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Warhammer Fantasy: Divided Loyalties - an Advisor's Quest

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deathofrats0808 said:
Except as I mentioned, 1) Boney is not limited to canon arcane marks. and 2) I disagree with you on how severe the problems arcane marks cause are. Especially the temper ones. There are non-magic people with bad tempers who have been successful rulers. Napoleon was noted having a terrible temper, but his people loved him and he was generally a decent ruler.
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Yeah, but he still uses only canon ones. And I disagree with you on the arcane marks. Napoleon's temper wasn't supernaturally induced, and in general it's still less than optimal. But I guess we won't convince the each other.
 
Arcane mark or not, Mandred can't be that much stranger than Averland's EC, who is, oh what's a polite way to say this, not playing with a full deck of cards, if you get what I mean.
 
K von Carstein said:
Yeah, but he still uses only canon ones. And I disagree with you on the arcane marks. Napoleon's temper wasn't supernaturally induced, and in general it's still less than optimal. But I guess we won't convince the each other.
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Boney is more free to use custom Arcane Marks with NPCs. Regimand, for example, has a smokey beard, which isn't present in canon material as far as I know. Gretel's disturbing appearance also doesn't exactly match with the canon Arcane Marks, as while there are Marks for whithering muscles and a skull like visage or jaunedice/grave stench, there isn't anything that stretches your limbs out and makes you gangly.
 
Codex said:
Boney is more free to use custom Arcane Marks with NPCs. Regimand, for example, has a smokey beard, which isn't present in canon material as far as I know. Gretel's disturbing appearance also doesn't exactly match with the canon Arcane Marks, as while there are Marks for whithering muscles and a skull like visage or jaunedice/grave stench, there isn't anything that stretches your limbs out and makes you gangly.
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I thought that was because Shysh caught her right in puberty when she hadn't finished growing and fixed that in place? Not directly an arcane mark.
 
DragonParadox said:
Now that it looks pretty likely that the librar-We will be happening what do you guys think the long term effects will be?
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I am (much) less than optimistic about the We as the winning vote, so if you think something different feel free to ignore these lines as the doomsaying of a killjoy.

Now, with the disclaimer out of the way, considering the other stuff that Mathilde has done in Karak Eight Peaks and the extra dose of spooky that the We are going to represent for many... The real world analogy that comes to mind is a nuclear power plant. Something that is undeniably important and often valued, but rarely embraced by the local community, so as far as the locals are concerned I see it ending as more of Mathilde's wizard stuff that they don't really interact much with.

I don't expect things to be much better in regards to visitors, unless the library manages to amass a truly formidable collection. There is an extremely strong in-universe bias against both "wizard" and "weird", so reputation was always likely to be something of an uphill battle, even before spider librarians, and location is sufficiently remote that it doesn't help.

I am also concerned about the ongoing kerfuffle involving the silk trade reflecting poorly on the library. Last I checked, the relevant dwarven guild was making slanderous accusations aimed at We silk and I imagine that any trade partners they may have in the human realms (Marienburg?) are likely to follow if the silk situation ever becomes viable in K8P.

In the plus side, if We silk eventually becomes established as a luxury good is likely to be good for their reputation (in no small part because there will be people invested in helping build that reputation to increase their earnings), which may eventually be good for the library's own reputation, although I expect this to be a long term effect after a fair few years, at least.
 
BurnNote said:
I thought that was because Shysh caught her right in puberty when she hadn't finished growing and fixed that in place? Not directly an arcane mark.
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That was Mathilde's internal speculation, but it's not like she ever asked Gretel. I don't think that's the kind of stuff she'd bring up. Even so, it's a visible manifestation of magic altering her body, so what constitutes an "Arcane Mark" at that point becomes a matter of semantics.
 
Codex said:
That was Mathilde's internal speculation, but it's not like she ever asked Gretel. I don't think that's the kind of stuff she'd bring up. Even so, it's a visible manifestation of magic altering her body, so what constitutes an "Arcane Mark" at that point becomes a matter of semantics.
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I disagree, that's not just semantics. Arcane Marks are part of your soul becoming altered by magic. On the other hand, you can just have your body altered by magic without touching the soul. That's a lot less final. And we've seen Shysh inhibit growth with the mushrooms, but that presumably didn't mean it altered their souls. So there's actually good evidence for that theory.

For Gretel, it doesn't matter, because she'd have to stop doing magic for quite a while to see if growth sets in again, and it might not work either because her body considers her growth finished or she's got other marks that produce enough to make it meaningless.
 
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Orbmorb said:
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Isn't that an Eldar D-Cannon but less reliable? If the Skaven make that then the Orks will reverse reverse engineer it to make Shokk Attack Kannon.
 
BurnNote said:
I disagree, that's not just semantics. Arcane Marks are part of your soul becoming altered by magic. On the other hand, you can just have your body altered by magic without touching the soul. That's a lot less final. And we've seen Shysh inhibit growth with the mushrooms, but that presumably didn't mean it altered their souls. So there's actually good evidence for that theory.

For Gretel, it doesn't matter, because she'd have to stop doing magic for quite a while to see if growth sets in again, and it might not work either because her body considers her growth finished or she's got other marks that produce enough to make it meaningless.
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There are many Arcane Marks that exhibit physical changes. What's your proof that what Gretel's going through isn't an Arcane Mark?
 
Say on the subject of Marks. Do the colleges have any solid idea what happens when you have too many or enough that your soul is fully transformed?
 
IronFist said:
The only thing i can think of is the Waaghsoak Mushrooms. They also display arrested growth when exposed to Shyish.
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I don't understand how that proves what Gretel is going through isn't an Arcane Mark. The Mushrooms weren't channeling Shyish through their soul, they were just exposed to Shyish, so the circumstances are substantially different anyways.
 
Murazor said:
I am (much) less than optimistic about the We as the winning vote, so if you think something different feel free to ignore these lines as the doomsaying of a killjoy.

Now, with the disclaimer out of the way, considering the other stuff that Mathilde has done in Karak Eight Peaks and the extra dose of spooky that the We are going to represent for many... The real world analogy that comes to mind is a nuclear power plant. Something that is undeniably important and often valued, but rarely embraced by the local community, so as far as the locals are concerned I see it ending as more of Mathilde's wizard stuff that they don't really interact much with.

I don't expect things to be much better in regards to visitors, unless the library manages to amass a truly formidable collection. There is an extremely strong in-universe bias against both "wizard" and "weird", so reputation was always likely to be something of an uphill battle, even before spider librarians, and location is sufficiently remote that it doesn't help.

I am also concerned about the ongoing kerfuffle involving the silk trade reflecting poorly on the library. Last I checked, the relevant dwarven guild was making slanderous accusations aimed at We silk and I imagine that any trade partners they may have in the human realms (Marienburg?) are likely to follow if the silk situation ever becomes viable in K8P.

In the plus side, if We silk eventually becomes established as a luxury good is likely to be good for their reputation (in no small part because there will be people invested in helping build that reputation to increase their earnings), which may eventually be good for the library's own reputation, although I expect this to be a long term effect after a fair few years, at least.
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On your first point.
I am going to disagree on locals not embracing the library.
It will take time, years, if not decades, but the size and uniqueness is going to be working in the library's behalf, eventually the locals are going to be proud of having it, and not giving a fuck about the librarian while visitors freak out, think Altdorf and College's of magic as an example.
They might not visit the library much, but that is mostly out of not having any reason to.
And as i have previously mentioned, Library being a major economic actor is going to also act in its favour long term.
It is not going to be as central part, no, but then that was a known issue from the vote descriptions already.

Library will amass a truly formidable collection, the question is not if, it is when, and K8P is so out of the way that very few people are going to make the trip no matter who the librarian is, and if the issue is important enough to do the trip, some giant spiders are unlikely to stop them.

Not sure why you think the We Silk kerfuffle is relevant to the library. Though as you mentioned, if/when the silk production kicks in, the sheer economic factors are going to largely negate any problems, even assuming some dwarven guilds are going to actually try to attack a hold as important as K8P.
 
Codex said:
I don't understand how that proves what Gretel is going through isn't an Arcane Mark. The Mushrooms weren't channeling Shyish through their soul, they were just exposed to Shyish, so the circumstances are substantially different anyways.
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It's the same end result, so it may have the same cause.

Otoh, It's likely that Gretel is an exception, rather than the Norm, because otherwise any Amethysts recruited as children would remain that size.
 
Murazor said:
I am (much) less than optimistic about the We as the winning vote, so if you think something different feel free to ignore these lines as the doomsaying of a killjoy.

Now, with the disclaimer out of the way, considering the other stuff that Mathilde has done in Karak Eight Peaks and the extra dose of spooky that the We are going to represent for many... The real world analogy that comes to mind is a nuclear power plant. Something that is undeniably important and often valued, but rarely embraced by the local community, so as far as the locals are concerned I see it ending as more of Mathilde's wizard stuff that they don't really interact much with.

I don't expect things to be much better in regards to visitors, unless the library manages to amass a truly formidable collection. There is an extremely strong in-universe bias against both "wizard" and "weird", so reputation was always likely to be something of an uphill battle, even before spider librarians, and location is sufficiently remote that it doesn't help.

I am also concerned about the ongoing kerfuffle involving the silk trade reflecting poorly on the library. Last I checked, the relevant dwarven guild was making slanderous accusations aimed at We silk and I imagine that any trade partners they may have in the human realms (Marienburg?) are likely to follow if the silk situation ever becomes viable in K8P.

In the plus side, if We silk eventually becomes established as a luxury good is likely to be good for their reputation (in no small part because there will be people invested in helping build that reputation to increase their earnings), which may eventually be good for the library's own reputation, although I expect this to be a long term effect after a fair few years, at least.
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Not addressing the "We silk reputation" argument right now because I only just woke up and my brain isn't entirely on yet, but can we not bring up the "The We are scary/weird and people won't be inclined to use the Library as a result" argument again? It hasn't led anywhere good, and it's out of character for Mathilde anyhow.
Boney said:
Without going into any comparisons to real-life groups, Mathilde would not be that likely to ask the question of the We in the first place, because every argument that the We should conceal their involvement in the library for the comfort of those with phobias could apply equally as much to the position that Mathilde should conceal her involvement in the library too. There are a lot of people that would be deeply uncomfortable coming to a Wizard's library, and some of them would have that stem from deeply and genuinely traumatic experiences at the hands of magic-users. But on the other hand, Mathilde has had her own traumatic experience stemming from people getting too used to the idea that they can use their fear to dictate what the world should look like.

In practice, the most likely solution would be that people can write to the library and request books on a required topic be set up in a reading room (which would be normal practice for the more valuable or restricted books that only librarians can access the storage of) and then they can come to the library and make their way to that reading room without having to interact with any of the spiders they might pass. That's still going to be some degree of uncomfortable for some people, but so is Mathilde going about her life in Karag Nar in full Wizard regalia.
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Boney said:
Choosing who to hire for the library means that will be the first resort for staffing the library itself wherever feasible. If Mathilde hires spiders or orphans or Halflings then Mathilde is not going to hire a token non-spider/orphan/Halfling receptionist just because some people might not want to interact with a spider or orphan or Halfling. If people don't like whoever Mathilde hires, they can interact with the library by post or not at all.
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As for the Mandred & Arcane Marks discussion... We've always had these "try and control our arcane marks" actions, but always prioritized other stuff. I think the same might apply to a decent number of other Wizards, either due to more interesting things to spend time on or because they just don't see it as a problem.

How Arcane Marks affect people who don't care that much about the Marks, might not be reflective of how Arcane Marks affect a political figure who is much more strongly incentivized to try and control their Marks or find ways around them.

EDIT: Which isn't to say that those Arcane Marks couldn't be troublesome or that some Winds might have more problematic Marks for a political figure than others, but we may be overestimating the potential problems because we mostly exist in a bubble of people who don't need to care as much about reducing/manipulating the effects of their Marks.
 
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