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Warhammer Fantasy: Divided Loyalties - an Advisor's Quest

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Dragonofelder said:
Didn't the meet before? On the Experditon to Karag Dum? Or am I miss remembering
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No, no, no. Mathilde mentioned Cython to Deathfang, which got him all pissy. They'd never met before for obvious reasons, and Mathilde never had them meet after for very obvious reasons.

Edit: unless, of course, they'd known each other from way before or something. Long lives, small world. Either way, crossing paths would result in sour moods at best and ruinous collateral at worst, so...
 
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Deathfang gets around. He helped out Cathay a long time ago during the "collapse of the Great Wall" which I believe occured after the Slaan Earthquake caused a crack in the Great Wall around -1500 IC. Dragons that old may take note of each other.
 
Somic said:
Edit: unless, of course, they'd known each other from way before or something. Long lives, small world. Either way, crossing paths would result in sour moods at best and ruinous collateral at worst, so...
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Deathfang didn't seem to recognize the name Cython at least, though that still leaves some possibilities.
 
Mopman43 said:
Deathfang didn't seem to recognize the name Cython at least, though that still leaves some possibilities.
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Cython could be fairly young i think. For the, uh, relative definition of young. Deathfang seems to be one of the oldest dragons still active.

Thought he did seem to have some opinions on Tylos, so probably not. Shows how big the world is, when beings thousands of years old haven't been everywhere despite having flight. Thought dragons are kinda sessile.
 
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Mopman43 said:
Deathfang didn't seem to recognize the name Cython at least, though that still leaves some possibilities.
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My memory isn't great, but Cython said the Water-Folk called him Cython:
Boney said:
"The water-folk once knew me as Cython, you may speak of me as such," it eventually says. "What brings a shadow into the light?"
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I don't remember if Water-Folk was their term for Druchii or Elves in general. They called the language Water-Tongue, but he could be referring to the Druchii dialect.
 
Mopman43 said:
Deathfang didn't seem to recognize the name Cython at least, though that still leaves some possibilities.
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Hm. I wasn't sure, but
Boney said:
"No," you say, and then realize where Deathfang's gaze is. "My staff was carved from one that was slain long ago. But I have spoken to a dragon. An Ice Dragon, by the name of Cython."

"Cython," he says with a snort. "Such a name. A Serpent of Wisdom and Knowledge, given in the tongue of the people it has no right to. What does it know of either? The rebels turn their backs on the heavens to play in the dust, and crow and strut when they build a filthy mound that will be blown away in the wind."

"Not all dragons followed Draugnir when He joined the courts of the Cadai," Asarnil explains. "There's little love lost between those that did and those that did not."

"Their devolved forms are their reward for treachery," Deathfang continues. "They have bound themselves to this world and will die with it. I do not blame the younger races for embracing the Winds, they are no more or less than what they have been made to be. But dragons should know better. They should be better."

"It's a sensitive subject," Asarnil says solemnly.

"Sensitive subject," Deathfang echoes. "Human, have you met any Druchii? Would you like to boast of it to Asarnil?"

"Once, actually," you say, and two heads turn towards you. "I mean, he was only conscious for a few seconds after I met him. Then I put him under Mockery of Death and delivered him to a Nagarythian."

"A proper response," Asarnil says with a grin.

"Would that you did the same to this Cython," Deathfang grumbles.
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the wording of the last line kiiinda indicates that they don't know each other personally? Iunno, maybe dragons are so territorial they actually avoid each other...
 
LadySerpentine said:
I imagine Caledor would also have the more pressing issue of "Why weren't you fucks doing anything to stop me from being the sole point upon which the world rests?" to complain about. Arrogant and prideful he might be, but I rather doubt this is his idea of a good time, and we've seen from the Dwarven implementation that it's not impossible to run a Waystone network in a fashion that doesn't require a living lynchpin (at least not in that way; you could argue that Thorgrim and his predecessors are taking on a similar role, but I'm given to understand they have vastly more palatable lives and need no special talents beyond reasonable sense, education, and reading comprehension, at least by constrast to "immortal prodigy").
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The problem is that Caledor isn't maintaining the Waystone Network (well, he might be doing that too), he's creating the Great Vortex. AFAIK, there's not really any viable replacement for that. It's a one of a kind masterpiece ritual created by some of the most brilliant mages to ever live.
 
Somic said:
the wording of the last line kiiinda indicates that they don't know each other personally? Iunno, maybe dragons are so territorial they actually avoid each other...
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A fight between Deathfang and Cython would involve one of them dying, and I don't think Deathfang is confident it'll be him who survives.
 
deathofrats0808 said:
AFAIK, there's not really any viable replacement for that.
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What are the dorfs doin, then?

I believe it's come up before, and the gist of it was "the methods we currently know would struggle to get rid of enough Dhar to protect a province, also Thorek is being elusive as usual" so yea making new large reliable Dhar dumps is a problem yet unsolved in principle.
 
Somic said:
What are the dorfs doin, then?

I believe it's come up before, and the gist of it was "the methods we currently know would struggle to get rid of enough Dhar to protect a province, also Thorek is being elusive as usual" so yea making new large reliable Dhar dumps is a problem yet unsolved in principle.
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The theory is that they're converting magical power, including Dhar, into featureless rune energy which powers their Great Works. The process of that conversion seems to be lost to a degree, or else they would be making more.
 
Somic said:
What are the dorfs doin, then?

I believe it's come up before, and the gist of it was "the methods we currently know would struggle to get rid of enough Dhar to protect a province, also Thorek is being elusive as usual" so yea making new large reliable Dhar dumps is a problem yet unsolved in principle.
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Even if what the Dwarfs are doing could be scaled up (my impression is that simply due to geographics, their portion of the network draws much less magic out of the world), it appears to be linked to Azamar, the Rune of Eternity, which just means we have two irreplaceable masterpieces at the heart of these things.
 
deathofrats0808 said:
The problem is that Caledor isn't maintaining the Waystone Network (well, he might be doing that too), he's creating the Great Vortex. AFAIK, there's not really any viable replacement for that.
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Thats what LadySerpentine is saying thought. The Kislevites clearly have an alternative that works for their size. So does Karaz Ankor. Grand Cathay must also have an alternative unless its connected to the Waystones. Great Vortex seems to be the only thing that has essentially limitless capacity for wind conversion, but its not necessarily... necessary. If Caledor Dragontamer were to finally tire of sacrificing his life one day at a time, there would be capacity to find an alternative before it is far too late to do anything about it. How to do that i have no idea, but i do believe Kislevites are the ones that we could turn to inspiration in that case, and just turn the winds into divine power.

TLDR: You need to spend winds faster than they accumulate or you need to make them not winds. Vortex does one. Kislev and Karaz Ankor does the other. Fuck knows what GC does. We have no idea how to do either, but could figure out if pressed.
 
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Codex said:
The theory is that they're converting magical power, including Dhar, into featureless rune energy which powers their Great Works. The process of that conversion seems to be lost to a degree, or else they would be making more.
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Yup, as usual. Dorf secrecy having unfortunate effects, because even if they somehow retained pieces of that knowledge, getting it out of them would be hell on earth.
deathofrats0808 said:
Even if what the Dwarfs are doing could be scaled up (my impression is that simply due to geographics, their portion of the network draws much less magic out of the world), it appears to be linked to Azamar, the Rune of Eternity, which just means we have two irreplaceable masterpieces at the heart of these things.
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Their network has been running so low that it was about to stop being able to keep them protected from magic, and that's with most other things disabled. I have a feeling they have way WAY more capacity to eat magic than they're eating rn.
The Rune of Eternity is why I said that the problem of making new dumps is unsolved in practice - but, theoretically, there is a way to un-Dhar Dhar without having to dump it into the Great Vortex. Where there's one, there can be more, even if on a smaller scale (because I'm pretty sure that part of Azamar's unique awesomeness is the breadth of features it possesses...)
 
Yeah, dwarfs definitely possess capacity to take in way, way, way more power. The issue is that the only one who actually knows is Thorgrim. Thorek nor Kragg have any idea that there is some sort of supreme conversion and battery mechanism that does what they think is impossible to do on large scale on, well, large scale.

Trying to plug waystones into their network would work, but first we would have to figure out that it does, and then we would need to convince Caledor to cede part of the network to dwarfs.
 
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pucflek said:
Thats what LadySerpentine is saying thought. The Kislevites clearly have an alternative that works for their size. So does Karaz Ankor. Grand Cathay must also have an alternative unless its connected to the Waystones. Great Vortex seems to be the only thing that has essentially limitless capacity for wind conversion, but its not necessarily... necessary. If Caledor Dragontamer were to finally tire of sacrificing his life one day at a time, there would be capacity to find an alternative before it is far too late to do anything about it. How to do that i have no idea, but i do believe Kislevites are the ones that we could turn to inspiration in that case, and just turn the winds into divine power.

TLDR: You need to spend winds faster than they accumulate or you need to make them not winds. Vortex does one. Kislev and Karaz Ankor does the other. We have no idea how to do either, but could figure out if pressed.
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Part of the problem is that capacity though. What happens when the Dwarfen reserves are full for example? Also, I'm unsure whether the Kislevite solution helps with the problem the Vortex was created to stop, which wasn't, after all, Dhar, but simply there being too much magic in the world. I'm unsure is converting that magic makes it stop mattering, or not.

I'm also unsure that the Kislevite solution does turn the Winds into divine power, rather than the Widow converting it into a specific form of magic. Or pre-mixed sorcery.

Somic said:
Their network has been running so low that it was about to stop being able to keep them protected from magic, and that's with most other things disabled. I have a feeling they have way WAY more capacity to eat magic than they're eating rn.
The Rune of Eternity is why I said that the problem of making new dumps is unsolved in practice - but, theoretically, there is a way to un-Dhar Dhar without having to dump it into the Great Vortex. Where there's one, there can be more, even if on a smaller scale (because I'm pretty sure that part of Azamar's unique awesomeness is the breadth of features it possesses...)
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It has been, yeah, but I wasn't comparing the Dwarfen capacity to it's height, merely to the Vortex. AFAICT the Dwarfen network gets magic from all the Old Holds + a bit of their surroundings, while the Elven network gets it from the majority of the Old World, plus Ulthuan and (at it's height) bits of Araby, Naggaroth and the half dozen other colonies the Elves had.
 
deathofrats0808 said:
Part of the problem is that capacity though. What happens when the Dwarfen reserves are full for example? Also, I'm unsure whether the Kislevite solution helps with the problem the Vortex was created to stop, which wasn't, after all, Dhar, but simply there being too much magic in the world. I'm unsure is converting that magic makes it stop mattering, or not.

I'm also unsure that the Kislevite solution does turn the Winds into divine power, rather than the Widow converting it into a specific form of magic. Or pre-mixed sorcery.
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Doesn't really matter. Kislevites suborned their stones, the winds that enter their lands are sent no further and yet they are not a mire of chaos. Only the parts with no coverage like troll country are. So clearly, it works. Whatever it does. And it has for a thousand years.

We, or i at least, think that Widow just turns it into her own power, or ice sorcery power or whatever (i suspect its one and the same, considering Mathilde iirc sensed blending of divine in it). We could probably do the same with Old World Pantheon.
 
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Somic said:
well........

(Well, they aren't Chaos Wasted yet, just teetering on the brink. I wonder if slurping more magic into the waystone ice vortex via tributaries would help...)
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Almost certainly? They are yielding ground because their tributaries are getting lost, not because the ice magic makes it easier for daemons to show up.

Kislev is the bulwark of old world, has been as long as it existed, and that it stands is a testament to it working.
 
pucflek said:
Doesn't really matter. Kislevites suborned their stones, the winds that enter their lands are sent no further and yet they are not a mire of chaos. Only the parts with no coverage like troll country are. So clearly, it works. Whatever it does. And it has for a thousand years.

We, or i at least, think that Widow just turns it into her own power, or ice sorcery power or whatever. We could probably do the same with Old World Pantheon.
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Even ignoring the political problems with handing over control of the network to one of the Cults, I'm not 100% on whether it works compeltely. Like, yes, it obviously stops the manifestation of Dhar. However, if the power cycling through the stones is not drained off somehow, I suspect you'd still end up with the "eventually too much magic accumulates and then Daemons can exist freely". And I'm not sure that the Empire uses enough of the power for that.

I suppose we also eventually end up asking what happens with all the magic that collects over the ocean, because I assume some must do, and that on the Great Ocean at least is generally drawn away by the Vortex.
 
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