Warhammer Fantasy: Divided Loyalties - an Advisor's Quest

[Parabola]

Personally, I'd be okay with learning some standard battle magics. However, if we were going to learn Pit of Shades, I'd be tempted to learn this instead:

From my reading, this is approximately Pit of Shades on steroids with a fog theme, sized up to cover the top of an entire castle.

We'd need "favourable conditions", but I daresay that after the orbflex we'll pretty much always have the CF to have a Powerstone in our pocket, should unfavourable conditions arise.

Boney's said that the Colleges generally want you to learn other battle magics first before deciding you need Cataclysm spells. But we might be able to convince them that in the specific case of this fog-based magic, Mathilde thinks she can get more mileage out of the same risk compared to Pit.

I don't think we''re planning on getting in any big fights for our current job so we probably wouldn't do this any time soon, but I'm very aware that Everchosenbowl could kick off at any time with no warning.

Click to shrink...

Oh. Well that's disappointing.

Click to shrink...

...Not that I wish to encourage this (I don't really see a need to a Cataclysm spell before other more conventional BM spells), but it's not a disappointing spell at all. Shadowmancers can teleport around, so even if it's just 'teleport an army to you', this spell essentially invalidates all kinds of tactics. Suddenly, your friendly army that was being charged at by infantry can be right next to the enemy artillery or squishy enemy spellcasters, or get past a really good set of barricades or walls.

Mist of Shadows legit lets you say "All your base are belong to us."

 

[Andres]

What differences does this fog spell have compared to Pall of Darkness? If it doesn't have a big advantage over Pall, we can just use that for cutting visibility.

Click to shrink...

Pall of Darkness has an AoE of yards, lasts about a minute, and can be dispelled. The fog spell has an AoE of miles, lasts tens of minutes, and can't be dispelled. The main downside of the fog spell is that it's centred on the caster, whereas Pall of Darkness can be cast tens of yards away.

EDIT: It's also a fog spell, so it's boosted and eased by our staff.

EDIT2: It also reduces visibility a lot less than Pall of Darkness. It only fully blocks visibility at 10 yards away.

 

[Zaratustra]

Pall of Darkness has an AoE of yards, lasts about a minute, and can be dispelled. The fog spell has an AoE of miles, lasts tens of minutes, and can't be dispelled. The main downside of the fog spell is that it's centred on the caster, whereas Pall of Darkness can be cast tens of yards away.

EDIT: It's also a fog spell, so it's boosted and eased by our staff.

Click to shrink...

Did we remenber to add IFF so it doesn't blind our army ?

 

[Andres]

Did we remenber to add IFF so it doesn't blind our army ?

Click to shrink...

Since we're creating the spell, I reckon we could modify it like that to suit our purposes, but not without cost. I think either we'd need to make it a ranged cast, which'd make the spell harder to cast, or we swap out the non-magical fog for magical fog, which means you can dispel it.

 

[Saidoro]

I'd be in favor of learning Mist of Shadows. Mathilde is stealthy, can teleport and has a magic horse, the teleport them to you bit isn't a major issue. Being able to advance deploy a slow unit like a group of Ironbreakers literally inside of the enemy lines or on top of their fortifications is a pretty insane battlemagic effect, and it's very in theme with Rite of Way. I also think learning some other battlemagics would be cool, though, so that may just be that risk tolerance manifesting. (People are really sleeping on the potential for turning penumbral pendulum into a giant greatsword.)

 

[Parabola]

Ironically, Pall of Darkness is covered by the Staff of Mistery.

When you finally finish the minute engravings weeks later, you blow off the last of the shavings and look upon your creation. It seems like a simple ivory staff adorned with a spiralling pattern of interconnected Runes. You smile, take a deep breath, and properly grasp your staff for the first time. The sensation as ambient Ulgu is drawn from the air, through the staff and into you is nothing short of exhilarating, like the first clear breath of fresh air after having lived your whole life in a smoky city. And as you gaze upon your staff, each of the etched runes begins to leak wisps of vapour, and as soon as you focus on it the effect grows hugely until billowing clouds of mist are exuding from your staff. It takes some time and concentration to figure out how to consciously stop it, but careful experimentation teaches you how to turn it on and off at will, and how to work it into your spellcasting. Pall of Darkness and Cloud of Confusion are much easier to cast and have a much wider effect, far beyond what you'd expect from simply more magic to work with.

[Staff of Mists: +1 Magic, spells that create mists, fogs, vapours and miasmas are one category easier and have enhanced effects.]

Click to shrink...

I had to look it up but a pall is "a dark cloud or covering of smoke, dust, or similar matter." So that's fair game.

But if we're looking for mundane fog bank, or even one which is selectively see-through for allies, that's very much doable for us. Aside from the 4e source @Andres noted, the Approved Spells threadmark has this:

On that note @BoneyM I have to ask when it comes to theoretical Fog of War spells how impactful would a spell have to be to qualify for Battle Magic status. Like for instance if the Spell was just "Summon Fog Bank" or would it be "Summon Fog Bank that your army can see through without any issue"

Click to shrink...

You could be able to achieve something similar to a mundane fog bank to cover a significant chunk of a battlefield without reaching the level of Battle Magic, but manipulating the perception of hundreds at a time can be expected to be Battle Magic. But the power level as well as any quirks, limitations or drawbacks of a given spell would depend on rolls made while creating it.

Click to shrink...

As Andres says, it's perfect for us. It covers both literal fog for the Staff and the metaphorical fog of war for Warrior of Fog purposes. If it wasn't for Apparition-binding having so much momentum right now, I'd push for it.

 

[Somic]

Goddamn yes I'd be so down for fog-that-allies-can-see-through! A perfectly thematic spell for the staff and the trait, 10/10.

 

[LawsOfRobotics]

Reading some of the ideas for what battle magic spells we could create has inspired me to revisit an idea I had a week ago. While the original idea won't work, I am still interested in the idea of a spell that can cause our enemies to start fighting each other, this time based on Windherder. While the idea of a direct damage spell appeals, and I do want to develop the Rider in Red pokeball and a Cloudkill spell, I want to explore the idea for a spell that amplifies what Mathilde can achieve with infiltration ahead of a battle. Provoking infighting in our enemies is directly in Mathilde's bailiwick and has been very effective before.

The idea is that we could combine a scaled up Cloud of Confusion, and mulitcasted Choleric or Consuming Wrath from the Bright college. The general effect would be to confuse a group of enemies in their camp, making them more prone to violence (if possible the cloud would be tuned to make the targets unable to identify those around them), then incite that violence so that our enemies eliminate each other for us. I think this has a lot of potential when facing large armies that have been combined from several normally hostile groups, like those following the Everchosen.

The problem for this idea is where to source the Bright magic spell. We either need to help a bright wizard infiltrate the enemy camp with us, then make sure they aren't affected by Cloud of Confusion, or we need another source of Bright magic. @Boney can we do Windherder spell casting where the other magic is sourced from an enchanted item instead of directly from a Wizard? Also is the basic idea for this Windherding spell viable?

I will also note that while casting two mental magics on our enemies may cause Dhar to form in their brainmeats, I don't really consider that a problem.

 

[WorldSlayer]

1) Mathilde alone against large numbers. Fighting is not a good idea in the first place, but if necessary she's got the flask. This is exactly what it was for. Still, running is generally the best choice. Could be improved, but there's no real hole here.
2) Mathilde and a bunch of heroes against large numbers. Either swording or MMM would do well. Very often, the people she adventures with are mages anyway. And she can still help everyone run away. Could be improved, but there's also no real hole here.
3) Mathilde and a small force against another force. Here she still has the option of MMM, though in some cases actually killing the enemy could seriously improve things. IMHO, this is the spot where something killy does the best.
4) Full on army vs army. Mathilde can historically rely on having magic support on her side, because this sort of thing does not happen suddenly, and Mathilde always makes sure to recruit some mages. So being MMM dispenser, counterspeller or scout are better uses of her time. Some killy magic could have uses, but it's pretty marginal here.

Click to shrink...

Don't forget giant monsters, that's a situation that can crop up. If there's a giant monster and Mathilde can't run away and doesn't have any cannons or allied battlemages then that's a scenario where Pit of Shades is good to have, even if it is unlikely.

As far as battlemagic goes MMM is a pretty incredible spell. It's a wide ranging debuff that basically turns deadly veterans into cripples, and Mathilde can cast it relatively safely. If there's a situation where Mathilde's side has a a chance of defeating the enemy then it's definitely the way to go.
The weakness of MMM is that unless you have allies to take advantage of the spell then the effect is weak.

Pit of Shades though would have different uses. It's the battlemagic you want to use if you have no hope of otherwise defeating the enemy but running away isn't an option for whatever reason. This mostly means its valuable if Mathilde wants to destroy an army without an army of her own or if she needs to kill a giant monster without cannons or other battlemages to support her.
The weakness of Pit of Shades is that it's dangerous and difficult to learn and cast, it can't be used near allies (scatter dice), and there's a pretty good chance Mathilde would never actually use it.

 

[Andres]

Don't forget giant monsters, that's a situation that can crop up. If there's a giant monster and Mathilde can't run away and doesn't have any cannons or allied battlemages then that's a scenario where Pit of Shades is good to have, even if it is unlikely.

Click to shrink...

Anti-giant monster is a niche filled by the flask.

This mostly means its valuable if Mathilde wants to destroy an army without an army of her own or if she needs to kill a giant monster without cannons or other battlemages to support her.

Click to shrink...

Wizards aren't anti-army. They're anti-unit at most.

EDIT: Wizards are anti-army when they have the Eye of Gazul, the headwaters of the Great Vitae River, or are both alive and Lord Kroak.

 

[deathofrats0808]

Anti-giant monster is a niche filled by the flask.


Wizards aren't anti-army. They're anti-unit at most.

EDIT: Wizards are anti-army when they have the Eye of Gazul, the headwaters of the Great Vitae River, or are both alive and Lord Kroak.

Click to shrink...

Anti-monster is much more filled by Branulhune IMO.

Lore tends to allow for more powerful wizards than the tabletop. Teclis is noted to have routed at least one army single handed IIRC.

 

[DeadmanwalkingXI]

Anti-giant monster is a niche filled by the flask.

Click to shrink...

It's really strongly not. The flask is based on Aqshy, which is actually pretty bad at single target damage, it is not battle magic for single big targets, but for swarms of weaker ones. For comparison, in WHFB, all the Aqshy spells do only Str 4 hits...often to a whole lot of targets. That's not even enough to reliably take out ogres or larger orcs, never mind anything bigger (barring, like, fire vulnerability anyway).

Pit of Shades, in contrast, outright kills things no matter how tough they are, and Penaumbral Pendulum is Str 10.

 

[DragonParadox]

How is that relevant to us having to fight in major battles against an Everchosen?

Click to shrink...

Because it is just as true for their melee heroes obviously, the human sized ones at least of which he is bound to have many. This goes back to the crux of the argument of Mathilde's skillset not being magical artillery of us going out of our way not to be magical artillery all quest, of Regimand warning us not to learn standard battle magic beyond Smoke and Mirrors. This is what I do not understand about the battle magic argument, it comes to these desperate situations where we are the only wizard in an army or the emperor orders us to fight with spells because 'all hands on deck' or we are facing a Greater Daemon who is about to eat Panoramia alone and then concludes that 1 AP spent on battle magic and one cast of Pit of Shades will solve everything... well darn why did we bother all that much with all those other skills then if there is such a bias to battle magic solving all one's problems?

I contend that we have built a character not just mechanically (all the items, making our own spells. the staff) but narratively around the rejection of the uncertainty of the standard battle magic list and I would really hate to abandon all that one day because the Everchosen means a big war and a big war must mean big magic.

Hell I would vote to turn our Gyropopter into an Ulgu Battle Magic altar, that is stronger than any individual battle mage before I voted to learn Pit of Shades (the most difficult and thus dangerous to cast spell on the list).

 

[Andres]

Anti-monster is much more filled by Branulhune IMO.

Click to shrink...

It really absolutely isn't. Branulhune cuts good but not as good as a runefang, and runefangs aren't anti-monster either, they're just lightsabers. They can injure monsters, but don't have the damage ceiling necessary to be anti-monster like the flask or conventional artillery do. Branulhune's role is anti-hero and sabotage, not anti-monster.

It's really strongly not. The flask is based on Aqshy, which is actually pretty bad at single target damage, it iis not battle magic for single big targets, but for swarms of weaker ones. For comparison, in WHFB, all the Aqshy spells do only Str 4 hits...often to a whole lot of targets. That's not even enough to reliably take out ogres or larger orcs, never mind anything bigger (barring, like, fire vulnerability anyway).

Click to shrink...

The flask isn't a Strength 4 AoE attack using tabletop rules, it's a big directed explosion following Divided Loyalties narrative convention.

 

[deathofrats0808]

most difficult and thus dangerous to cast spell on the list).

Click to shrink...

Mindrazor is harder.

It really absolutely isn't. Branulhune cuts good but not as good as a runefang, and runefangs aren't anti-monster either, they're just lightsabers. They can injure monsters, but don't have the damage ceiling necessary to be anti-monster like the flask or conventional artillery do. Branulhune's role is anti-hero and sabotage, not anti-monster.


The flask isn't a Strength 4 AoE attack using tabletop rules, it's a big directed explosion following Divided Loyalties narrative convention.

Click to shrink...

Giant monsters are way too tough to give a damn about the flask though. Like, sure Branulhune doesn't guarantee a one hit kill or anything, but it can actually hurt pretty much anything it hits. Like m, if Mathilde's had to fight a dragon, which would be more dangerous, and explosion it could pretty much ignore, or Branulhune chopping off its head?

 

[DeadmanwalkingXI]

The flask isn't a Strength 4 AoE attack using tabletop rules, it's a big directed explosion following Divided Loyalties narrative convention.

Click to shrink...

It's breathing fire over a large area, and it's never been all that directed that I recall. It's certainly nice, but I've seen no evidence it's actually that good for killing single large foes.

 

[Andres]

Giant monsters are way too tough to give a damn about the flask though. Like, sure Branulhune doesn't guarantee a one hit kill or anything, but it can actually hurt pretty much anything it hits. Like m, if Mathilde's had to fight a dragon, which would be more dangerous, and explosion it could pretty much ignore, or Branulhune chopping off its head?

Click to shrink...

I believe a dragon's resistance to an explosion is less than its resistance to a cannonball which in turn is less than its resistance to a knock-off lightsaber.

 

[Somic]

Hell I would vote to turn our Gyropopter into an Ulgu Battle Magic altar

Click to shrink...

Holy shit yes?
...Now I'm again imagining an Azyr battle altar with a morb in a gyrocopter... such dominance over the sky, aaahhh

 

[Zero Gravitas]

of Regimand warning us not to learn standard battle magic beyond Smoke and Mirrors.

Click to shrink...

Regimand didn't warn us - he explained why he stopped; effectively capping himself. He's comfortable where he is and doesn't want to become a better wizard.

Considering that Mathilde only became LM after learning MMM and why lorewise the heads of each order are the most powerful wizards in it - well all the evidence is that the most well regarded wizards are those that strive to be the best wizards of their lore. Narratively I really like Mathilde going for the best Uglu wizard spot or at the very least the best human (non-vampiric) Uglu wizard spot rather than going: 'nope this much magic and no further'.

 

[Shard]

Instead of 'we should get this ability because we might need it's marginal advantage', why not 'we should get this ability/do this thing because we will need it's advantage'?

Learning better Eonir would be immediately relevant. Mastering our Arcane Marks has who knows what advantages we've never even considered (even though several of our Masteries involve them). Working on Windherder would allow who knows what levels of further advancement via magical items as well as advancing the knowledge of the Colleges. Writing papers and books improves the Empire and Colleges' situations.

 

[DragonParadox]

Regimand didn't warn us - he explained why he stopped; effectively capping himself. He's comfortable where he is and doesn't want to become a better wizard.

Considering that Mathilde only became LM after learning MMM and why lorewise the heads of each order are the most powerful wizards in it - well all the evidence is that the most well regarded wizards are those that strive to be the best wizards of their lore. Narratively I really like Mathilde going for the best Uglu wizard spot or at the very least the best human (non-vampiric) Uglu wizard spot rather than going: 'nope this much magic and no further'.

Click to shrink...

The most powerful wizards does not mean 'the ones capable of independently casting the biggest spells'. Thanks to the Eye of Gazul Mathilde has probably killed more sentient beings with magic than anyone in that room combined. In a duel we could probably beat most if not all of them irrespective of how good they are at battle magic because they are not harder than Kragg's belt. So yeah I do not see Mathilde lagging behind her peers by any reasonable real world metric that does not require a specific constructed situation to nullify her advantages. Hell for all we know a third of the people in that room do not know battle magic either and count on other tools. Maybe the Bursar does all her service to the Empire with economic warfare and has not seen a battlefield for decades, we have a very incomplete picture of their achievements and no picture of their spell lists beyond Melkoth who probably does not all the battle magics given his position.

On that note Kamminovich might not even cast Grey Magic, but instead rely on the magic of the Hedge unless he has found some way to combine lores, we do not know far more than we do about our fellow Lord Magisters and that is just how they like it. I do not think it is a good idea to fill the gaps in that knowledge with 'they are all like Melkoth'

 

[fictionfan]

Holy shit yes?
...Now I'm again imagining an Azyr battle altar with a morb in a gyrocopter... such dominance over the sky, aaahhh

Click to shrink...

I am more in flavor of giant collapsible wings that we enchant with Burning shadows. Just cast a huge shadow over the enemy army and watch them die that's how battles should be fought.

 

[Retrueno]

Personally I'd love to raise Mathilde Magic stat.

 

[LittenLeKitten]

I am more in flavor of giant collapsible wings that we enchant with Burning shadows. Just cast a huge shadow over the enemy army and watch them die that's how battles should be fought.

Click to shrink...

Meh, that's just The Other Eye of Gazul. Now, making all of the rotor blades of the gyrocopter individual Penumbral Pendulums? Raining down massive fuck-off barrages of Silver Arrows? Dropping literal comets from the goddamn sky? That's something new and exciting! And really, if we aren't violating the laws of man and sanity pushing boundaries and exploring new avenues of magical warfare, are we really trying?

 

[Zero Gravitas]

The most powerful wizards does not mean 'the ones capable of independently casting the biggest spells'. Thanks to the Eye of Gazul Mathilde has probably killed more sentient beings with magic than anyone in that room combined. In a duel we could probably beat most if not all of them irrespective of how good they are at battle magic because they are not harder than Kragg's belt. So yeah I do not see Mathilde lagging behind her peers by any reasonable real world metric that does not require a specific constructed situation to nullify her advantages. Hell for all we know a third of the people in that room do not know battle magic either and count on other tools. Maybe the Bursar does all her service to the Empire with economic warfare and has not seen a battlefield for decades, we have a very incomplete picture of their achievements and no picture of their spell lists beyond Melkoth who probably does not all the battle magics given his position.

On that note Kamminovich might not even cast Grey Magic, but instead rely on the magic of the Hedge unless he has found some way to combine lores, we do not know far more than we do about our fellow Lord Magisters and that is just how they like it. I do not think it is a good idea to fill the gaps in that knowledge with 'they are all like Melkoth'

Click to shrink...

I very much doubt there's a Grey LM who actually doesn't know Grey Magic; I'd also question the relative ineptitude of our peers in magical matters. Lady Grey blew up a Dawi-Zharr factory and helped build the Eye of Gazul - she's probably very good at both BM and enchanting. What Algard does with his Towers? We barely have some working theories on how he manages that but it is clearly intense stuff. Sure we don't have a good grasp of every LMs capabilities but I very much doubt that they don't know their battle magic.


As for being better in a magic duel - well I'd rather not have Mathilde's achievements in a wizard duel be solely dependent on wearing Kragg's belt. The Eye of Gazul sort of counts as Mathilde's contribution because Mathilde designed it and helped build it but the belt is purely the work of another craftsman (craftsdawi?) which Mathilde only commissioned. It isn't even a question of using it with skill - like using our sword or a Runefang - would be: instead the Belt just does its thing passively.