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Thinking on it, I think we can be pretty sure that that magic is doing something, being used in some way.

Mostly just because of this passage:
Stone is not that excellent an insulator of magic. After almost two centuries of constant bombardment, even stone would be affected, but it isn't. Ergo that magic isn't being radiated, it's being used. You try to do the mental calculations for what could be done with that amount of power multiplied by one hundred and eighty-five years, and quickly realize that the better question is what couldn't be done, and that's a damn short list. Also short is the list of beings that would be capable of shaping that amount of power, and damn near every entry on it is Chaos-aligned. The word 'portal' comes uncomfortably to mind. And then you realize that whatever original objective this gambit might have had, the Ice Witches going to the trouble of scouring High Pass clean of snow would have announced that some sort of very important target of opportunity would be approaching.
Just, instead of 185 years it's the better part of a millennia, and magic drained from the whole of Kislev compared to just the flow from Karag Dum.

If that power isn't being used, then by all rights the Widow is sitting on a cache of magic capable of doing almost anything.
 
But the reverse wouldn't be true, right? Like, if Kislev and Norsca had fully functioning as designed Waystone networks, the empire would probably be safe without. In the same way that the border princes, estalia, even Araby would be the ones to start getting winds more directly if the empire's network disappeared.
Probably not? Even if waystones collected everything, which they probably do not and instead keep some ambient winds (whetever because of limited thoroughput or by design is hard to say), the polar gates blew up on both poles.
Thinking on it, I think we can be pretty sure that that magic is doing something, being used in some way.

Mostly just because of this passage:

Just, instead of 185 years it's the better part of a millennia, and magic drained from the whole of Kislev compared to just the flow from Karag Dum.

If that power isn't being used, then by all rights the Widow is sitting on a cache of magic capable of doing almost anything.
Its also worth noting that this entire discussion about viability of just foisting the power on a god was raised by Mathilde herself sometimes within last twenty or thirty updates, because i just reread them. I would grab a quote but i forgot which one it was and i have work in like 5 hours. Either way it sounded like a long shot, Zlata was given some meaningful glances to which she gave vague evasive mysticism answer and no more time was spent contemplating it, so fuck if i know but if Mathilde thinks its at least an option worth(possible to?) exploring, then hey.
 
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Praag is magically weird but it also explicitly IS GETTING BETTER. It used to be magically even weirder. So if anything, seems more like explicit proof that the kislev network DOES work.
I don't think the main thrust of the discussion is whether or not the Kislev network is helping at all, the question is: would a normal way stone network be better at draining Dhar? I.e. could Praag be getting better faster if Kislev hadn't changed their network?
Ultimately we can't know right now, but I am leaning to the traditional waystone network would be faster at draining magic since that is what it is designed to do.

The strongest evidence for this is the Reikland Nexus where we see that changing the function of a waystone nexus to get other benefits does negatively affect its initial purpose.
 
I don't think the main thrust of the discussion is whether or not the Kislev network is helping at all, the question is: would a normal way stone network be better at draining Dhar? I.e. could Praag be getting better faster if Kislev hadn't changed their network?
Ultimately we can't know right now, but I am leaning to the traditional waystone network would be faster at draining magic since that is what it is designed to do.
Nope. The main thrust isn't about what's better, it was born out of discussing whether the vortex is inherently necessary, so the fact that Kislev's network is fixing Praag AT ALL means that kislev's network is taking away magic without the vortex.
 
Yes and if kislev's network is too inefficient the vortex is still inherently necessary.
Not really, it 100% depends on WHY Kislev's network would be too inefficient. If there's a limit to what one God can do for instance then splitting up the issue between more gods is a potential solution, OOC we know that there's a shitload of spare capacity to the dwarf network that only thorgrim knows about (though at this point belegar can probably guess), it could even just be that kislev doesn't have enough tributaries.

Hell, I'd say that even if Kislev's network is inefficient compared to what it COULD be the fact that it's reducing the magic in Praag at all shows that it's still taking magic out of the kislev faster than its coming in. As long as the daemons aren't actively walking around already, faster than its coming in is technically the bare minimum barebones necessity.

Bare minimum barebones necessity isn't GOOD, if that's all we can get I wouldn't want to cut off the empire's network from ulthua out of mere political argument or anything, but if instead we're talking about "malekith blew up the vortex"/"only known connection between the empire and ulthuan got Waaaghed" the possibility to switch over to a barebones emergency alternative is very very important.

(But again, any inefficiency being inherent to the kislev system is not actually established yet)
 
The strongest evidence for this is the Reikland Nexus where we see that changing the function of a waystone nexus to get other benefits does negatively affect its initial purpose.
The Aethyric shunt is actually a proof that pumping land full of singular wind can be beneficial. It doesn't, iirc, pump ghyran from everything upstream, merely drains the local dreaming wood and empties it out as ghyran, but it does lead to one place being ridiculously fertile.
 
Its also worth noting that this entire discussion about viability of just foisting the power on a god was raised by Mathilde herself sometimes within last twenty or thirty updates, because i just reread them. I would grab a quote but i forgot which one it was and i have work in like 5 hours.
I think this is what what you're referring to. The part with Zlata you mentioned is near the end of the discussion.
"So far it seems like halfway between our two hypotheses," you observe. "There's some sort of central control mechanism, but the flow can continue when cut off from the greater network, up until the Waystones reach capacity." You look to Zlata. "And if the flow was maintained instead of being dammed, and energy was being taken out at least as fast as it is being added, then it could last indefinitely." Zlata returns your gaze, gives it some thought, and nods.

"So if we had a way to spend the energies..." Sarvoi begins.

"Including the Dhar?" Elrisse asks pointedly.

Sarvoi considers that. "Ah. Yes, I see your point. There are arguments to be made about lesser evils in some circumstances, but scaling up to a size of a continent means rapidly running out of evils great enough to justify such widespread use of corruptive energies."

"Unless there was a way to convert Dhar into some other, more benign form of energy." You turn your look to Thorek.

"It is said," he says heavily after a long period of thought, "that the Ancestor Gods and those that learned from them could create Runes with that capability. Some of the very least of those techniques were rediscovered by the Runelord Alaric, but he drove himself mad seeking more than that. And only a very few Runelords are capable of reliably using them."

"Would they be at all scalable?" you ask.

"If Kragg had spent his entire long life doing nothing else, then he would perhaps have managed enough to protect a tenth of Altdorf."

You grimace. "And it stands to reason that even if any logistical concerns were handwaved away, any still-existing examples of the greater Runes would have a finite throughput."

Thorek takes even longer to consider this answer. "It does stand to reason," he eventually concludes.

"The only other possibility would be divine," you observe. "A deity willing to dedicate Themselves to a land and take upon Them the burden of purifying a constant stream of Dhar within that land into divine energy."

All eyes turn to Zlata. "Kislev is land, land is Kislev, we are Kislev," she says simply, her voice only betraying a hint of nervousness.

"But even if we simply assume that it would be possible to implement the same approach in the Empire, the merest hint of the idea would instantly split the Empire into at least three parts."

"Bretonnia might be capable of it," Elrisse observes.

"Maybe so, but Bretonnia doesn't have the Grey Mountains between it and Ulthuan."
 
The quote from Boney above suggests to me that casting a spell converts the Wind into first something Wijd adjacent that's the spell itself, and then after the casting has finished into 'denatured' Earthbound magic. That magic probably can't be used for much useful spell casting, but probably also increases the background magic count for the purposes of softening reality or allowing daemons to manifest. That's why the tributaries that extract Earthbound magic are important.

What I suspect the Kislevite sub-network is doing is analagous to the first step. Taking some or all of the Winds and turning them into something like a half-formed spell, the Ice Magic that Ice Witches can use. This might also produce lots of Earthbound magic, producing Earthbound spirits, which Kislev is also well known for. We know that Apparitions eat flavours of magic they like.

This also makes me wonder about the modified Reikland nexus. Is it actually outputting raw Ghyran or is it outputting something similar to Ghyran that has been refined by the trees' souls into being focused on making plants grow, rather than the other things Ghyran can do like make people want to reproduce or control the waters of the Reik.

The energy for the spell effect probably comes from the velocity of the Wind that has now been reduced to near zero.
 
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I suspect the Kislev method works 'better' in the sense that it infuses the land with the narrative of Ice Magic, where everything is trapped in stasis, where impurities are percipitated out and then encased in ice.

So the Chaos Wastes have to deal with tremendous inertia and will need to occupy territory for a long time to turn the land to their nature.

This also leaves it a rather shitty place to live, and doesn't scale up well, it basically is great for your border to Chaos and little else. You could probably use similarly barren metaphors like deserts or mountains to starve out chaos incursions. Bear with the Four until they turn their gaze away, or make them concentrate all their effort on breaking this one rock.

If you do the same with Dreaming Woods or other such effects, it also works great, but the energy is still there, so if they subvert the zone, the whole thing goes sour really fast.
 
Yep. Great trailer with nice attention to detail. At first I thought that some of the more modern (well post steam punk) looking tech felt really out of place, but it actually fits the lore. The Dawi-Zarr used to be just as advanced as the Karaz Ankor millennia ago, but what they do not have is an imperative to adhere to tradition over power and efficiency. So of course they are further along the tech tree than their traditionalist cousins, even if they cheated with magic and Daemons along the way.
 
Not really, it 100% depends on WHY Kislev's network would be too inefficient.

It also depends on whether the purified magic still counts towards the background levels that allow demons to manifest. And I don't think we've got enough data to judge that.

But I think it points to a key difference in perspective: some people think that it's the level of Dhar that matters, others think that magic of any kind matters. And if casting a spell does not use up magic but instead denatures it, then there's exactly one thing in the entire world preventing the overall level of magic from going up.

Vortex vs Kislev seems like the difference between a drain causing a whirlpool and creating a whirlpool by stirring.
 
What I find most interesting is how they implemented prosthetic devices into Astragoth's design:
From the article: "Astragoth Ironhand is the oldest living sorcerer-prophet of the Chaos Dwarfs. The High Priest of Hashut and once the most potent sorcerer to walk the Plain of Zharrduk, Astragoth's waning powers are a result of prolonged petrification, leaving him bound to a mechanical device that grants him movement."

I don't know if this was ever elaborated on in another source material. I haven't really read any firsthand sources on Chaos Dwarves, but using prosthetic devices to deal with petrification is a really interesting concept for older Sorceror Prophets.
 
What I find most interesting is how they implemented prosthetic devices into Astragoth's design:
From the article: "Astragoth Ironhand is the oldest living sorcerer-prophet of the Chaos Dwarfs. The High Priest of Hashut and once the most potent sorcerer to walk the Plain of Zharrduk, Astragoth's waning powers are a result of prolonged petrification, leaving him bound to a mechanical device that grants him movement."

I don't know if this was ever elaborated on in another source material. I haven't really read any firsthand sources on Chaos Dwarves, but using prosthetic devices to deal with petrification is a really interesting concept for older Sorceror Prophets.
Well, he did kind of have something like that in his tabletop model too.
From the Wiki:

"When he was at the height of his powers he was the most potent sorcerer to walk the Plain of Zharrduk in a thousand years. Now his powers have begun to wane. His body is slowly succumbing to petrification. A decade ago he constructed a mechanical device by which he is transported from place to place.[1a]"

"His legs have long ceased to work and even his hands have now turned to stone. To an extent these have been replaced by the machinery grafted to his body. This engine was constructed by his slaves to plans created by Astragoth himself, and combines the undoubted skills of the Chaos Dwarf race with twisted dark science.[2a]"

"Astragoth is encased within a machine that enables him to walk and powers his petrified limbs, besides giving him additional protection from attacks. Its steam-driven pistons, which have replaced Astragoth's muscles and sinews, allow him to strike his enemies with mechanical force. As a Sorcerer-Prophet he can carry up to four magical items.[2a]"
 
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What I find most interesting is how they implemented prosthetic devices into Astragoth's design:
From the article: "Astragoth Ironhand is the oldest living sorcerer-prophet of the Chaos Dwarfs. The High Priest of Hashut and once the most potent sorcerer to walk the Plain of Zharrduk, Astragoth's waning powers are a result of prolonged petrification, leaving him bound to a mechanical device that grants him movement."

I don't know if this was ever elaborated on in another source material. I haven't really read any firsthand sources on Chaos Dwarves, but using prosthetic devices to deal with petrification is a really interesting concept for older Sorceror Prophets.
That's straight from their 4th edition book.
 
Well, he did kind of have something like that in his tabletop model too.
The details are obscure enough that I could have mistaken those prosthetics for armor if I wasn't looking for it, but yeah. Looks like he had it before, they just modified it and made it a lot more obvious.
 
What I find most interesting is how they implemented prosthetic devices into Astragoth's design:
From the article: "Astragoth Ironhand is the oldest living sorcerer-prophet of the Chaos Dwarfs. The High Priest of Hashut and once the most potent sorcerer to walk the Plain of Zharrduk, Astragoth's waning powers are a result of prolonged petrification, leaving him bound to a mechanical device that grants him movement."

I don't know if this was ever elaborated on in another source material. I haven't really read any firsthand sources on Chaos Dwarves, but using prosthetic devices to deal with petrification is a really interesting concept for older Sorceror Prophets.

I think that in older material he'd amputated and replaced his legs and hands with prosthetics rather than using an exo-skeleton. Hence 'Ironhand'.
 
I don't know if this was ever elaborated on in another source material. I haven't really read any firsthand sources on Chaos Dwarves, but using prosthetic devices to deal with petrification is a really interesting concept for older Sorceror Prophets.
Apparently that was part of his design even in the early tabletop.


Edit: i wouldn't call what he has "prosthetics" more of an exo skeleton.
 
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