Warhammer Fantasy: Divided Loyalties - an Advisor's Quest

[pucflek]

Even ignoring the political problems with handing over control of the network to one of the Cults, I'm not 100% on whether it works compeltely. Like, yes, it obviously stops the manifestation of Dhar. However, if the power cycling through the stones is not drained off somehow, I suspect you'd still end up with the "eventually too much magic accumulates and then Daemons can exist freely". And I'm not sure that the Empire uses enough of the power for that.

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See... i kind of doubt that. I mean, even if you could not spend the power, the God almost certainly could. And even if the God couldn't, how the hell would chaotic daemons use, say, Sigmar infused energy to manifest.

The suffusion of the land by aligned divine energies should make manifestation harder, not easier.

That is of course just a hypothesis, but i don't think an entirely wrong one.

EDIT: I mean, i would rather we wouldn't have to find out and wish Caledor nice rest of torturous eternity, but it certainly sounds like a viable avenue of research if we want to establish our own mini-vortex or if the Great Vortex fails.

 

[BurnNote]

The Rune of Eternity is why I said that the problem of making new dumps is unsolved in practice - but, theoretically, there is a way to un-Dhar Dhar without having to dump it into the Great Vortex. Where there's one, there can be more, even if on a smaller scale (because I'm pretty sure that part of Azamar's unique awesomeness is the breadth of features it possesses...)

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Pedantic correction: The Vortex doesn't un-Dhar Dhar. It just shoves it back where it came from. Presumably being back in the aether converts it to whatever that is*, but we don't know.

*AV is what the energy is after getting to the world by way of daemonaparition blood. But you'd probably want a magma/lava distinction there, even if it is effectively the same stuff. Which is not certain.

 

[Andres]

<Ubersreik Adventures III Announcement>

Ubersreik Adventures III returns players to the beloved town of Ubersreik. Those familiar with the troubled centre of Reikland trade may have already found themselves recruited by the Altdorf occupiers to suppress resistance to the enlightened rule of Emperor Karl Franz. If their judgement was poorer, they may have entered the employ of Jungfreud loyalists to further their goal to restore Graf Sigismund to the city. The most mislead (or enlightened?) of all may already have thrown their lot in with the Most Respectable Association of Ubersreik, keen to advance the cause of independence from noble rule entirely.

Despite their actions, Ubersreik remains a town ravaged by divided loyalties.

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[Somic]

Pedantic correction: The Vortex doesn't un-Dhar Dhar.

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Never claimed it did, just skipped a few steps saying "so obviously the ways to deal with Dhar is to either dump, neuter or destroy it".

 

[Mopman43]

<Ubersreik Adventures III Announcement>

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I hope it ends with Ubersreik razed to the ground so the sourcebooks can talk about something else.

 

[deathofrats0808]

See... i kind of doubt that. I mean, even if you could not spend the power, the God almost certainly could. And even if the God couldn't, how the hell would chaotic daemons use, say, Sigmar infused energy to manifest.

The suffusion of the land by aligned divine energies should make manifestation harder, not easier.

That is of course just a hypothesis, but i don't think an entirely wrong one.

EDIT: I mean, i would rather we wouldn't have to find out and wish Caledor nice rest of torturous eternity, but it certainly sounds like a viable avenue of research if we want to establish our own mini-vortex or if the Great Vortex fails.

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Daemons can apparently use unaligned Winds to manifest, so I'm not sure that turning all of it into non-Chaos divine energies would necessarily stop them, although I agree that it should certainly make it harder.

Sure, although if the Vortex flat out fails I would suspect that "go with what worked before" would be the general opinion, because you have limited time and if you fuck up you kill everyone.

Never claimed it did, just skipped a few steps saying "so obviously the ways to deal with Dhar is to either dump, neuter or destroy it".

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It's worth pointing out though, because the Vortex and the Waystone Network were not built to get rid of Dhar. That's a happy coincidence, but they exist to drain all magic out of the world. I suspect, although I cannot prove it, that it's effectively impossible to cast spells on the Isle of the Dead because although there's a lot of power there, spells simply slip into the Vortex before they finish forming.

 

[Andres]

I hope it ends with Ubersreik razed to the ground so the sourcebooks can talk about something else.

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Lustria's coming out in two days and I promise it spends no more than half of its wordcount talking about Ubersreik.

 

[Somic]

Daemons can apparently use unaligned Winds to manifest, so I'm not sure that turning all of it into non-Chaos divine energies would necessarily stop them, although I agree that it should certainly make it harder.

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Winds have behavior. Gods have will. There's a vast difference between what's essentially a weird ornery force of nature and a thinking being who imposes themselves on the world consciously.

the Waystone Network were not built to get rid of Dhar. That's a happy coincidence, but they exist to drain all magic out of the world.

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Well, I heard Ulthuan floats, and Teclis taught Jades how to draw Ghyran out of Waystones. The only place that might actually have the pull to suck away actively controlled magic is the Vortex itself, and even then I seriously doubt a skilled enough mage couldn't make something work with the local concentration of energies.

 

[pucflek]

Sure, although if the Vortex flat out fails I would suspect that "go with what worked before" would be the general opinion, because you have limited time and if you fuck up you kill everyone.

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Unlike the Waystone network, the Vortex actually was a product of one of the most briliant minds to be born in a far more blessed age, so i doubt thats an option. Not to mention it would end with the same failure state.

Also what Somic says. Remember when Widow just straight up said "No, fuck you" and just straight up temporarily reclaimed huge swathe of chaos wastes to pave way for Lliljana?

 

[Codex]

<Ubersreik Adventures III Announcement>

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Hey, didn't the second Ubersreik Adventures book also use "Divided Loyalties"? I distinctly remember memeing about it a while ago. I don't know if the term is that popular that they'd keep using it and I'm seeing things. Once is a coincidence, twice is happenstance?

EDIT: I wasn't imagining things. This did happen a while ago:

I was browsing the catalogue of products available at the Cubicle Seven store for WFRP now that I've finished the core book, and I came across this description for Ubersreik Adventures 2:

"Ubersreik is a city in turmoil, riven with divided loyalties."

Excellent. I am pleased.

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[Tobtorp]

I think a problem with seeing the way Kislev is handling their network as a good way to solve it is that it's now solved. Afaik the chaos wastes are still coming south to Kislev, Prag is still filled with enough magic to keep it weird. It might be slower then when nothing happened but i very much doubt it's a universal solution. (Also a big problem is that the widow is extremely geographically bound. She is only a goddess of Kislev and only in the land of Kislev and her former parts does she hold much power. The only other goddess that falls under this is the lady i think...)

 

[pucflek]

Afaik the chaos wastes are still coming south to Kislev, Prag is still filled with enough magic to keep it weird.

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Sure, but thats because every time an everchosen comes down that way, they thunderdome the place up. Kislev going chaosy despite the waystone network has more to do with the fact that it is in direct contact with Chaos Wastes and suffers from direct attention and contest against them.

 

[Tobtorp]

Sure, but thats because every time an everchosen comes down that way, they thunderdome the place up. Kislev going chaosy despite the waystone network has more to do with the fact that it is in direct contact with Chaos Wastes and suffers from direct attention and contest against them.

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Ok but again, praag is still being magically weird, and that one is specifically in the loop of the network. It should have gotten better if the Kislev network worked, it hasn't.

 

[pucflek]

Ok but again, praag is still being magically weird, and that one is specifically in the loop of the network. It should have gotten better if the Kislev network worked, it hasn't.

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Better is a relative term. There is a waystone in Altdorf, and yet the city is magical up the wazoo. Praag got razed and rebuilt and desecrated and deconsecrated and reconsecrated like dozen times in last thousand years.

Some things just leave scars that take a while to heal.

 

[Tobtorp]

I still don't think Kislev method will be as effective as the vortex, I understand why they did it. Making it a self-sufficient system makes is more robust when the next champion of chaos walzes through but i doubt it handles too well...

 

[Loltop]

The empire literally has a vortex just sitting around waiting to be reclaimed. The forest of shadows. It is a Halethan vortex, and possibly even what the Kislev one is based upon.

Divine ambient winds are the definition of not unaligned.

Dorf rune of waystone is crafting god best craft, I doubt it truly has an upper limit or throughput. I think at some point if you pour in enough energy, Grungni himself will probably jump out. A dorf god was "content" with this rune, to me that says flawless.

Maybe Thungni and the other gods are doing the same thing Caledor is?

 

[Mopman43]

The empire literally has a vortex just sitting around waiting to be reclaimed. The forest of shadows. It is a Halethan vortex, and possibly even what the Kislev one is based upon.

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There's no reason to assume that was a separate network instead of simply being lost Waystones that were linked to the Vortex.

 

[Tobtorp]

The empire literally has a vortex just sitting around waiting to be reclaimed. The forest of shadows. It is a Halethan vortex, and possibly even what the Kislev one is based upon.

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How in the world did you get that idea? No one ever has mentioned anything that could even remotely indicate that the forest of shadows is in any way capable in defusing or using magic in that form.

 

[Glau]

Huh. Interesting discussion. I'm on the side that says churning the water in a bathtub differently doesn't actually lower the overall level.

Doesn't really matter. Kislevites suborned their stones, the winds that enter their lands are sent no further and yet they are not a mire of chaos. Only the parts with no coverage like troll country are. So clearly, it works. Whatever it does. And it has for a thousand years.

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Debatable. This might just be Kislev free-riding on everyone else's Waystones keeping the overall levels of magic low enough. So you need to define what you mean by 'works'. Repurposed the winds? Yes. Lower the overall level of magic? No.

Winds have behavior. Gods have will. There's a vast difference between what's essentially a weird ornery force of nature and a thinking being who imposes themselves on the world consciously.

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Gods are excluded from touching the world directly though. Assuming that energy converted to their 'essence' or otherwise imprinted allows them to sidestep this restriction seems like a much larger deal than you imply.

Some things just leave scars that take a while to heal.

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But since we are discussing the rate of healing under two different hypotheticals, with and without the Waystone loop, it is worth asking if a Waystone that drained magic out of Pragg would let it heal faster.

I think yes.

Divine ambient winds are the definition of not unaligned.

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Divine ambient winds are not a thing we have ever seen to exist. We've seen energies associated with the direct attention of a deity, but that's it. Assuming that ambient winds can be divine is a huge, and unsupported, leap.

 

[Mopman43]

Huh. Interesting discussion. I'm on the side that says churning the water in a bathtub differently doesn't actually lower the overall level.

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I suppose the question would be if Magic consumes Winds?

Like, if a Bright Wizard throws a fireball (or fire ball), did they use up the Aqshy they used, converting it into heat and light, or is there still the same amount of Winds at the end?

I'm inclined towards the former, personally.

 

[Tobtorp]

Divine ambient winds are not a thing we have ever seen to exist. We've seen energies associated with the direct attention of a deity, but that's it. Assuming that ambient winds can be divine is a huge, and unsupported, leap.

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Tbf we also found that you can "flavour" the base "wind" with divinity without the god actually being there to do it. It still needs a thing to do it with so I'm actually unsure if a divine object counts as some sort of "attention" but it still works. Though that is with vitae and thats special and not a base wind...

I suppose the question would be if Magic consumes Winds?

Like, if a Bright Wizard throws a fireball (or fire ball), did they use up the Aqshy they used, converting it into heat and light, or is there still the same amount of Winds at the end?

I'm inclined towards the former, personally.

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I actually agree in principle with you. Casting probably uses up magic, i just think that the widow herself is not using magic and that the ice witches are definitely not using enough magic to matter.

If you have a lake blocked by a dam and the damn has a small crack and the water dribbles out your technically "draining" the lake...

 

[pucflek]

Debatable. This might just be Kislev free-riding on everyone else's Waystones keeping the overall levels of magic low enough. So you need to define what you mean by 'works'. Repurposed the winds? Yes. Lower the overall level of magic? No.

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No? If it worked like that, Empire would not need waystones at all, they could just rely on Bretonnia. Kislev is far too large for it to work like that. And if the winds were useable by daemons to manifest more, Kislev would not exist anymore, in its place a barren wasteland. Since it isn't so, and looks fairly normal to Mathilde, i would say that the magic being spun to ice magic works.

Gods are excluded from touching the world directly though. Assuming that energy converted to their 'essence' or otherwise imprinted allows them to sidestep this restriction seems like a much larger deal than you imply.

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Ranald literally manifested coin out of nothing. Emperor wields a god-forged hammer. Horned Rat iirc literally eats skaven that offend him too much (thought i may have to look for a quote on that). That's just the physical affects of what they can directly do. Their power can be wielded at their say so, and they may do things with it while it is being done. So dedicating the accumulated power to them so they may do with it as they will sounds fairly doable.

EDIT: To express myself further. Accumulation of unclaimed winds and dhar is bad because those can be taken and used to pierce the veil and bring in daemon armies (as well as generally detrimental effects Dhar has on its surroundings). Even if Gods failed to use the power dedicated to them as such and let it accumulate, it would still be power that i don't imagine Chaos cultists could use? It is a question if it wouldn't end up bringing realms of, say, Morr, or Sigmar, or Ulric into reality but who knows.

 

[Glau]

I suppose the question would be if Magic consumes Winds?

Like, if a Bright Wizard throws a fireball (or fire ball), did they use up the Aqshy they used, converting it into heat and light, or is there still the same amount of Winds at the end?

I'm inclined towards the former, personally.

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Pretty sure there's a Boney quite to support that idea, but I'm not sure where, exactly. @picklepikkl?

Tbf we also found that you can "flavour" the base "wind" with divinity without the god actually being there to do it. It still needs a thing to do it with so I'm actually unsure if a divine object counts as some sort of "attention" but it still works. Though that is with vitae and thats special and not a base wind...

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Yeah- we did convert the raw warpstuff to divine energy directly, without ever becoming winds. Since we did the same with Dhar, there's a chance that a way exists to mix existing winds in such a way as to get divine energy, but that's entirely speculative.

Pocket dimensions are probably our best route forward if we are trying to find a backup to the vortex. Just punch through to the warp entirely with AV?

No? If it worked like that, Empire would not need waystones at all, they could just rely on Bretonnia

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It's likely, imho, that the empire could. But you start to get into problems with too many freeriders, so if you want an actual test, you'd need to turn on an equivalent number of Waystones elsewhere.

So dedicating the accumulated power to them so they may do with it as they will sounds fairly doable.

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So, your examples are of them using power without pulling it from the world- the divine energy comes directly from the warp. Do you have any examples of gods using power already present in the world?

As a side note, that 'gods are barred from touching the world directly' is pulled from elf mythology, so it may not be the most straightforward statement.

 

[Tobtorp]

Pretty sure there's a Boney quite to support that idea, but I'm not sure where, exactly. @picklepikkl?



Yeah- we did convert the raw warpstuff to divine energy directly, without ever becoming winds. Since we did the same with Dhar, there's a chance that a way exists to mix existing winds in such a way as to get divine energy, but that's entirely speculative.

Pocket dimensions are probably our best route forward if we are trying to find a backup to the vortex. Just punch through to the warp entirely with AV?

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... That last part is called a daemon portal and pretty frowned upon... The vortex is special in that it shunts it off without letting things in.

 

[pucflek]

So, your examples are of them using power without pulling it from the world. Do you have any examples of gods using power already present in the world?

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Yes, Ice Magic

Literally proof of concept.

But also, Gazul could've interfered in the firing of the sword in some fashion, and Ranald stole the power from the ritual that Mathilde fed him (and through it stole a much larger part from the Greenskin gods directly). How is that not using power that was in the world?

It makes no sense for Gods to not be able to utilize power that is dedicated to them.

EDIT: Actually, Tylos is a god that still walks to world. Grombrindal exists. So... about that.