Aranfan
Team Plasma Grunt
In the army books for 8e they have the undead rule, as do necromancers, but that's a game mechanic to let them be in undead units. Lore wise neither is actually undead. Same with the Liche Priests, technically.
Warhammer Fantasy: Divided Loyalties - an Advisor's Quest
- Thread starter Boney
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- warhammer warhammer fantasy fantasy be gay do crimes (gay) female protagonist pansexual protagonist ck2 quest divided loyalties mountain vietnam ranald is real this is a dwarf quest (dwarfs) this is maybe an elf quest this is not a vampire quest this is not an empire quest try it and find out open voting
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In the army books for 8e they have the undead rule, as do necromancers, but that's a game mechanic to let them be in undead units. Lore wise neither is actually undead. Same with the Liche Priests, technically.
Not sure if those Dhar infused bodies can do something as natural as biological growth even if they do have a heartbeat.
Aranfan
Team Plasma Grunt
I'm just saying, we can dodge the child looking elder vampire trope if we want to.
I wrote a post with some ideas about our research going forward you might want to take a look at. Getting Dawi Metalsmiths to help us with the Waystone Gold is an interesting idea, I'll add it to the post later, but I don't think it's going to require a boon: this probably falls under "Dwarf Favour help now comes free if it's for the Karaz Ankor", as the Waystone project definitely serves the Karaz Ankor. Regarding the other networks, I actually think Nehekara is our best bet, because the Lights should be more willing to share other people's secrets, just as Niedzwenka was happy to share information about a network she know about but isn't using herself.
I don't have proof that it's not an arcane mark. I never said that either. But we have reason to believe that just Shyish could produce it without an arcane mark, and that that is a meaningful difference. And I could ask just as well: What proof do you have it is an arcane mark? I could argue that occam's razor says less assumptions (aka no mark) is better, but the evidence also suggests that such a mark quite possible, so it's not really a very heavy assumption. Whatever the case, it's not something we can answer with what we know, and the effort to find out isn't really worth it.
Thing + Shyish = thing with stopped growth? I'm genuinely not sure how else to put it, it seems to be clear to me (which to be clear, means that I'm not communicating my point well enough).
The fact that they don't channel shows that the soul aka arcane marks is not necessary at all for the phenomenon.
- Location
- A Pit Of My Own Making
- Pronouns
- He/Him
Yesterday I had a realisation about who we could possibly recruit, in the best case scenario: Grand Hierophant Khatep.
If you don't know him, according to the Lexicanum, Khatep was the first member of the Mortuary Cult to achieve "immortality" (Liche Priests are technically alive, but look very very dead), and knows all of their secrets. When the Tomb Kings first got woken up, he was the one to wake Settra, to prevent a civil war that would tear apart what was left of Nehekhara. Settra was pretty pissed with the Mortuary Cult however, as this new life was nothing like what he was promised. He exiled Khatep from all of the cities of Nehekhara until he found a way to fulfil his promise.
Tbh I'm not sure how we could recruit him, but he would bring a whole lot of Nehekharan lore if we did, especially about the pyramids. I'm not sure he'd be so far from Nehekhara, or even if Mathilde currently knows about him, but maybe its an idea the Light Order can suggest?
If you don't know him, according to the Lexicanum, Khatep was the first member of the Mortuary Cult to achieve "immortality" (Liche Priests are technically alive, but look very very dead), and knows all of their secrets. When the Tomb Kings first got woken up, he was the one to wake Settra, to prevent a civil war that would tear apart what was left of Nehekhara. Settra was pretty pissed with the Mortuary Cult however, as this new life was nothing like what he was promised. He exiled Khatep from all of the cities of Nehekhara until he found a way to fulfil his promise.
Tbh I'm not sure how we could recruit him, but he would bring a whole lot of Nehekharan lore if we did, especially about the pyramids. I'm not sure he'd be so far from Nehekhara, or even if Mathilde currently knows about him, but maybe its an idea the Light Order can suggest?
Or it may come up during study of ancient Nehekharan coinage, as an apparently prominent figure of the kind that may have appeared in coins (assuming that the periods match).
K von Carstein
Likes to go for a walk
- Location
- Belgium
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In Twilight at least that's the case. So vampire children have the temper and the carelessness of a child with the bloodlust and strength of a vampire. The vampire clan in charge of the masquerade has made embracing children a capital crime, because they will inevitably reveal themselves to humans.
He a necromancer from an undead faction, and is in the same weight class as Hatalath. Even if people in the WP knows of him, there's no way we can convince anyone to accept him. Actually I'm pretty sure Mathilde herself would refuse outright. We would have more chance of recruiting the vampire librarian in Nuln than Khatep.
Technically he is not a necromancer, he is a priest of the Mortuary Cult who uses the divine magic of Nehekara, he is also not undead even as much as the other Tomb Kings because he did not rise from his grave, he simply had his life extended by the secrets of his order. His heart still beats... about once a year.
K von Carstein
Likes to go for a walk
- Location
- Belgium
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- He
Yeah, technically he isn't a necromancer. But in practice he still reanimate dead bodies, so I think everyone ´s opinion in-universe would be that's too technical a difference to fly (if they even know).
And that's why I said « member of an undead faction » instead of « undead »😉 Again, I think it's not the kind of technicalities that's acceptable.
- Location
- A Pit Of My Own Making
- Pronouns
- He/Him
That's a point actually. Could he classified as a "foreign priest" like Ice Witches and Damsels are? I mean he is as priest, but can that loophole be used to bring him onto the project?
I think we should find out if he's a friend or a foe, before we try to invite him in.
I do not think he actually animates the dead. All of the walking corpses in Nehekara were made by Nagash's botched ritual, not the Liche Priests and if any of them do get broken I think they just rise again from the tainted earth, driven by their oaths. All in all I think the Colleges could swallow him if we managed to pull it off somehow, they do actually care if someone uses Dhar or not. The General public would of course freak out but the solution to that is not to tell them
*Mathilde shows up at the next meeting of the WP with a mummy in a trenchcoat and a big fake moustache*
Everyone else: "Uh, is that-"
Mathilde: "Yes! This is my good friend Kha-, uh, Karl! A priest I recruited to help the project that is definitely not an unholy abomination!"
*Deceiver coin procs*
Everyone else: "Well, that sounds reasonable."
Everyone else: "Uh, is that-"
Mathilde: "Yes! This is my good friend Kha-, uh, Karl! A priest I recruited to help the project that is definitely not an unholy abomination!"
*Deceiver coin procs*
Everyone else: "Well, that sounds reasonable."
- Location
- Germany
There's propably no law against being a Liche Priest in the Empire (if only because nobody borne in the last few millenia managed it) and there's no Dhar involved, as far as we know.
And technically they are not undead.
So all is well with Khatep-Karl?
And technically they are not undead.
So all is well with Khatep-Karl?
"He's a living member of the Mortuary Cult, and that means he's technically not an unholy abomination."
Well, that's one way of increasing the anticipated awkwardness of Mathilde's eventual meeting with Morr.
Well now that we're telling the truth the coin doesn't work
K von Carstein
Likes to go for a walk
- Location
- Belgium
- Pronouns
- He
I think he does animate them, and at the very least he commands them. In the tabletop the army crumbles if the priests are killed. I'm pretty sure the technicality wouldn't fly, even if he had important knowledge and was friendly.
deathofrats0808
Don’t think of it as dying; just as leaving early
- Location
- Earth
Marius is a really fun character.
Orcs don't really do that so much in Fantasy. They're much less able to just make stuff happen by sheer force of belief.
Dangerous although possible. Canon-wise the Asur have some examples, and seeing as the thread wants to use Elfcation to leverage into access to shinies like that anyway, that might be a way in.
I think Drakenhof is south-east of Mordheim and directly south of Bechafen? I could certainly see an experiment like that as something that occcurred in Sylvania, although honestly I'd bet on Mannfred doing it mroe than Vlad. Also, the Waystone Network being broken there would alos explain the lack of cleansing.
To be fair, the Undead rule does explicitly say that not every unit with it is actually one of the dead, but claims that they're all linked to the will of the sorcerers. I imagine in a Sauron "do my bidding" mental domination way. Liche Priests though basically seem to work on the same principles as the rest of their armies though, needing magic to keep themselves together, even if they're not technically dead.
Liche Priests "know the rituals needed to draw forth spirits from the Realm of Souls and bind them once more into corporeal bodies" which is definitely raising the dead. Khatep specifically brought Settra back from the dead, when Nagash's ritual failed to penetrate the defences on his pyramid and Khatep decided he was needed to prevent Nehekhara being utterly destroyed.
- Location
- Somewhere between the stars
- Pronouns
- She/Her
Even if people were inclinded to let Khatep in on the "technically not dead", which i doubt, since you never wanna be in a situation where "well, technically" is your line of defence.
Khatep is also kind of, a part of the faction that has like, sacked the empire several times. It's a bit different from allies like Dwarfs and Kislev to semi-neutral like the elves to invite him in. Especially since he is the guy who started the whole Tomb King stuff.
People are gonna, and rightfully so that you are inviting Nagash 2.0 into the Empire, given how they come from same place and so forth.
It would be a bit like finding an Ork Shaman really into beating intellectual challengs and was totally willing to come on board to "beat the glowy roks". He might be willing, but the rest of the empire would be having some raised eyebrows
Khatep is also kind of, a part of the faction that has like, sacked the empire several times. It's a bit different from allies like Dwarfs and Kislev to semi-neutral like the elves to invite him in. Especially since he is the guy who started the whole Tomb King stuff.
People are gonna, and rightfully so that you are inviting Nagash 2.0 into the Empire, given how they come from same place and so forth.
It would be a bit like finding an Ork Shaman really into beating intellectual challengs and was totally willing to come on board to "beat the glowy roks". He might be willing, but the rest of the empire would be having some raised eyebrows
Aranfan
Team Plasma Grunt
No one in the empire is going to care to make that distinction.
Khatep's Nehekaran Necromancy 102:
Step 1: Acquire a stick.
Step 2: Approach a skeleton
Step 3: Prod it until it gets up
Step 4: Wait for it to recognize you as a Liche Priest.
Step 5: Repeat Steps 1-4 until you have assembled an army.
Step 1: Acquire a stick.
Step 2: Approach a skeleton
Step 3: Prod it until it gets up
Step 4: Wait for it to recognize you as a Liche Priest.
Step 5: Repeat Steps 1-4 until you have assembled an army.
The argument that Khatep is like Nagash is sort of like arguing that the colleges of magic are evil because Black Magisters are a thing, Nagash is a heretic and madman to the rest of the Liche priests. Also Khatep may or may not be worshiping Mor in a funny mustache.
As for sacking the Empire at one point or another... so did Bretonia. Not saying it would be as easy of a sell as a Damsel, we do not have a history of working with Liche Priests as much as against them, but I do not think you would get tha sort of unthinking rejection that an orc would. For one thing the Lights must have gotten their lore from somewhere and I doubt they looted it.
K von Carstein
Likes to go for a walk
- Location
- Belgium
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- He
Imo, it comes from when the Nehekharans conquered parts of the territory that would become the Empire. Nehekharan culture likely had an influence on the local populations, and some of their magical knowledge might have trickled towards the existing traditions of those regions. I highly doubt lich priests would teach their arcane secrets to adventuring wizards visiting Nehekhara.
edit: and Khatep is still reanimating dead bodies, there's no way anyone in the Empire wouldn't try to kill him on sight.
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