonish, and it's a question of which apparition (and therefore spell) takes the lead.

I'm a bit sceptical that we can double dip and get the best of both worlds.

I really like Apparitions and would prioritize them but they don't quite fill the same role as a insta-death spell like Pit of Shades. Ideally we'd have both spells to deploy against different types of enemy.


If it's an Everchosen Showed Up, All Hands On Deck Situation than any battle mathilde is participating will ALREADY HAVE the imperial doctrinal answer to greater daemons: massed cannonfire.

Magnus the Pious didn't accept Altdorf to be warped by building the Colleges and treated Magisters like nobility in the Articles because he wanted more magical bling - he did it because magic is extremely useful in warfare and cannot be substituted by massed cannon fire.
 
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