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Warhammer Fantasy: Divided Loyalties - an Advisor's Quest

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Andres110 said:
Musing. When you cast a spell, the winds you're using gets turned into spell. So if you get Aqshy to cast a fireball spell, once you're done, there's a fireball and no Aqshy. But that fireball is "magical". It's got magical properties, dealing magical damage, so Aqshy's Aegis - which is fully immune to natural fire - is only partially effective against it. It's magical despite its composition completely lacking winds of magic. I'm wondering a little if this has some measure of importance, somehow.
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Winds are magical energy in what can be considered its 'natural' form - one of eight flavours and acting according to its nature. That magical energy when used in a spell is no longer a Wind, because it's now acting according to the will of the person using it instead of according to its own nature, but it's still magical energy, and it still has the potential to revert back to Wind if the Wizard mishandles it. It can also revert back to its original form as a manifestation of the realm of Chaos if things go really wrong, and that's when you get the really nasty miscasts. Or it can be scattered so widely that it no longer has the nature of one of the Winds, and it becomes largely inert magic, sometimes known as 'earthbound' magic.

This is the energy that Runecraft uses, and one of the fundamental secrets of Runecraft is how you can have large amounts of this inert energy in one place with it remaining inert and not remanifesting one of its other natures. It's also the magic that is theorized to be behind the non-Teclisean magics like Hedgecraft and Elementalism and the like, using this inert magic to fuel lesser spells that can take just about any form because they don't have a fundamental nature that one has to work around. That these non-Teclisean traditions are often able to perform feats that Teclisean theory says are impossible using only earthbound magic is a bit of a sticking point in that whole theoretical framework.

Teclisean theory: "Well, technically if you use only tiny amounts of magic then you can shape it into any framework you imagine, but if you get too much magic together it will reassert an identity so you could only cast the most petty and minor of spells..."
Elementalists: "Haha fire golem goes brrr."
 
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Absoloot said:
I mean, this is true. Plenty of cities throughout history have been built on or near 'dormant' volcanoes. I don't have any hard statistics, but I'm sure quite a few cities regret that choice, while many others are still going strong. Does that make building near a volcano a bad decision or wrong? Well, certainly not if you don't have any other choice or the place has a commiserate benefit to taking the risk.

It's reasonable to be cautious about putting a Great Library built with our Transcendent Boon next to a creature that could wipe it out in an afternoon. Is it likely that Cython would do that? Probably not, but good luck convincing the dwarfs not to consider it a threat, and they aren't even wrong. He's essentially a sapient natural disaster lol. They'd go nuts on the fortifications to his part of the mountain; no way that's gonna be 'quiet' either.
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You seem to be under the mistaken impression that Cython couldn't turn the eight peaks into the one crater if they so choose. Setting up anywhere in K8P means being within sight, and nigh-instant striking range, of a dragon's lair.

BoneyM said:
Elementalists: "Haha fire golem goes brrr."
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On a related matter… got any opinion on the Elemental Bear?
 
Angelform said:
On a related matter… got any opinion on the Elemental Bear?
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I think it's cool as hell, but as much as I'd like to believe that I've got a fan slipping references into the Total Warhammer series - there was some speculation about the Witch Hunter in one of the DLCs - it's something that could very easily be unrelated. Kislev has four major Gods: Winter, Bear, Lightning, Sun. It's not unlikely that someone trying to come up with cool shit out of that would independently end up with something bearicane-y.
 
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Fanhunter696 said:
I don't really see the point in doing 2 EIC this turn, I can see that having Eike visiting this turn makes a lot of sense, but why use another action here when we have many actions that will only be available this turn?

We can try to finish several Duckling actions this turn since it is the last turn that they will be available.

Or we can take a couple actions on Belegar's last assignment to be sure to end it properly

But why use those extra AP on the Karnos thingy, when the greatest argument in favor of doing so is "we have a Spy organisation, we should use it to spy someone"... I am not against inserting our agents there, but I don't see the urgency of needing to do it this precise turn.
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I want to investigate the Karnos thing because of the suspicious recurring thread of weird god worship and I'd like to figure stuff out about it sooner rather than later. We have no idea how urgent it is: perhaps it could wait a few more turns, or perhaps it is something that needs to be addressed quickly. We won't know until we do the spying.

I also feel like EIC actions are going to be very valuable in the near future. There have been mentions of synergizing the EIC with the library, with book collectors acting as part of the intelligence network. Getting that set up would probably take up an EIC action, if not multiple. I also want to get our claws into Nordland soon, because of the enormous Nordland/Middenland/Laurelorn political mess we are likely going to get involved in whether we like it or not. And I think that Nordland's government is going to be the biggest obstacle for finding peaceful solutions there.
 
Hm. Regarding Adela, Panoramia, and windshrooms: @picklepikkl

I'm currently thinking of recruiting Adela as something relatively time-limited. If we wait six months, there's a solid chance she'll end up ensconced in the gunnery school and will end up being harder to recruit - and that's if she doesn't just straight up leave K8P. (Panoramia isn't nearly as time-critical, since she's got steady employment and is midway though a multi-year project, and thus isn't going anywhere.)

So I'm willing to take the slight inefficiency in our windshroom studies in order to maximize the chances of recruitment.
 
Valmond said:
Library accessibility matters because researcher, librarians, scribes, etc, @picklepikkl

I'm currently thinking of recruiting Adela as something relatively time-limited. If we wait six months, there's a solid chance she'll end up ensconced in the gunnery school and will end up being harder to recruit - and that's if she doesn't just straight up leave K8P. (Panoramia isn't nearly as time-critical, since she's got steady employment and is midway though a multi-year project, and thus isn't going anywhere.)

So I'm willing to take the slight inefficiency in our windshroom studies in order to maximize the chances of recruitment.
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Why not do both @Redshirt Army ?

I mean we can just take two Duckling actions instead of two EIC actions this turn, I don't really see the urgency of introducing spies to the Karnos cult in this specific turn...
 
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Redshirt Army said:
Hm. Regarding Adela, Panoramia, and windshrooms: @picklepikkl

I'm currently thinking of recruiting Adela as something relatively time-limited. If we wait six months, there's a solid chance she'll end up ensconced in the gunnery school and will end up being harder to recruit - and that's if she doesn't just straight up leave K8P. (Panoramia isn't nearly as time-critical, since she's got steady employment and is midway though a multi-year project, and thus isn't going anywhere.)

So I'm willing to take the slight inefficiency in our windshroom studies in order to maximize the chances of recruitment.
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While her getting tied up in a gunnery school is a real possibility, I don't think Adela is going to leave the K8P on her own any time soon.

Adela's Divided Loyalties are Nepotism, and she has steadily been dragging family members into the Karaks ever since she joined up. She ain't abandoning all her work that easily.
 
Yeah, letting Adela in tends to bring a BOGOF or even Three-For-One deal on less-impressive knockoff Burgstallers.

Re the DUCK action, I'd expect Waaaghsoak Mushrooms to still be available as an WEBMAT Action in future turns, it's very multi-winds-collaboration-enabling after all. Meaning we can see if Panoramia just needs a little pep talk and confidence boost to go for Magister... or if indeed there is something more fundamental dissuading her- and it's thus a 'final chance' Duckling half action.

I feel like we should also make some attempt at arcane-mark taming. Regimand did it for his smokebeard, after all, I think it's good form.
So, maybe this?

[ ] Plan Promote-Pan & Tinker-Tongs
-[ ] MAX: Recruit him into the research branch of WEB-MAT
-[ ] JOHANN: Recruit him into the research branch of WEB-MAT
-[ ] DUCK: Panoramia's about ready to test for Magister, but she's putting it off because she doesn't have a lot of free time to prepare. Work with her to help make the most of every spare minute.
-[ ] EIC: Insert agents into a particular province, cult, company, or institution to start gathering their secrets. (Cult of Karnos, Talabecland)
-[ ] Investigate the possibility of using one Wind to directly manipulate another.
--[ ] COIN: Gambler
-[ ] Gain enough control of your unruly shadow to still it temporarily.
-[ ] Organize and coordinate investigations by Miners and Prospectors and collate the information they gather into a unified map
-[ ] Attempt to recruit Egrimm van Horstmann into WEB-MAT
-[ ] SERENITY: Write a paper: Daemonic Concealment of Karak Vlag
-[ ] PENTHOUSE: Build a basic tower of single-Wind environments for each of the 'missing' Winds: Light, Amber, Amethyst, and Gold

But it's late here, and voting will open while I'm out.
 
Redshirt Army said:
I'm currently thinking of recruiting Adela as something relatively time-limited. If we wait six months, there's a solid chance she'll end up ensconced in the gunnery school and will end up being harder to recruit - and that's if she doesn't just straight up leave K8P.
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Why? She's already been there for four years: we found out about her getting involved at the gunnery school on the social turn 2482.5. If she'd just started, sure, I'd understand your concern, but the ship has already kind of sailed on that, she's been part of the school for over half the time she's even been at Karak Eight Peaks. So I don't see why six months would make a difference.
Alliterate said:
Re the DUCK action, I'd expect Waaaghsoak Mushrooms to still be available as an WEBMAT Action in future turns, it's very multi-winds-collaboration-enabling after all.
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No, I checked that yesterday, which is where my whole efficiency train of thought came from.
picklepikkl said:
Once WEBMAT is set up and Duckling Club is no more, recruiting someone to WEBMAT would occupy one of the WEBMAT half-actions, and studying an artifact with someone within WEBMAT would as well, but studying an artifact with someone outside WEBMAT would be a personal action?
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BoneyM said:
That's the current plan.
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Alliterate said:
Hmm. Well, you could still recruit Pan to WEBMAT for a half action and then research mushrooms for another half action.
Coaching through exams won't have any efficiencies at all in the future.
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Sure, but then why bother building the four Wind towers for the mushroom research if we're going to be waiting an unknown and indefinite amount of time for Panoramia to finish her job with the Halflings? And once she's finished her job with the Halflings, coaching becomes unnecessary. The whole reason coaching is an option is because she said at Duckling Club years ago that she doesn't have time to prep for exams because she's busy with work, so once she concludes the Eastern Valley project she won't need coaching anymore. So in that respect, mushrooms and Magisterhood both have a "the AP efficiency changes once Panoramia leaves her current job" rider.
 
picklepikkl said:
Sure, but then why bother building the four Wind towers for the mushroom research if we're going to be waiting an unknown and indefinite amount of time for Panoramia to finish her job with the Halflings? And once she's finished her job with the Halflings, coaching becomes unnecessary. The whole reason coaching is an option is because she said at Duckling Club years ago that she doesn't have time to prep for exams because she's busy with work, so once she concludes the Eastern Valley project she won't need coaching anymore. So in that respect, mushrooms and Magisterhood both have a "the AP efficiency changes once Panoramia leaves her current job" rider.
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Towers because we're setting up a multi wind institute.
I also assume Jade Magisters can command more of the Jade College Waystone knowledge than Journeymanlings, if Pan was going to consult.
 
We won't be asking Pan for jade secrets, we'll be going through official channels, and Pan does not have time for another fulltime job.
 
Alliterate said:
Towers because we're setting up a multi wind institute.
I also assume Jade Magisters can command more of the Jade College Waystone knowledge than Journeymanlings, if Pan was going to consult.
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Fair enough, it's true that having a mono-Wind environment for every wind will probably pay off if we ever want to expand those towers with additional functionality. And it's a nice gesture to start WEBMAT off with. So I guess it makes sense to do it even if you aren't going to Windshroom research for a long time -- though, since this is a collaborative project with Panoramia, she might decide to publish some of our initial results herself if we aren't taking action to finish the research project or write the book.

(I'm also totally in favor of helping Pan test for Magister, but when I took the thread temperature on this yesterday people didn't seem inclined to support it. I'd vote for your plan, but unfortunately one of my only dealbreakers this turn is Eike.)
Valmond said:
We won't be asking Pan for jade secrets, we'll be going through official channels, and Pan does not have time for another fulltime job.
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Alliterate is talking about the future after she finishes with the Halflings and we can try to recruit her to WEBMAT. Not right now.
 
I not really sure WEB-MAT would even really be her thing In The long run.
Pan is very much and Ag-magic girl, farming, cultivation etc etc. Long term, WEB-MAT is not really her field.

Its like nasa hiring a biologist: yes, sometimes they need your skills, but as An outside expert they can contact and bring in on projects, not an full time employee like an engineer or physicist.
 
And by that time comes we will already have plenty of jade magisters available.
I am not opposed to helping Pan become magister, but i don't see it having much use for WEBMAT or Waystone project.
 
Contrary to the general thread consensus, i think Adela is the best duckling. Ever since we saw her use a steam gun to melt rats.

Algard thinks framing the Gunnery school and the new Branch as sister institutions is a good thing; and Adela is perfect to bridge the two institutions. She's got a leg in both world.
Mathilde did (iirc) make a comment about Adela's tendencies towards the engineering side of things being a "loss" of a scholar of Magic.

Getting her into WEB-MAT could be a way to do a bit of both: a wizard engineer that designs machines powered by steam and magic. (MUAHAHAHA :V)
 
BoneyM said:
This is the energy that Runecraft uses, and one of the fundamental secrets of Runecraft is how you can have large amounts of this inert energy in one place with it remaining inert and not remanifesting one of its other natures. It's also the magic that is theorized to be behind the non-Teclisean magics like Hedgecraft and Elementalism and the like, using this inert magic to fuel lesser spells that can take just about any form because they don't have a fundamental nature that one has to work around. That these non-Teclisean traditions are often able to perform feats that Teclisean theory says are impossible using only earthbound magic is a bit of a sticking point in that whole theoretical framework.
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...These two things seem somehow related. Runecraft uses large amounts of inert magic without turning into normal magic, while Elementalism and Hedgecraft theoretically does the same... and Bok has runes of pure magical energy that Kragg can't even perceive. He was made by elves and dwarves together, not Elementalists, but we also know Teclisean theory leaves out a lot of what the elves know anyways. Methinks we should probably make contact with one of those groups at some point. We're never getting those secrets out of the dwarves, but the Elementalists might be easier.
 
IronFist said:
Algard thinks framing the Gunnery school and the new Branch as sister institutions is a good thing; and Adela is perfect to bridge the two institutions. She's got a leg in both world.
Mathilde did (iirc) make a comment about Adela's tendencies towards the engineering side of things being a "loss" of a scholar of Magic.

Getting her into WEB-MAT could be a way to do a bit of both: a wizard engineer that designs machines powered by steam and magic. (MUAHAHAHA :V)
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I agree that Adela is worth bringing into WEBMAT. My objection has been that from an AP efficiency perspective, doing so right now is not worthwhile because we're about to lose access to Duckling half-actions, and I don't think we have reason to believe recruiting Adela is time-sensitive.
picklepikkl said:
from a pure AP efficiency perspective I don't think it makes sense to recruit Adela this turn, even if you want Adela for WEBMAT. We don't have any reason to believe it's time-sensitive to recruit her this turn (as opposed to Horstmann, where if you want to recruit him at all we want to get him now because there's no guarantee Alric won't send him out again soon), but if we want to study stuff with Panoramia it will cost us a full personal action in the future, which will be in a lot more demand as we start Waystones.
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picklepikkl said:
I'm fine with this and would vote for it; my only issue is that recruiting Adela now and doing mushrooms with Panoramia later is less efficient than the reverse. Recruiting takes a half-action no matter when we do it, but the mushrooms are a half-action now and a full action for the foreseeable future (i.e. until and unless Panoramia joins WEBMAT). If you didn't care about mushrooms, I wouldn't bother bringing it up, but you clearly do because you're taking the Penthouse action that makes finishing the research possible.
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picklepikkl said:
But that's really beside the point, which is that questers who care about both Adela and the windshroom research should do windshrooms this turn and recruit Adela later. And obviously people who don't want to recruit Adela at all aren't going to make plans involving recruiting her now. The only reason to recruit Adela now is if you both want to recruit her and don't value any of the three Panoramia Duckling actions (windshrooms, ghyran seed, Magister exams) very highly; if you do value them (which Redshirt clearly does judging from his Penthouse action), your values are best satisfied by sequencing them efficiently.
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So I want to do Windshrooms now, because otherwise we're not going to do it for years, and leaving our project with Panoramia half-completed indefinitely is likely to result in her just publishing our initial results herself, which defeats the purpose of being able to write the book about it.
 
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