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Warhammer Fantasy: Divided Loyalties - an Advisor's Quest

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Codex said:
I doubt Melkoth would be as good at teaching other Battle Magic as he is at teaching his custom spell that he can cast by waving his hand, although one might argue that it's so ingrained in him that it could be harder to teach than other spells, but he had to have taught dozens of people how to do it. It's the Signature BM Spell of the Grey College.
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Whilst he absolutely has traits and bonuses for his own spell, I wouldn't be surprised if he had some for battle magic in general, which would still make him a valuable teacher should we chose to go down that path.
 
So, I knew Warhorses, particularly the warhorses employed by the Heavy Cavalry who regularly go on charges, tend to be prohibitively expensive. What I didn't expect is for 4E to place the cost of a single Destrier as 230 Gold Crowns. That is an astonishing amount by 4E standards, because the workshop of a top tier Artisan, the best of the best, is somewhere around the ballpark of 160 GC.

Destriers might be one of the most expensive single items in the Warhammer world that aren't magical in some manner.

EDIT: A river barge is 225 Gold Coins to purchase, so that's certainly something.
 
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Boney said:
Office of the Auditors General:
Headed by Rudiger von Bechafen
Office located in the Sunken Palace, somewhere beneath Wurtbad
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I was browsing the organisations threadmark, and saw that this had been added to it under the EIC. Not sure if that means we're getting the auditors division for free, or that if we establish one, it's simply going to be located there, or if it's just a misleading name for the espionage wing.
 
Codex said:
So, I knew Warhorses, particularly the warhorses employed by the Heavy Cavalry who regularly go on charges, tend to be prohibitively expensive. What I didn't expect is for 4E to place the cost of a single Destrier as 230 Gold Crowns. That is an astonishing amount by 4E standards, because the workshop of a top tier Artisan, the best of the best, is somewhere around the ballpark of 160 GC.

Destriers might be one of the most expensive single items in the Warhammer world that aren't magical in some manner.

EDIT: A river barge is 225 Gold Coins to purchase, so that's certainly something.
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The reason they were expensive and thus the domain of the nobility in the real world was because they took a lot of man-hours to maintain. You had to specially breed, groom, and most of all train them to carry a man on their back who is fighting and riding at the same time, and not freak out and kill itself in the middle of a noisy, chaotic battle. So you're paying horse breeders and grooms and stablemasters and farriers and of course you have to buy all the specialized equipment. They take a lot to feed too, you can't just graze them - warhorses were huge and needed more nutritious grain, which meant you were buying that instead of using your pastures.

So I wonder if the high cost is a way of abstracting all that.
 
ScottishMongol said:
The reason they were expensive and thus the domain of the nobility in the real world was because they took a lot of man-hours to maintain. You had to specially breed, groom, and most of all train them to carry a man on their back who is fighting and riding at the same time, and not freak out and kill itself in the middle of a noisy, chaotic battle. So you're paying horse breeders and grooms and stablemasters and farriers and of course all the specialized equipment. They take a lot to feed too, you can't just graze them - warhorses were huge and needed more nutritious grain, which meant you were buying that instead of using your pastures.

So I wonder if the high cost is a way of abstracting all that.
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I suppose that is the case. Light Warhorses are 70 Gold Crowns, significantly cheaper, but Light Warhorses are the ones uses by Light Cavalry and so they tend to be less powerful, carry less weight, and they tend to be more skittish because you're using skirmish tactics with them rather than actually charging. The book is already 353 pages long and gets really cumbersome on the details at some points, so I imagine they had to make some abstractions. And it's even less specific and "gritty" than some of 2E's stuff, which is saying something.
 
ScottishMongol said:
The reason they were expensive and thus the domain of the nobility in the real world was because they took a lot of man-hours to maintain. You had to specially breed, groom, and most of all train them to carry a man on their back who is fighting and riding at the same time, and not freak out and kill itself in the middle of a noisy, chaotic battle. So you're paying horse breeders and grooms and stablemasters and farriers and of course you have to buy all the specialized equipment. They take a lot to feed too, you can't just graze them - warhorses were huge and needed more nutritious grain, which meant you were buying that instead of using your pastures.

So I wonder if the high cost is a way of abstracting all that.
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They're basically the medieval air superiority fighter huh.
IronFist said:
Existential question: does the Arcane Mark forgettable face affect the wizard?
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Boney mentioned before the specific manifestation will be determined only when we roll it.
 
Codex said:
So, I knew Warhorses, particularly the warhorses employed by the Heavy Cavalry who regularly go on charges, tend to be prohibitively expensive. What I didn't expect is for 4E to place the cost of a single Destrier as 230 Gold Crowns. That is an astonishing amount by 4E standards, because the workshop of a top tier Artisan, the best of the best, is somewhere around the ballpark of 160 GC.

Destriers might be one of the most expensive single items in the Warhammer world that aren't magical in some manner.

EDIT: A river barge is 225 Gold Coins to purchase, so that's certainly something.
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They're one of the most expensive single items period. There's a magical item shop in Middenheim and its most expensive item for sale is 150 GC.
WFRP 4e: Middenheim - City of the White Wolf, page 71
There are a few strange magical items currently for sale at the Vermillion Pawn at the listed price. Unless otherwise noted, magical effects can be used once per day.

Ring of Tongues (80 GC): The wearer of the ring activates it by stating the words 'Speak and be known to me'. For the next hour they understand the following languages as if they were a native speaker: Classical, Bretonnian, Tilean, Elthárin, Gospodarinyi, and Khazalid.

Sword of Fear (150 GC): The wielder of the sword may invoke its power by stating 'Yield or die!' gaining the Fear (2) Trait (WFRP, page 190) for 2d10 rounds. The sword also causes damage to creatures normally immune to nonmagical attacks and benefits from the Fine and Durable Item Qualities (WFRP, page 292).

Magical Dagger (50 GC): The dagger causes damage to creatures normally immune to non-magical attacks and benefits from the Fine and Durable Item Qualities.

Boots of Gucci (50 GC): When activated with the phrase 'Grace is beyond style', the wearer gains the benefits of the Etiquette (Nobles, Guilders, or Servants) Talent for as long as the boots remain on their feet. If they wish, they may speak the phrase again to change which version of the Talent they recieve the benefit of.

Gromril Helm (100 GC): This helm easily fits a Dwarf. It is a normal Plate Helm in all respects but provides 3 AP and benefits from the Fine and Unbreakable Item Qualities. Lukas would find it rather dishonourable to sell the helm unless the customer was a Dwarf.
 
I was browsing the catalogue of products available at the Cubicle Seven store for WFRP now that I've finished the core book, and I came across this description for Ubersreik Adventures 2:

"Ubersreik is a city in turmoil, riven with divided loyalties."

Excellent. I am pleased.
 
So another thing I think we should consider doing with Eike is 'Explore the wonders of the ancient and beautiful city of Tor Lithanel'. I think it's going to be a pretty hard sell in the near future, but perhaps some day we'll have the AP to spare. I think it's a good action to take at some point, since having a deeper understanding of the Cityborn might help us avoid mistakes like we just made with House Tindomiel. We might not be recruiting any other Great House in the near future but the project is still based in Tor Lithanel and there are other interactions with the Eonir where a better diplomacy skill might come in handy - attempting to reach an agreement with the Library of Mournings is one example I can think of.

The reason that I think that this is something we want to do with Eike is that we now know that Eike struggles with diplomacy. Seeing Mathilde interact with the Eonir can be very instructive for several reasons. While Mathilde being bad at diplomacy is something of a meme, she is fairy competent in certain kinds of diplomacy. Mathilde's excellence in dwarven diplomacy isn't really teachable - insert flight school meme, "just reclaim a Karak or two" etc. On the other hand, the Eonir are a foreign non-human polity which have a language that is difficult to master, which is exactly the sort of context in which the polyglot xenophile Mathilde excels, and one where her insights on diplomacy are most transferable.

I also get the impression that Eonir culture, with its emphasis on word plays and being smugly aware of everything at all times, is the kind of culture where doing your homework in advance can really help, and that sort of thing where you use Learning to supplement Diplomacy has been Mathilde's M.O since the start of the quest and is something the Learning focused Eike can also probably learn. We also know that Eike's troubles with diplomacy come in large part from her being too blunt and open, so seeing Mathilde be subtle in her dealings with the Eonir could be particularly useful in teaching her how to overcome that specific flaw.
 
veekie said:
They're basically the medieval air superiority fighter huh.
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Quite literally, yes. A Destrier was an engineered monstrosity that existed to let a knight in full plate harness strike with enough force to kill their peers and absolutely butcher their inferiors. They had no fear, were slabs of muscle, and vicious as hell where they were getting just as much--if not more--murder on than the rider.

They needed full support crews to maintain, and a knight losing their horse was arguably worse than losing their arms, where you'd use a smaller and less vicious horse for riding and smaller scale engagements simply because you didn't dare risk your destrier getting hurt unless the battle was of utmost importance.
 
Since there was talk about the expense of things in 4e, I went back to look at what would be the most expensive items you could buy in 2e. The single most expensive thing you can buy is a Small Palace, priced at 30,000 Gold Crowns, with the runner up being an armoured galleon at 18,000 Gold Crowns.
 
So, throwback time. Remember this moment?
Boney said:
"'We don't want to fight but by Jingo if we do, we've got the guns, we've got the men, we've got the Wizards too. We've fought Parravon before, and while we're Reiklanders true, the Bretonni shall not have a hide east of the Grey.'"

You look from Gehenna, who started the odd verse, and to Johann who joined it midway. "Parravon?"

"An old song from the Third Parravon War, which was revived for the Fourth, which my Master fought in as a Journeyman," Gehenna explains. "There's always some cause that puts the realms of man at each other's throats, and for some reason people are more enthusiastic about them than fighting greenskins or beastmen or marauders or raiders."
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In here, you will find Gehenna mentioning the Third and Fourth Parravon wars. To a particular person like me, this gets me to investigate, but google doesn't help at all. I can't remember a Parravon War from 2E and my keyword searches turn nothing up, so I was a bit confused. I know Boney didn't make this up because I also saw the same "Third Parravon War" in Dynasty of Dynamic Alcoholism, so it rang a bell.

Well consider me surprised when I see that 4th Edition provides accounts of each Parravon War, except none of it is in the wiki as far as I know. Maybe it is and I haven't tried hard enough. The following passages are from the 4th Edition core rulebook, specifically the Reikland Timeline, and also from the "A Guide to Ubersreik" book which is part of the 4th Edition Starter Pack:

881–970 IC
The First Parravon War.
Reikland assaults across the Grey Lady Pass and captures a wide swathe of fertile land from native Bretonii tribesman, driving back the local 'Duc de Paréfon'. However, the land proved diffcult to keep as the local refuse subjugation, instead conducting a guerilla war from the Grey Mountains. The Empire presses on regardless, and colonises the area, forming a new province called Grauesland. However, it is impossible to hold for long, and eventually the Bretonni tribesmen, aided by a local warlord named Gilles, drive the Empire from the south side of the Grey Mountains. (Page 8 Guide to Ubersreik)

2141–2149 IC
The Second Parravon War.
As Ubersreik troops are pulled by King Adalman of Suden Vorbergland to support Reikland allies to the north in their defence against the Undead hosts of Vampire Lord Mannfred von Carstein during the Third Vampire Wars (2124–2145 IC), the Duc of Parravon launches a surprise attack across the Grey Lady Pass aiming to secure Ubersreik. Ubersreik is sacked twice, though Black Rock Castle is never taken. (Page 9 Guide to Ubersreik)

2308–2310 IC
The Third Parravon War.
Parravon attacks, nding Ubersreik's recent military expansion to support the newly rebuilt town unacceptable. The Bretonnians are driven back in late 2309, and a force led by Graf Haldebrand of House Jungfreud besieges Parravon in return, before peace is brokered a year later by King Zaladrin of Karak Azgaraz. (Page 9 Guide to Ubersreik)

2308- 2310 IC
The Third Parravon War.
The Bretonnian duchy of Parravon invades the Reikland across the Grey Lady Pass, claiming the military escalation in Ubersreik caused by the mustering of the new State Army breaks an ancient treaty. They are quickly driven back, and the following year Parravon is besieged. Eventually, after a year of occasional skirmishes outside Parravon's extraordinarily high walls, and a great deal of standing around shouting insults, the King of Bretonnia treats on behalf of Parravon with Emperor Magnus I, ending the war. (Page 274-275 4E Core Book)

2401–2405 IC
The Fourth Parravon War.
Even though Ubersreik is besieged twice, the second time for three years, it does not fall. However, the population drops by almost two thirds to less than 6,000. (Page 9 Guide to Ubersreik)

2402- 2405 IC
The Fourth Parravon War.
The Bretonnian duchy of Parravon again invades the Reikland across the Grey Lady Pass. Ubersreik is besieged twice during the war, but doesn't fall. Peace is eventually brokered by the intervention of Emperor Dieter IV who agrees to pay the Parravonese an extortionate sum of money to retreat, drawing much criticism at court. (Page 275 4E Core Book)

2474 IC
The Fifth Parravon War.
Duc Gaston of Parravon attacks in the spring, besieging Ubersreik. Before the State Armies of Reikland can respond, most of the province of Ubersreik is burning. After sixth months of skirmishes, Parravon withdraws through the Grey Lady Pass. (Page 9 Guide to Ubersreik)
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Reminder that this is all from 4th Edition, so it's not canon unless stated otherwise, but it is the only account of the Parravon Wars that I've managed to get my hands on.
 
I'm curious how many times Ubersreik has been sacked or razed across the various sources. I've gotten the impression that it's the go-to place for when an author needs to destroy a town in Reikland.
 
The First Parravon War feels like it'd quite heavily conflict with previous lore, where what would become Parravon in the wake of the Black Death in 1111IC causing the Empire to withdraw was originally the Western March created by Sigismund the Conqueror's 'Drive to the Frontiers', when he ruled as Emperor from 479-505IC.

EDIT: Actually, I just realized that that'd be a very good linguistic reason for Breton to be so similar as a language to Reikspiel. A significant chunk of what would become Bretonnia had been ruled by Imperials for nearly 500 years before the rise of Gilles.
 
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Sir_Travelsalot said:
The First Parravon War feels like it'd quite heavily conflict with previous lore, where what would become Parravon in the wake of the Black Death in 1111IC causing the Empire to withdraw was originally the Western March created by Sigismund the Conqueror's 'Drive to the Frontiers', when he ruled as Emperor from 479-505IC.

EDIT: Actually, I just realized that that'd be a very good linguistic reason for Breton to be so similar as a language to Reikspiel. A significant chunk of what would become Bretonnia had been ruled by Imperials for nearly 500 years before the rise of Gilles.
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I mean, this one has the benefit of not conflicting with Gilles' existence and the founding of Bretonnia.
 
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Mopman43 said:
I'm curious how many times Ubersreik has been sacked or razed across the various sources. I've gotten the impression that it's the go-to place for when an author needs to destroy a town in Reikland.
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Guide to Ubersreik alone has it being destroyed dozens of times. Every time the Ubersreikers ask the Dwarfs of Karak Azgaraz for help, the Dwarfs refuse, the town gets destroyed, the Dwarfs help rebuild (at a high cost), then it happens all over again. It's explicitly called out as a pattern in the book.

I mean, aside from the Parravonese, the Skaven razed the village and used it for raids during the Black Plague (1111 IC) before Mandred kicked them out. During the Night of the Restless Dead (1681 IC) fully half of the town's inhabitants die because the Gardens of Morr were inside the settlement, and afterwards it was decreed that graves should be outside so the incident wouldn't happen again. During the 1700s IC Waaagh Gorkil destroyed the town before joining Waaagh Gorbad. 1940 IC, Constant Drachenfels poisons the majority of the ruling nobility of Ubersreik. Ubersreik is sacked by Vlad during the First Vampire War (2010+ IC). 2203 IC Drachenfels opens a rift to the Realm of Chaos around his castle for a full week, killing most people between Bogenhafen and Ubersreik, reducing Ubersreik from 15k to 1.5k citizens (this is also mentioned in 8th Edition). Waaagh Zzadrag in 2303 IC during the Great War Against Chaos sacks the city because the Dwarfs refused to protect it after the humans left to support Magnus in Kislev. 2420 IC, Grom rampages through the Reikland region, Ubersreik included, and only 3k citizens are left.

That's 8 catastrophes excluding the five Parravon wars. It's almost impressive.
 
Codex said:
Guide to Ubersreik alone has it being destroyed dozens of times. Every time the Ubersreikers ask the Dwarfs of Karak Azgaraz for help, the Dwarfs refuse, the town gets destroyed, the Dwarfs help rebuild (at a high cost), then it happens all over again. It's explicitly called out as a pattern in the book.

I mean, aside from the Parravonese, the Skaven razed the village and used it for raids during the Black Plague (1111 IC) before Mandred kicked them out. During the Night of the Restless Dead (1681 IC) fully half of the town's inhabitants die because the Gardens of Morr were inside the settlement, and afterwards it was decreed that graves should be outside so the incident wouldn't happen again. During the 1700s IC Waaagh Gorkil destroyed the town before joining Waaagh Gorbad. 1940 IC, Constant Drachenfels poisons the majority of the ruling nobility of Ubersreik. Ubersreik is sacked by Vlad during the First Vampire War (2010+ IC). 2203 IC Drachenfels opens a rift to the Realm of Chaos around his castle for a full week, killing most people between Bogenhafen and Ubersreik, reducing Ubersreik from 15k to 1.5k citizens (this is also mentioned in 8th Edition). Waaagh Zzadrag in 2303 IC during the Great War Against Chaos sacks the city because the Dwarfs refused to protect it after the humans left to support Magnus in Kislev. 2420 IC, Grom rampages through the Reikland region, Ubersreik included, and only 3k citizens are left.

That's 8 catastrophes excluding the five Parravon wars. It's almost impressive.
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Pretty sure Ubersreik was mentioned as being one of the spots Ramhotep attacked when he invaded Reikland in retaliation for the time a Steamtank broke his wall.
 
Ubersreik is built on cursed ground, isn't it?

Then again most of Mallus is cursed ground. Some areas are just more cursed than others.
 
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