Voted best in category in the Users' Choice awards.
I'm not so sure if he said that himself or if you're remembering Asarnil's often quoted line:

He was specifically speaking of Khaine's worship. Asarnil, at least, believes that humans worship a great many of the Elven gods in other guises.
There's definitely a WoB about human worship of Elven gods in general going poorly.
 
"I've never fully understood how Ulthuan reveres Khaine," you admit carefully. "When his worship reaches our shores, it always ends poorly."

Gods dammit, I've been misremembering this line all this time. I thought it was about elven worship in general, not specifically Khaine. That undermines my entire argument that the Hekarti shrines are dangerous for humans because there's no evidence that worshipping elven gods is dangerous—it's just humans becoming obsessed with Khaine and murder, rather than meditating on His place in the world like an elf is trained to do.
 
There's definitely a WoB about human worship of Elven gods in general going poorly.
Worship of elven gods as elven gods. Worshipping elven gods when they're wearing a fake moustache works fine going by Manaan and whoever the accepted god Hekarti's supposed to be. If Katya is Atharti, that's another example of it going ok so long as you worship the gods human-style.
 
Gods dammit, I've been misremembering this line all this time. I thought it was about elven worship in general, not specifically Khaine. That undermines my entire argument that the Hekarti shrines are dangerous for humans because there's no evidence that worshipping elven gods is dangerous—it's just humans becoming obsessed with Khaine and murder, rather than meditating on His place in the world like an elf is trained to do.
You might have been thinking of this WoB:

Elves worship all of their Gods as different aspects of themselves, with more focus on those that represent where they devote most of their attention but overall rather rounded. In the Old World, humans are a lot more all-in on one chosen God, with only situational deference shown to the others. This means that when humans pick up the worship of an Elven God without any changes made to the strictures or doctrines or texts to account for the difference in how they worship, things can get rather intense and unpleasant even when it's a 'good' God, and can get downright horrendous with the nastier ones. So it's standard practice to not have texts on Elven Gods available to the general public.
 
[X] [HOUSE] Yes
[X] Plan how many people can actually read elf anyways?
[X] Plan Discretion Is The Watchword
 
How is this an overreach? Tindomiel want permission to add either a dedication or a shrine to their goddess to any waystone they construct. If anything, it's an overreach to forbid them from doing this.
Yes, it is overreach to commit to everything that is outside of Mathilde's responsibility. In this case, we cannot promise anything outside borders of the Empire.
If Thorek wanted to include a shrine to Thungni on each waystone, would you forbid him?
I don't think we would be able to promise him shrines to Thungni at, for example, Laurelorn waystones. Not until we negotiate with Elven Council for this.
It's not like we're forcing people to build shrines to Hekarti—the builders just want to include a shrine when they make one. We're not going to march into Kislev and say "we're going to build a bunch of wayshrines and there's nothing you can do about it". They are going to ask us to create one, and a part of that deal would be the inclusion of a Hekarti shrine. And if they don't agree to that, they can't get one—at least, not one built by Tindomiel, at least, and they'd have to wait until we're free to hire someone else to build one. And no, before anyone says anything, that's not extortion. It's negotiation.
Maybe not an extortion, but not far from it. If someone wants Waystone, we are obliged to do it through Tindomiel. If someone wants their Waystone done without Elves... Well, too bad for them. They either accept the deal, or negotiate with Tindomiel to let this one exact Waystone built by someone else. And if Elves do not agree... Too bad, no Waystone for you.
If Tindomiel end up upsetting the status quo by building a shrine where it's not wanted, then they are the ones who are going to have to smother that fire.
Yeah, imagine sending an Ice Witch to Mathilde's project, only to hear later that the Waystone will be built either with the Elves or not at all. Kislev will totally blame Tindomiel for this, not the head of the Project.
And finally, "right of first refusal". How many can they build at once? 5? 10? 100? Sooner or later, they'll run out of resources, or have their priests stretched too thin, and then we have to find another group to build waystones for us. And what price will they charge for the privilege, I wonder?
Why building Waystones is ever going to be a problem? If we succeed, literally everyone will gladly give us resources to get a shiny stone that helps you deal with Chaos.

I agree. The dwarves must be the one to construct the Wind-based portions of the waystones. Probably get the Dark Lands dwarves to do it since they have the most experience manipulating the Winds of Magic.
As I said, I was oversimplifying. But the point still stands, we can't decide this for dwarfs, not without some kind of permission. There is a difference between dwarfs getting a trusted wizard to do Wind portion, or getting stuck with Tindomiel mage because someone else made a deal.
 
Last edited:
[X] [HOUSE] Yes
[X] [HEDGEWISE] Discreetly
[X] Plan how many people can actually read elf anyways?

[X] Plan: Local Security

We've got a lot of contributors working from old legends and educated guesses. A "foremost expert on wind-based magical theory" could shore up issues with that as we lay the foundations.
 
Last edited:
You might have been thinking of this WoB:
Mhm, welp that sound's bad. I would like to give the elves the benefit of the doubt that they'll try to adapt worship of Hekarti to human mass managable levels but they are super isolationists to the point those who could speak riekspiel are suddenly sweeped of the streets so that's like a nope from me even if they are well intentioned

Maybe if the heir proves convincing and worthy to us, maybe he tries to renegotiate with us and say's he researched understands the worry of humans worshipping elven god's as elve's do and will try to change how the priest manage such sites i'd consider allowing them to set up waystone shrines in the empire.

Even then he'd have to prove himself, and be super charasmatic like Belegar to get the chance from us at the very least.
 
I'm curious about the differences in how elven mages who follow Hoeth and Hekarti approach their craft, and who a mage is going to be praying to at any particular time. Is Hoeth more theoretical ("Please let me remember how the structure of this spell is supposed to go") and Hekarti more practical ("Please let me not miscast when doing this risky spell so that it's my enemies and not me that blows up")?

I'd like to ask Boney for more details, but we might need to get books on Hoeth first.
 
I'm curious about the differences in how elven mages who follow Hoeth and Hekarti approach their craft, and who a mage is going to be praying to at any particular time. Is Hoeth more theoretical ("Please let me remember how the structure of this spell is supposed to go") and Hekarti more practical ("Please let me not miscast when doing this risky spell so that it's my enemies and not me that blows up")?

I'd like to ask Boney for more details, but we might need to get books on Hoeth first.
can't hurt to ask @Boney and I am curious too
 
Are you drawing on anything in-particular for that?
WFRP 2e: Tome of Salvation, page 76:
Marieka is also a professor of philosophy at the University of Nuln, and is one of the few female members of the faculty there.
WFRP 2e: Forges of Nuln, page 23:
The most notable school of these lesser institutions is the College of Barristers. This unassuming building trains lawyers and is fast developing a name for itself in recent years. The reason for its unusual attention is that it was this school that produced one Rosalia Schultz. As Nuln's first female barrister, she is a living scandal, dabbling in the affairs of men. Still, despite the attitudes of the Nulners, Schultz managed to help many folks. After winning a few important civil cases, she felt she owed her success to the city and returned to the College to teach. Her return has been met with mixed reactions. On the one hand she's a skilled professor, but on the other, many families worry that she's corrupting the youth with her "licentious" behaviour. A few believe she must be in the service to the Ruinous Powers, there being no other explanation for her unexpected success.
 
Last edited:
Let me quote something else that enlightens the issue then;



edit:

So this is wrong essentially.
The fact that Tindomiel believes that god X of the Empire/Bretonnia/Kislev is secretly Hekarti in a silly hat, and therefore is happy to dedicate it to god X instead of Hekarti, does not mean either that:
  • The human worshippers of that god will agree with that belief
  • Their belief is actually true
Like, imagine that instead of Hekarti, this were Isha. Chances are that the Discreet option in the Empire would manifest as shrines to Rhya. Is that a bad thing that would piss people off? No. It's just a shrine to a locally acceptable and revered god. The fact that the elves who made it think Rhya is a guise of Isha (though Deathfang disagrees) is unlikely to come up and less likely to matter even if it does.
 
Last edited:
Yes, it is overreach to commit to everything that is outside of Mathilde's responsibility. In this case, we cannot promise anything outside borders of the Empire.

I don't even know how to respond to this one. It's not a question of authority. Hell, Mathilde currently does not have permission to build any waystones anywhere yet, regardless of their religious dedication. Mathilde is not forcing Kislev and Bretonnia to accept a foreign god, she's acknowledging that Tindomiel, as one of the primary craftspeople, have the right to decorate it as they wish. She's not making state level decisions on the behalf of a foreign nation.

Yeah, imagine sending an Ice Witch to Mathilde's project, only to hear later that the Waystone will be built either with the Elves or not at all. Kislev will totally blame Tindomiel for this, not the head of the Project.

The entire reason Boris sent two witches is to get the elves to build things, that's why they are here. To get secrets from the elves.

Why building Waystones is ever going to be a problem? If we succeed, literally everyone will gladly give us resources to get a shiny stone that helps you deal with Chaos.

Gold isn't the bottleneck here. Tindomiel do not have an infinite number of mages with an infinite number of AP. They can only build a certain number of waystones at once, and once they reach that cap we will have to seek expertise elsewhere.


Gods, this fearmongering about how Mathilde doesn't have the right to make this decision is giving me a headache. Listening to some of the arguments, Tindomiel is either too naive and incompetent to realise Mathilde can't enforce their demands, or they are malicious zealots trying to antagonise everyone on the continent.

Or maybe, just maybe, they are so keen for the waystone project to succeed that they are willing to work pro-bono for the entire research and development stage, and only take payment once it's time to actually start building the things—and their payment forces them to be the ones who do most of the work anyway, so why shouldn't they have the freedom to design it as they wish. The only downside is that Her worship may spread through human communities without being properly adapted to Her new followers, and that's not a problem if we limit them to the one place where they are already embedded in the political and religious landscape. Tindomiel don't want to upturn the boat, they want to solidify and stabilise their position, because that's what you do when you're already at the top, and they can't do that if everyone feels threatened by them.
 
So, might the fact that Hekarti is the goddess of dark magic backfire on us if we dedicate waystones to her? I mean isn't dark magic all about dhar?

Are the Tindomiel the baddies?
 
I wonder if it'll be considered a Great Deed if we actually succeed in getting this research project to the point where we can make new Waystones?
 
A Crane’s Tenure
A Crane's Tenure:

The classroom brimmed with a sort of energy today, Eike couldn't help but notice. It was anticipatory, sort of like a kettle on the stove, a sort of pressure budging against a barrier of "modesty" and "control". Eike had gotten better at this sort of thing, sensing the general atmosphere through her "Windsight" (which wasn't really sight), largely thanks to her continued efforts to train it and advice from Professor Engel, the teacher for "Meditations on the Winds of Magic". Eike was well aware of the cause of this tension.

"Practical Use of Magic" was a new class for everyone in this classroom. Linda, Esmeralda, Charlotte, Egil, herself and several others whom she didn't recognise. After years of painstaking training and studying of all the theoretical aspects of magic and endless warnings of the dangers of magic, it was exciting to finally start exploring the concept of using magic for more than making a night light or scaring someone with a loud sound.

There were also rumors of the teacher to consider. Word was, and she heard this from Linda (gossipmonger that she was, she was also fairly accurate), the person teaching them was a former Senior Battle Mage. The highest combat rank in the College that wasn't just "Lord Magister". Much speculation was had on why such an esteemed and prestigious veteran of many battles would be teaching a few apprentices in a classroom, and that was the sort of thing that got the gossip running at a fever pitch.

Their questions, both spoken and unspoken, were answered as soon as the door burst open, revealing their teacher.

The class went deadly quiet as the robed figure hobbled to the board, the door closing soundlessly behind her with nary a hand motion to signify a "Move" cantrip. The clicks of the figure's staff and the dull thumps of her right foot, clad in a cast and dragging across the floor, were the only noises she produced.

"The name's Crane. You can call me miss, professor, sir, lady, Magister or just Crane, I don't care. I'm here to teach you one thing and one thing only." Crane's voice was raspy, Eike noted.

The professor's right hand flew to motion as she reached the board, grabbing a piece of chalk and writing with a cursive script.

Crane turned to the class, and read aloud what she wrote on the board.

"How to not die."

Eike was sure she saw the ever so subtle hint of shakiness to her hand as she wrote on the board. That thought fled from her mind as the teacher's eyes locked onto hers. She was sure she was looking specifically at her, her startlingly intimidating grey eyes boring into hers.

"Understood?"

The class wide response was a simple nod of the head.

"Okay then. Let us proceed with the lesson."

—----
Crane released a puff of smoke from her lips as she relaxed in the sinfully comfortable chair she commissioned for her office. There were no regrets in Crane's mind over spending so much to furnish her personal space so thoroughly. It was rare for a person like her to receive so many luxuries, but such was the reward gained from dutiful service she supposed.

She took another draw on her pipe and contemplated her day as the herbs worked their way through her system, relieving the many aches and pains she had agitated through the day. Today was her first day teaching a bunch of snotty nosed brats in a classroom, and she couldn't rightly say that she enjoyed it. It required far less moving around than her previous job though, and the benefits were alright enough, so it had to suffice for the moment. She was far too young to retire in her honest opinion.

Ah, how she had fallen. She was considered one of the most gifted battle mages in the Grey College, perhaps even the Empire! Master Melkoth was proud of her and what she'd done, and she was sure she'd be able to become a Lady Magister eventually.

She got cocky. She thought she had it all figured out, but she should have known that when you're playing with fire, rolling the dice and praying to Ranald, sometimes Ranald just fucks you over and you roll snake eyes.

One miscast was all it took. She couldn't ground it fast enough so the Ulgu thought the best route would be through her own body. Tore through her quick as a Penumbral Pendulum through a column of Orcs. Couldn't do a thing about it. Her body was so full of Ulgu residue that no Magic could be cast on her that didn't result in Dhar, and by the time it was over, no magic in the world could bring things back to how they used to be.

Took her two years to recover from that, and even now she was suffering the aftereffects. Scars coated her whole body from arms down to the legs. Especially her legs. Right leg was a mess of shredded meat held together by a cast and the left was as stiff as a board, covered with a ceramic device with winches and cranks that responded to her magic. She couldn't bend or flex her left leg, so the Gold College managed to conjure something that could do that for her with a thought. Nice of them.

Unfortunately, you can't exactly send someone like her back to the battlefield, so now she was stuck here smoking herbs and drinking herbal remedies and teas hoping to ease the pain. It didn't help when she was walking around feeling like broken glass was wedged under her skin poking at her everywhere, but it dulled the feelings somewhat.

Crane's musings were interrupted by a mental Alarm, an enchantment she'd rigged up to the door to detect any visitors about to knock. The instant the first knock became audible, she opened the door with her mind, a little trick she learned years ago. Chantless, motionless Move. Amazing trick for someone like her.

"Come in, take a seat." Crane didn't bother to take a look or stand up straight in her chair, her left leg still lying relaxed on a cushion close to her chair.

She was still smoking, and the scent of smoke couldn't exactly be the most welcoming environment, but come in the visitor did, even if she coughed a little before taking a seat.

It was then that Crane turned her head to take her first look at her visitor.

It was one of the young Apprentices in her lesson earlier today. Eike Hochschild, if her memory served her right. About 13, black hair tightly bound into a braid, wearing standard apprentice robes only slightly modified to present her desired look. What that desired look was, Crane had no idea. The girl looked stiff and nervous, but she was clearly presenting a respectful front, waiting for Crane to invite her to speak.

Crane's response was to simply raise her eyebrow, asking a question without speaking. Eike was clearly caught off guard by that, but she quickly gathered her wits.

"Um, I've come to ask you a few questions about today's lesson. I know it's early, but I love to get ahead of the material as much as I can. And you did say that your door's open from 4-6 in the afternoon!" Eike spoke so quickly that it seemed as if she was speeding through a pre-prepared response, as if she was attempting to justify her presence.

"I did say that." Smoke escaped Crane's lips as she spoke neutrally, jogging her memory for all she knew of the young lady in front of her.

Eike Hochschild, daughter of Franz Hochschild, but more importantly the granddaughter of Wilhelmina Hochschild, the effective head of the Eastern Imperial Company. One of the most notorious of the rising stars of the southern Empire, its expansion into near domination of all of Stirland's economic affairs and its expansion further across the Empire would be a cause of concern for the Bursar were it not for the fact that the EIC's biggest shareholder was a Grey. And not just any Grey, but Lady Magister Mathilde Weber, the Dammerlichtreiter.

Almost everyone in the Grey College knew who Mathilde was. It would be hard not to note the most visible Grey Magister, and now Lady Magister, in the College's history. One would think it counterintuitive, but Crane personally considered it a triumph that she managed to garner so much attention. All the better for those who did want to go discreet. It was hard not to have an appreciation for her achievements after serving in Sylvania. It was where she met her near fatal accident after all.

Crane also knew that Eike was brought to the Colleges by Mathilde herself. Anyone who could put two and two together knew that for all intents and purposes, this girl was heading straight to tutelage by a Lady Magister straight out of College. One would say that's lucky, but Crane knew firsthand how hard it could be trying to live up to your mentor.

Still, none of that meant that she would be any sort of soft with the kid. She had an image to maintain.

"Ah, an early bird eh? Well I suppose I can spare some time for someone who shows initiative. What's got you all confused?" Was Crane's response after only a brief pause. It was basic Grey training for your brain to run a marathon mid-conversation without a pause, but she was kind of rusty on that part.

—--
"Um, I have a question, and it's not about the material exactly." Eike worked up the courage to ask this after some time going over the details of the lesson.

"Hm? Go ahead. So long as it's not stupid. If somebody told you there are no stupid questions then they're out of their mind. There are absolutely stupid questions." That didn't help at all.

"W-well… When you started the class, I felt… there was something off."

Eike could detect the professor's attention being piqued. It seems like the longer she stayed and the more she smoked, Ms.Crane was getting more and more relaxed. Eike wasn't sure what was in that pipe, but she wasn't going to ask.

"When you were glaring at the class… I felt like you were looking directly at me. B-but I know you couldn't have! Because when I asked the other girls, they said you were looking right at them! But that can't be possible. I looked at the Grey College Spellbook, and you can't cast Illusion on that many people so casually! W-Can you tell me what you used?" Eike tried her best not to make herself look small as Crane's interested look became more and more intense.

"Huh. Never figured I would be figured out on day one. I guess I was being too heavy handed there." Crane said. "What you saw was an Illusion, and it wasn't an illusion. Illusion is a high level spell because it's extremely powerful. It affects sight, smell, and hearing and it does so by directly interfacing with a person's mind. Cloak Activity is less intensive. It creates a singular false image of the caster to present to everyone. What I did there was what I like to call a mirrored illusion."

"Mirrored illusion?" Eike asked.

"Mirrored Illusion, get it right kid. I make a singular image, then I make it so that anyone who looks at the image thinks it's facing them. It's a bit more complex than that, but I'd be willing to teach you the theory, since you figured it out." Crane offered.

"R-really?" Eike questioned in shock.

"Don't see why not. You're not gonna be messing around with higher level magic if you know what's good for you, and it'll be a while yet until you learn stuff like Cloaked Activity and Illusion, but if you're smart enough to find out something's off then you deserve a reward for it." Crane almost smiled at the end there, but she quickly assumed a neutral expression.

Eike wasn't so sure about her new teacher at the start of the lesson, but she thought she could grow to like her quite a bit.

AN: I'm not so sure about this. I've considered how to go about it for a while, and I decided to just go for it. I wanted a little glimpse at Eike's school life, but primarily pivoted it to focus on the troubles of a disabled war veteran Battle Mage turned teacher because that interested me. I struggled to present her as "rough on the outside, soft on the inside" I feel, because I struggled to make her as scary and intimidating as I wanted to.
 
So, might the fact that Hekarti is the goddess of dark magic backfire on us if we dedicate waystones to her? I mean isn't dark magic all about dhar?

Are the Tindomiel the baddies?
Hekarti is a goddess of magic in general. Just like Ranald has four different faces, Hekarti is Goddess of Conjuration... and because the Druchii use Dark Magic, to them she's a goddess of that too.

Boney has said:
Hekarti is like the Winds, if you handle her well she might give you everything you want, if you don't, or if she's just in a bad mood, she'll ruin you. The adorations written in her honour owes more to fear than love, but there's still love. In good times, her worshipers are Freddy Mercury singing Don't Stop Me Now. In bad, it's more Master of Puppets. In general, Ain't No Rest For The Wicked. But the common theme is that they sing, and they sing for her. Whether it's praise or blame, joy or despair, they all sing for her.

Mathilde has sung. Cython has sung. The common link between Malekith and Ariel, Nagash and Volans, Mazdamundi and Noctilus - they all know her song.
 
So, might the fact that Hekarti is the goddess of dark magic backfire on us if we dedicate waystones to her? I mean isn't dark magic all about dhar?

Are the Tindomiel the baddies?
No, maybe and no
The Druuchi worship Hekarti as the Goddess of Dark Magic, but the Druuchi do a lot of things and we aren't dealing with them right now
Hekarti is the Goddess of Conjurations (i.e. spellcasting), the Mistress of Magic
And spellcasting can be dangerous and mercurial, but it's not evil
Not unless you wanna subscribe to the hardline Sigmarite line of thought anyway

Hekarti is best known as the Goddess of Dark Magic, but she is the Hydra Queen and has a head for each Wind. She can be considered a more 'pure' Goddess of Magic than Hoeth, who is the God of Knowledge in general and therefore only the God of Magic by default.

Hekarti isn't evil, or at least no more evil than Mathlann.
I'm gonna try to field the question despite imbibing the spirit of the season, if my answer doesn't satisfy, ask again and my future self will try again. Hekarti is like the Winds, if you handle her well she might give you everything you want, if you don't, or if she's just in a bad mood, she'll ruin you. The adorations written in her honour owes more to fear than love, but there's still love. In good times, her worshipers are Freddy Mercury singing Don't Stop Me Now. In bad, it's more Master of Puppets. In general, Ain't No Rest For The Wicked. But the common theme is that they sing, and they sing for her. Whether it's praise or blame, joy or despair, they all sing for her.

Mathilde has sung. Cython has sung. The common link between Malekith and Ariel, Nagash and Volans, Mazdamundi and Noctilus - they all know her song.

Merry whichever holidays you may or may not celebrate, thread.
No. Hekarti is the Goddess of Conjurations, not of the Winds themselves.
Conjurations is just a fancy name for casting spells.
 
Last edited:
Back
Top