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Warhammer Fantasy: Divided Loyalties - an Advisor's Quest

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pucflek said:
Unlike the Waystone network, the Vortex actually was a product of one of the most briliant minds to be born in a far more blessed age, so i doubt thats an option. Not to mention it would end with the same failure state.

Also what Somic says. Remember when Widow just straight up said "No, fuck you" and just straight up temporarily reclaimed huge swathe of chaos wastes to pave way for Lliljana?
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The Vortex is much worse than merely being the product of one of the most brilliant mages to ever live. Its at least a dozen if not more of the greatest mages of elvenkind all casting the spell. Hes the conducter of the ritual.

A ritual that doesnt work. The Vortex is insufficient to actually do the very thing it was created to do. And chances are the only ones who know this are the Slann and the Elven Mages maintaining the Vortex. The Dwarven Network? Insufficient. The Celestial Compass? Still Insufficient. Theres simply too much magic for the Vortex to actually handle. A major reason the slann sleep is handling that considerable excess. The only viable replacement for the Vortex is a properly built globe spanning geomantic web.

BTW, it is likely not a fucking accident that the Vortex is being supplied by a network of waystones. The network is likely an extremely bastardized version of a temple city web at the very least. And the only mages still aware of this are...the Slann and the Mages currently casting the ritual. Some of which likely were direct pupils of the Slann.

Furthermore, FUCK MALEKITH. I am almost certain the knowledge we need used to be in one of the cities he had destroyed.
 
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Ice magic is an interesting case, but we've not actually seen it's casters using magic any differently than imperial cults do. That is to say, I'm pretty sure their spells do not use winds at all and the power comes directly from the crone, rather than ambient sources- rather than repurposing existing local energy.

The other examples of non-wind magic, maw and waaagh, also seem like they come directly from divine sources, since they don't depend on ambient magic. (I'd argue that the waaagh can be ambient after it is created, but since it can only be created by greenskins souls, it's still coming from a divinity and not the world.)
 
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Lol Malekith screws everything up.

I thought of a better way to phrase my point about magic:

It's not under debate that the gods can put energy into the world. The question is if they can take it out, or commandeer existing energies that aren't already theirs.
 
Glau said:
Ice magic is an interesting case, but we've not actually seen it's casters using magic any differently than imperial cults do. That is to say, I'm pretty sure their spells do not use winds at all and the power comes directly from the crone, rather than ambient sources- rather than repurposing existing local energy.
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If they don't repurpose winds why are they repurposing winds? Why did they literally suborn elves to build a wind tobogan boogaloo to do exactly that?

Either they use the energy directly, or they feed it to the widow who feeds it back to them when they need it and uses it otherwise when they don't. But Just because doesn't seem to be a reason for undertaking of this magnitude unless you are a Chaos God.
 
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pucflek said:
If they don't repurpose winds why are they repurposing winds? Why did they literally suborn elves to build a wind tobogan boogaloo to do exactly that?
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That is a very good question. Why did they repurpose winds instead of removing them, and why don't any of the other gods in the world do the same thing?

The implication is that the Widow isn't a goddess in the same sense as the others, who all live in the warp.
 
Glau said:
The implication is that the Widow isn't a goddess in the same sense as the others, who all live in the warp.
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I haven't even thought about that but it would make so much sense. It would explain why they repurposed the network and why the widow might actually want that much wind...
If your a fish out of water having a hose pointed at you is better then nothing...
 
Tobtorp said:
How in the world did you get that idea? No one ever has mentioned anything that could even remotely indicate that the forest of shadows is in any way capable in defusing or using magic in that form.
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Mopman43 said:
There's no reason to assume that was a separate network instead of simply being lost Waystones that were linked to the Vortex.
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It is a linked trio of nexuses in a goddesses holy land dedicated to a goddess the same as Kislev. She is even a minor goddess in Kislev.
 
Loltop said:
It is a linked trio of nexuses in a goddesses holy land dedicated to a goddess the same as Kislev. She is even a minor goddess in Kislev.
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There's probably way more than 3 nexuses in brettonia, the holy land of the lady. No vortex. Tilia/Estalia are largely dedicated to Myrmidia, and probably have more than 3 nexuses. No vortex. The empire has plenty of large regions dedicated to various gods. No vortex. Just because a god controls a region with waystone nexuses in it doesn't mean they have a vortex. We'd need a lot more evidence before making that conclusion.
 
Glau said:
The implication is that the Widow isn't a goddess in the same sense as the others, who all live in the warp.
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That might be a possibility, a land spirit in the same way that Forest spirits or other smaller spirits are. Considering however that Dazh, Tor and Ursun exist, Widow is very familiar with Ranald and the Lliljana showing in the Kul Encampment, i doubt it.

Not something we can really prove either way until we happen upon an answer either way thought.
 
Mopman43 said:
I suppose the question would be if Magic consumes Winds?

Like, if a Bright Wizard throws a fireball (or fire ball), did they use up the Aqshy they used, converting it into heat and light, or is there still the same amount of Winds at the end?

I'm inclined towards the former, personally.
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I'm inclined to think it's the latter, in the same way that breathing air doesn't reduce the amount of oxygen in the atmosphere-- it's just bound up in carbon dioxide.

So in that way of looking at it, the Bright Wizard who casts enough Fireballs to exhaust the local environmental Aqshy hasn't reduced the amount of magic overall, they've just converted it into a form unsuitable for immediate spellcasting.
 
ReImagined said:
I'm inclined to think it's the latter, in the same way that breathing air doesn't reduce the amount of oxygen in the atmosphere-- it's just bound up in carbon dioxide.

So in that way of looking at it, the Bright Wizard who casts enough Fireballs to exhaust the local environmental Aqshy hasn't reduced the amount of magic overall, they've just converted it into a form unsuitable for immediate spellcasting.
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Then what's the mechanism for heat and light to turn back into Winds? As far as I'm aware, the only source for the Winds (apart from incidental portals to the aether) are the Poles.
 
Mopman43 said:
Then what's the mechanism for heat and light to turn back into Winds? As far as I'm aware, the only source for the Winds (apart from incidental portals to the aether) are the Poles.
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The idea is that while the spell produces heat and light, it doesn't convert magic into heat and light, since those are part of reality. Magic remains magic, reality remains reality. The magic is spent and converted into a [lower energy/less dense/waste product?] state in the process of producing that effect, just like how oxygen can't be breathed while it's part of CO2.

Fuel + O2 --> Energy + CO2

Reality + Magic --> Spell effect + [lower energy/less dense/waste product?]Magic
Edit: found a Boney quote.

Boney said:
Andres said:
Musing. When you cast a spell, the winds you're using gets turned into spell. So if you get Aqshy to cast a fireball spell, once you're done, there's a fireball and no Aqshy. But that fireball is "magical". It's got magical properties, dealing magical damage, so Aqshy's Aegis - which is fully immune to natural fire - is only partially effective against it. It's magical despite its composition completely lacking winds of magic. I'm wondering a little if this has some measure of importance, somehow.
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Winds are magical energy in what can be considered its 'natural' form - one of eight flavours and acting according to its nature. That magical energy when used in a spell is no longer a Wind, because it's now acting according to the will of the person using it instead of according to its own nature, but it's still magical energy, and it still has the potential to revert back to Wind if the Wizard mishandles it. It can also revert back to its original form as a manifestation of the realm of Chaos if things go really wrong, and that's when you get the really nasty miscasts. Or it can be scattered so widely that it no longer has the nature of one of the Winds, and it becomes largely inert magic, sometimes known as 'earthbound' magic.

This is the energy that Runecraft uses, and one of the fundamental secrets of Runecraft is how you can have large amounts of this inert energy in one place with it remaining inert and not remanifesting one of its other natures. It's also the magic that is theorized to be behind the non-Teclisean magics like Hedgecraft and Elementalism and the like, using this inert magic to fuel lesser spells that can take just about any form because they don't have a fundamental nature that one has to work around. That these non-Teclisean traditions are often able to perform feats that Teclisean theory says are impossible using only earthbound magic is a bit of a sticking point in that whole theoretical framework.

Teclisean theory: "Well, technically if you use only tiny amounts of magic then you can shape it into any framework you imagine, but if you get too much magic together it will reassert an identity so you could only cast the most petty and minor of spells..."
Elementalists: "Haha fire golem goes brrr."
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Tobtorp said:
Ok but again, praag is still being magically weird, and that one is specifically in the loop of the network. It should have gotten better if the Kislev network worked, it hasn't.
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Praag is magically weird but it also explicitly IS GETTING BETTER. It used to be magically even weirder. So if anything, seems more like explicit proof that the kislev network DOES work.
 
The dark magic is definitely getting filtered out. Whatever the widow is doing is working, you're right.

Based on the prophecy of a masculine spellcaster corrupting it though, it sounds like it could tip the other way catastrophically. The implication is that if the current stops everything that's built up gets corrupted as it mixes to Dhar?
 
Glau said:
If this were true in more than the most general sense, we'd have isolated pockets of demons running around.
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Well, sure. But the scale we are talking about is not leaving a relatively small area uncontested, or even something as big as sylvania which is ringed by waystones network protected area (if somewhat spotty) from literally every side, but a nation that outsizes any two, or perhaps even three provinces put together, that borders with friggin chaos wastes in places.

I don't think the principle of "Imperial waystones probably lighten the load" really holds up anywhere but at the Empire-Kislev border and couple dozen kilometres in, in this case.
 
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pucflek said:
Well, sure. But the scale we are talking about is not leaving a relatively small area uncontested, or even something as big as sylvania which is ringed by waystones network protected area from literally every side, but a nation that outsizes any two, or perhaps even three provinces put together, that borders with friggin chaos wastes in places.

I don't think the principle of "Imperial waystones probably lighten the load" really holds up anywhere but at the Empire-Kislev border and couple dozen kilometres in, in this case.
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But the reverse wouldn't be true, right? Like, if Kislev and Norsca had fully functioning as designed Waystone networks, the empire would probably be safe without. In the same way that the border princes, estalia, even Araby would be the ones to start getting winds more directly if the empire's network disappeared.
 
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