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I feel like this is a better argument for Orphans, whom are more disadvantaged than everyone living at K8P because they're penniless orphans and most of them will likely end up becoming criminals or at best, menial workers because their job prospects are not great.
This is a solid point and I'll approval vote them; they're behind now, but like I said in my roundup post, comebacks can and do happen.

[X] Locals
[X] Cult of Verena
[X] Orphans
 
Accelerated copying is meaningless if people can't afford to own books, which is the whole point of a library—to make books and education available to everyone.

As for the "assumption" that hiring locals will have an effect upon the local community—that's literally a stated benefit of that specific option, so if you have a problem with how unrealistic it is that people would want to use a public institution run by their friends, family and neighbours, take it up with Boney I guess?

Have some anecdotal evidence—last September I got a job in a bookshop. Ever since then, my parents have significantly increased the amount of books they read because they now have a second hand connection to a place that provides books (and okay, my staff discount helps a lot). My job encourages them to read more, and they've been devouring a wide variety of books across multiple genres when previous to my employment their reading habits were more sedate and predictable.

I can't speak against WoG, so that's fair.
But the idea that accelerated copying not helping literacy because lower book costs increase literacy (and that they are separate things) is very strange. What do you think happens when there are increasingly more books available? Do they stay at the same price?
 
I can't speak against WoG, so that's fair.
But the idea that accelerated copying not helping literacy because lower book costs increase literacy (and that they are separate things) is very strange. What do you think happens when there are increasingly more books available? Do they stay at the same price?

I think it doesn't matter how cheap you make a book (especially when all copies are made by a professional scribe, not a printing press, which puts a high floor on the minimum possible price) there will always be a group of people who can't afford them. I literally had a teacher come into my shop on World Book Day because her students came from families that were too poor to come in and pick up their free book and she had to do it on their behalf.

So yeah, more copies of a book is worthless if people can't access them.
 
Well, yes, this isn't the only opportunity, but I feel that librarianship will result in a faster and more well rounded approach than hiring scribes will (although I can't explain my reasoning for this very well because it's one in the morning here and I'm about to collapse, before anyone tries to @ me).
I still don't feel like getting locals for librarians will have that much of an impact on turning this settlement into a giant educational center or something, and that there are significant benefits in that vein that can't be replicated by local scribes.

Understandable about the argument phrasing thing. I personally get stuck on communicating my ideas all the time, regardless of how much sleep I've been getting.

(It's also part of the reason why I hate the exultation of the mystic over the scientific view, as someone who's spent large chunks of my life trying to justify why my views are still valid to people who just seem to not get it, and often failing because I suck at properly expressing myself and debate. The idea of stumbling across something profound and being forced to know that nobody else will ever see or understand it is deeply frustrating for me, and the prospect of intentionally trying mire oneself in that kind of situation on purpose, even more so. It's voluntarily trying to promote ignorance when you don't have to.)
 
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[X] Locals
[X] Cult of Verena
[X] Orphans

'shrugs' interesting point about the Orphans.

I still think there is an off chance we accidentally make a weird Book cult to Mathy if we go that root, but its not like there isn't already a weird book cult in the setting anyways.
 
[X] Locals
[X] Cult of Verena
[X] Orphans

'shrugs' interesting point about the Orphans.

I still think there is an off chance we accidentally make a weird Book cult to Mathy if we go that root, but its not like there isn't already a weird book cult in the setting anyways.
It's probably better than the Dammerlichtreiter cult thing that almost happened—or was just a meme? I don't know, it's been a long time—back in Stirland. Books are awesome.
 
I think it doesn't matter how cheap you make a book (especially when all copies are made by a professional scribe, not a printing press, which puts a high floor on the minimum possible price) there will always be a group of people who can't afford them. I literally had a teacher come into my shop on World Book Day because her students came from families that were too poor to come in and pick up their free book and she had to do it on their behalf.

So yeah, more copies of a book is worthless if people can't access them.

The more detailed writeup is far too many pages back now, but in short: historically increased literacy and all the related goodies came around because of the reduced cost of books, not a separate temporary availability at specific libraries/locations. They, too, didn't start with dirt-cheap prices but simply lower barriers to entry. It was enough.
There is a difference of scale in the comparison that you are making.
 
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Accelerated copying is meaningless if people can't afford to own books, which is the whole point of a library—to make books and education available to everyone.
If you take this assumption as default (although I will point out that the purpose of a library varies greatly and isn't always to promote these things) then surely choosing the locals will simply speed it up, and the end result will still happen anyway, albeit over a longer period of time?
 
[X] The We
[X] Cult of Verena
[X] Orphans

I'm not sure about the Orphans, but it seems in-character enough and I don't see any major problems with it right away, so I'll help give it a boost to try and catch up while I think further on the matter.

...Though, considering Eike and Mandred, we may run the risk of all the adopted orphans inexplicably turning out as Wizards... :V
 
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@picklepikkl
Tried my hand at summarizing pro Cython arguments.

The Dragon Librarian

Cython's lore and books: Mathilde and Cython get to share a hoard, Mathilde gets all these juicy dragon books and dragon knowledge, more opportunities to interact with Cython and include them in Mathilde's activities. It's particularly advantageous now, when she actively works on Waystone project, as, as we've seen in the second to last update, there's certain degree of Hatalath's looking from on high and picking and choosing his engagement. Anything that would help Mathilde to be on more equal footing would help, and Cython is an unparalleled info source for that, as an Emperor dragon they have first hand experience of the world from the time when the Old Ones were active or at least from just after they disappeared.

Library security: The highest possible, unparalleled cunning and might of a thousands year old Emperor Dragon guarantees that the library and the books would be as secure as possible.

Karak security: Threats to the Karak are threats to the library, and the chance of more active Cython participation in Karak's defenses would be higher. Enemies are getting close to Kvinn-Wyr and the library? Goodbye enemies.

Cython's community integration: Cython and other inhabitants of the Karak would be interacting more, leading to proper inclusion of Cython in the community and futher acclimating community to them. Cython is a good and a reasonable person, as evidenced by Mathilde's interations with them as summarized by LadyLynn here, so better integration would be good for both them and community. Belegar would feel more at ease, bless his heart.

Library prestige: No other library would have Wind of Enlightment Emperor Dragon librarian! The prestige, uniqueness and a certain degree of exoticness make the library more attractive compared some other staffing options.

Now for how it would work with sovereignty over books and about partial ownership:
Mathilde would make the spirit of the agreement very clear, in that the books would remain at least as much Mathilde's as they would be Cython's and there would be an expectation of at least some degree of reciprocity. She won't just leave the lot of them in a box on Cython's front porch like a box of abandoned puppies, free to a good home.

For those who are worried about the fate of the library after Mathilde won't be around anymore, the spirit of the agreement obviously includes the purpose of the library and continuation of this purpose through time, and with whatever way of library ownership continuation, through the chain of apprenticeship or the chain of succession of kings of K8P, the library would remain in K8P until K8P stands.

[X] Cython
 
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It's probably better than the Dammerlichtreiter cult thing that almost happened—or was just a meme? I don't know, it's been a long time—back in Stirland. Books are awesome.
I disagree about that.

The Dammerlichtreiter thing was people latching onto a greater than live figure that did something against the darkness they lived their whole lives in. Mathy really wasn't the important part of that, just her legend.

The book cult would be a bit more hands-on in its creation (if unintendedly) so a bit creepier .
 
I think a Library run by the locals is more beautiful to me than one run by the We. Not a single, immortal, mind with dominion over the Library that lasts basically forever (and that applies to Cython too). Instead a culture ongoing and growing, part of the community of K8P and being deeply emeshed into the karak, adding to its sense of identity.
 
Another advantage to Orphans. Mathilde doesn't have much experience hanging around kids, but she's going to have to take care of a teenager very shortly. Maybe two if Mandred ends up going Grey. It would be nice for Mathilde to have at least some experience with people younger than adults and also maybe have people around Eike's age for her to hang out with that Mathilde doesn't need to vet. Because we all know she would if we let Eike just hang out with random Karak kids.
 
I'm looking forward to doing more swording soon. Swords aren't super complicated. You just stab things with them, plain and simple.
I actually totally forgot until yesterday that Branulhune and the Hochlander-in-the-Sunken-Palace stuff was remaining in the turn, I thought social actions were next.

If we succeed on this action, the next Branulhune one would hopefully be the last for developing a unique style. I look forward to wrapping that up. After that... I guess we might try developing that proposed Shadow Sword spell based on Mathilde's mastery of Sword Knives?

But really, most likely we'll want to push towards the AV Chaos Dunk Gigaflex.
 
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The more detailed writeup is far too many pages back now, but in short: historically increased literacy and all the related goodies came around because of the reduced cost of books, not a separate temporary availability at specific libraries/locations. They, too, didn't start with dirt-cheap prices but simply lower barriers to entry. It was enough.
There is a difference of scale in the comparison that you are making.
The idea is making texts cheaper and more available on a wide and mass-produced scale, which in turn makes the written word a more powerful and flexible tool for spreading ideas, which encourages people to become literate so they can get in on it. I really don't see how hiring locals as librarians is really going to help with this. Sure, it'll make people feel more connected to KAU, but the spread of literacy requires lots of people getting free access to written material all over the place. Giving everyone a library card is nice, but it simply isn't enough. To really encourage higher literacy rates through books, we'd have to give a bunch of copies of books to everyone or something, and that's just way too expensive in a pre-movable-printing-press world.
 
The Youngest Faith
The Youngest Faith

"What gods do the spiders mind worship?"

The question came as you were in the middle of a particularly detailed and purple prosed scene in your book, it was clear that whoever the original narrator whose testimony was collected was rather passionate on the subject at state. Granted, the first official deployment of the Luminark of Hysh does seem to be an event worth of awe. But a niggling suspicion claw at the back of your mind as you recall your visit to the Light College before Dum and wonder if such awe was not better explained by the over abundance of Hysh that such deployment will bring.

"what was your question?" you reply. putting aside the treatise on known deployment of the Orbs of Sorceries in the history of the colleges.

"That gestalt of spiders you are to let loose in your library"

Cython was lounging about in your dragon room while flipping the next page on the book he was reading, a simple theological work written on Hekarti written after Laurelorn had declared it's independence. One of the gifts you managed to part from House Tindomiel, a reasonable request considering her symbol might one day adore the veins of magic running across the Empire.

"You told me of the Manling gods, shared books from the Dawi, and hinted at the the pantheon of those Halfing folks. Even now you share a book on the elven pantheon from those water folks who stand isolated from their birthland, yet you have not spoken of the gods of those who now preoccupies so much of your time, have you not said they share a form of Sapience between them?"

you hum, "I don't think they worship any god, I am not sure they even have the concept of divinity that most species share, not in a way that is familiar to us."

"Your mortal species do not agree on what the divine are, between the Dawi, Elves and mans, and even less on how they are to be treated. How can we know if the We does not venerate their gods in a way that is merely to alien for us to recognize."

"There are still some similarity that remain, a defined Name, if not Names, a domain, rituals and places of worship, a dedicated priesthood. The We show none of that, they do not even recognize that when they witness the Shrines and rituals that take place in the Karak."

"The greenskin have no true priesthood, only nexus to their gods energies, the Orges worship a Maw in the ground, your classical gods came from the east, having no recognized place of worship in this side of the World's edge mountains, and there were plenty of gods of nomads civilization that recognized no singular place of prayer or even a portable shrine. Those characteristics you described are not universal."

You shake your head.

"Still, there always remain a form of worship, whatever implicit or explicit. a recognition of a singular or multiple entities. The closest the We have are such a thing is their own composite consciousness."

"Which is made from the past knowledge of all their members. A form of Ancestor Worship like the Dawi?"

"Perhaps" You ponder. " But can you really Venerate someone you view as part of who you are? not as a metaphor. Rather then an foundational part of your very being? The Dwarves have the benefit of separation of thought from their gods. Could you worship something that you perceive as your own mind in the past?"

The silence linger, Cython flip a few more page of his book with a strand of Hysh before he answer next.

"You spoke of the We's plan to separate a part of themselves into this Library-We, would they still consider themselves the same Entity? or would their new Sapience consider itself separate?"

You think back at the conversation that you had with the Karak-We, when they spoke of separating their hive into two. A bizarre concept to translate from a hivemind to a mortal.

"They should, But they might still considered themselves as being a continuation of the Karak-We, making any any action taken before the split as their own. Beside, considering the way they described their future interaction with this Library-We, I feel they are more likely to consider the other We as more of a possible equal then anything that might turn into worship. the same should be true in reverse."

"Then they will remain without a patron god."

"Perhaps they will mimic your kind in this."

Cython snort in amusement "There are worse species to imitate, I wonder if they will take to the same hunger for answers as you took, it would be an interesting partner to share my theories, mortal, yet enduring."

You mentally picture Cython and a We hunter wearing a librarian hat arguing about which of the latest cult is which god under the mask a few hundred years from now and giggle. There are worse company to share a possibly blasphemous gossip.

"Perhaps they might adopt a god from another race, the elven pantheon do have tendency to run around, and their proximity to to the humans and scholars might push them to adopt Verena, in whatever bizarre way they would exalt her."

"Cross species Gods are always an interesting case, and amusing. I can Imagine it will cause quite a stir in your so call Gathering." Cython say with a tilt of his head.

"The Grand Conclave, and I do believe we are quite a far way from having a Araneae Sapiens from taking a seat there, amusing as it would be."

The Fire flicker and your eyes are drawn toward to stack of books on the Ancestors Gods, the less said about them the better. The Karaz Ankor had it's fair share of surprises for this century. Regardless of how much the expression on some of the stuffy long beard would be a marvel to watch.

"Or given enough time they might spread enough to draw their own minor wander god looking for a territory of his own. Depending on how much the We psyche will be attractive to the divine."

You think back on your past conversation on what possible reason the gods would want worshippers and wonder how the faith of a Sapience Hivemind would compare to that of a mortal.

"Perhaps, that would be an interesting case study for you no?"

"True, this gathering of species you arranged does offer more interesting question then the scavengers that haunted those peaks before you." Cython speak with a light voice.

Another reason for him to stick around on friendly terms you think, cozying in your seat to finish the chapter you started a while ago.

Hopefully the blue's Celestial Hurricanum would have less of a purple prose.

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Mathilde left the meeting complaining about the Celestial various idiosyncrasies with the palpable aura of Ulgu surrounding her. Above and beyond with what she enter with.

Cython huffed and went back to his nap, content that that particular conversation will have her return with some answers and more questions.

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

The months pass, the Waystone Project process apace and you can finally step down from the Gyrocopter.

First civilian craft or not the Gyrocopter that had been built for you had yet to do the impossible and not have you finish a flight feeling like a horse kicked you in the head.

You wave to Adela as she Disembark and start the after flight checklist, cheering a merry tune as if she did not spend the last hours sitting next to the loudest noise nuisance in a few days distance.

Oh, the benefits of working in a gunnery workshop, or is it the disadvantages?

The walk to the Halfing farms could not have been shorter, and the evening you spent with Panoramia could not have been longer, but it was time to go back to your Penthouse and see if anything interesting had occurred while you were gone, and check on the latest news from the We tutors.

Or it would have been time had you not been stopped by the group of glassy eyed children who stop you for stories of the fabled elven city.

You sigh, soon.

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

It was a few minutes later when you managed to extract yourself by crafting an illusion of Champion Kadoh during one of his more memorable flex off with Johann while moving him in the opposite direction of your path home, taking with him the gaggle of admiring children.

Well, almost all of them.

The girl before you is young, very young, that in any other place other then Eight peak you would not have felt safe for her to travel, even in the company of other kids. One of those growing numbers that have been born after the the full reconquest of the entire Karak.

She is shy too, barely a mumbled word before she give up and just stare at you. You look back, wondering if she is waiting for something when she start to reach into her pocket and take out a surprisingly neatly folded scroll for someone her age.

She also doesn't linger long, gone before you could do more then grasp the scroll and ponder who did she remain you off. Eike? too young, some other girl or two you can't bring to mind right now.

You open the scroll expecting either a simply worded child's letter or a secret missive from your colleagues. And you draw a breath.

It was well done, for a child her age, the lines brisk and clear and the coloring more distinct then an average child early scribbles. No overt erasure mark or uneven lines, the characters in question was clear and anatomically accurate, and the background had been incorporated better then even most adults could do. She had talent, that you even briefly consider offering her tutoring lesson to get your own painter. a few good years of tutorship and she will surpass even the works you commission from Altdorf .

The child, the very same that handed you the scroll. danced along on the paper while being followed by a few of the We spiders, with Kvinn-Wyr peak in the distance.

Yet unlike most children drawings, the spider are not the scary monsters under the bed, they dance and spin around the girl as she laugh.

The style is juvenile, but you could almost imagine how it would look in a few years. you seen it before, somewhere and sometime.

She must have been one of the children in the crowd, one of those times you went to lead the We to the Library for the relocation.

You fold the scroll into your pocket and absent mindedly pet the cat that had stood by the side this whole time and go on home. letting the day slid out of your mind. Wolf is waiting.

The black cat's eye trail you all the way out of sight.

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The shrine was lit, it was always the last room you make sure is clean when you leave the Penthouse, you scratch Wolf while you wait for Adela to finish her preflight check and give you the all clear to go back to Laurelorn.

You said your goodbyes to Panoramia, make sure to drag Belegar to a proper cooling off night of drinking, told Thorek that you will pick him and made sure to update the teaching plans you left the teachers of the Library-We.

The candle you lit flicker a bit.

Hmm, The library-We.

You reach out to your pocket and pull out a scroll you have somehow forgotten about for your entire stay here. it is in the same pristine situation you received it.

The scroll is unfurled and you sit there in your shrine. hmm.

You flip your Coin in the air.

The Coin spins.

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It is a few hours when the candle that was lit finally breath it's last, after the sound of the Gyrocopter is long gone. The shrine is pristine. the air is clear and the sun is setting at last, a mirror for the painted setting sun on the drawing in front of the shrine.

On the painting of a Lovers' picnic for all the people of the world except one.

On the painting of a Family picnic to only one pair of human eyes, one pair of canine eyes, and all the cats of the world.

The Lovers laugh, the Twins rejoice.

And the Youngest of the family dance with her new friends.
 
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Some points I'd make in favor of the We and Locals:
This is a good and cool post, and it's inspired me to try something similar for my two faves:

Cython (AKA Bookwyrm):

Security:
You literally cannot get more secure than being personally guarded by an Emperor Dragon. This could save us a Library action later, as it's been noted in the text that some institutions/organizations may not be willing to let us copy their books unless we have the library staff in place to guarantee an extremely high level of security. It could also, uniquely, have knock-on security benefits for the Karak as a whole, since expanding Cython's "territory of personal interest" from just the isolated peak of a mountain to an actual inhabited area means it would now have a vested interest in the security of that area and under the right circumstances could be moved to personally defend it.

Partnership:
I'm going to push against what seems to be the tide here and say I see this as an absolute win. IIRC Boney has indicated that while this will mean they see the Library's books as being jointly theirs, they will also see their books as being part of the Library now. This would mean that we can expand our book holdings with the personal collection of a Hysh Emperor Dragon. This is both very cool and could be a good way to add some exceptionally rare books (because dragons pride themselves on having the best in their collection). Also, I fundamentally don't mind Cython having a say in what gets done with the Library - more dragon time is always better, and this would guarantee that we've got a shot at dragon time every single time we interact with our Library. And Boney has also confirmed that this is not going to somehow make Cython more likely to up and make off with the Library at some point than it otherwise would have been.

Prestige:
"Let me tell you about the time I came face to face with an Emperor Dragon... and got directions on where to find a book from it" is absolutely the kind of story that you tell your grandkids. It's just very cool and, I think, guaranteed to raise our profile more than any other option would or could. This might help with making us more interesting partners for a book exchange with other institutions/organizations, and also is a classic Mathilde Flex to casually drop into conversations.

Orphans:

Paying it forward:
I just really like this from a narrative perspective. Mathilde was rejected/abandoned by her family, and then a stranger came into her life and gave her a purpose and hope. Her then deciding to do the same on an institutional basis just has absolutely impeccable vibes IMO.

Institutionalized opportunity:
Kinda related to the above, but part of the point of the Library has always been about what kind of legacy Mathilde will (hopefully quite eventually) leave behind. A place that gives an opportunity to those who would likely otherwise have none, from here until eternity (or however long it takes a well-secured Dwarfhold to fall)? That's a great legacy in and of itself. In this setting, you typically need to pay to apprentice to someone and actually learn a trade, and it would be your parents who would pay. Similarly to be a farmer you'd typically need to inherit land, again obviously from family. So no family = no likelihood of any prospects in life outside of unskilled labor on other people's property.

A library, a home:
It's noted in the text that the Orphans option will produce librarians who are fanatically loyal to Mathilde - y'know, for fundamentally altering the entire trajectory of their lives for the better. I'm not too fussed about the loyalty of our librarians to us honestly, but I do quite like the idea of having librarians who view the Library itself as their home - possibly the first real home in their lives. That has wonderful found family vibes and I am all about that shit.

Early experience with kids:
The thread seems pretty keen on taking Eike as an apprentice once she's ready, but Mathilde doesn't really have any prior track record of handling kids/teenagers. It might be a good idea for her to get her feet wet with that concept without the added pressure of being responsible for making sure they don't spontaneously explode into daemons.
 
The idea is making texts cheaper and more available on a wide and mass-produced scale, which in turn makes the written word a more powerful and flexible tool for spreading ideas, which encourages people to become literate so they can get in on it. I really don't see how hiring locals as librarians is really going to help with this. Sure, it'll make people feel more connected to KAU, but the spread of literacy requires lots of people getting free access to written material all over the place. Giving everyone a library card is nice, but it simply isn't enough. To really encourage higher literacy rates through books, we'd have to give a bunch of copies of books to everyone or something, and that's just way too expensive in a pre-movable-printing-press world.

My argument was for The We. I'm, like, on the same page with you. I think.
 
If you take this assumption as default (although I will point out that the purpose of a library varies greatly and isn't always to promote these things) then surely choosing the locals will simply speed it up, and the end result will still happen anyway, albeit over a longer period of time?

Can you guarantee that if the We become the librarians, that they will focus on policies that seek integration with the local community of K8P? Because from where I'm standing, there isn't one that they'll eventually provide the same benefit that locals will provide as explicitly called out in the text of the update.
 
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