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I don't really know what Tindomiel brings to the project, but I really really don't want shrines on my waystones. The good news is that this will only be relevant if we wildly succeed in our project's most optimistic goals.

As for the Hedgewise, we do have unofficial permission from our Order to bring them on, under the hypothetical cover of examining them for potential admittance into the Colleges. I'd like to do this openly if we can.
 
Generally I'm greedy person and would want the elves on board from the start I also agree that their going for the long game of getting a foot in wherever we allow them too to spread word of their goddess. I doubt they will want anything else we could give... Now or later.
 
I'm tempted to go "discreet" with Tindomiel, just to find out which mask Hekarti wears in the empire.
My guess is the disguise would vary. This isn't "what god is Hekarti", it's "who's shrines can we pretend these are". Which means it won't be the same goddess throughout the Old World. In Bretonnia, it'd most likely be the Lady (although apparently they do have holy places dedicated to other gods), while the Emorie would vary depending on the loctaion and I think Kislev would fvour the Widow. The Southern Realms would probably favour Myrmidia.
 
I honestly don't trust anything but secular. There is no way they wouldn't profit off of the waystones being dedicated to their godess, and I dont want our new network parts to be undermined from the start.

Especially since she also backs the dark elves, don't want to give those fuckers a back door entrance.

Actually, why is secular even an option? I thought the entire first refusal thing was based on the idea that they wanted to spread Her so how would building big non divine rock pillars help.
 
Wouldn't putting symbols for the eight colleges of magic be the same as putting symbols for hekarti on the waystones?

No. Hekarti is the Goddess of Conjurations, not of the Winds themselves.

Actually, why is secular even an option? I thought the entire first refusal thing was based on the idea that they wanted to spread Her so how would building big non divine rock pillars help.

Presumably being that involved in that many Waystones going up over that wide an area would still give them a lot of influence, even if they aren't allowed to brand them.
 
My pie in the sky key priority is to get to the point of creating waystones at all. I would go Old world, dedication, then enchanter and theorist.

Even dedication is something only well-versed worshippers of Hekarti would notice.

We don't even have to tell the polities that are getting them that they are dedicated to Hekarti.

I say that dedication is still a good option, and house Tindomiel is very likely to be crucial.

If the world is dying of thirst, then we make the compromises necessary to maximize the chance of learning how to get more wells/sources of water.
 
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Here's something that I want us to consider: House Tindomiel expects the project to end in us creating new Waystones. House Tindomiel demands a price that only comes into effect if the project achieves the best possible results we could hope for, which means two things: House Tindomiel is incredibly optimistic about the project, and House Tindomiel will be very dedicated to the success of the project.
Well, you heard the man: anything other than erecting new Waystones is meagre scraps. They are already assuming, based on the nothing we have to show so far, that this project will be a massive success, and they are fine not getting paid at all if it isn't. This doesn't seem like the sort of thing that having a track record could help us with.
... Uh, I think that that can be interpreted differently.

Namely, it can also be interpreted as "We won't do any work until and unless it's clear that you actually are hugely successful at this; and that you have unlocked how to make Waystones; at which point, we will be paid by... getting to make those Waystones, and making them as shrines to our Goddess. Until then, we won't have to actually do anything, and can just wait."

i.e. It's not them being so certain that we'll succeed; it's them wanting to do as little as possible, get fed knowledge of Waystone-creating (which they will then happily assume the right to make more of), and make all the shrines we want.

I mean. That's... also a valid way of interpreting their offer, you know?


I'm also more thoughtful on that "Well, okay, re-negotiate in a few years once we have some successes then" point from Alliterate because they're Elves -- which mean they work on longer timespans, while knowing and being aware that humans don't. Which might mean that they might expect non-immediate deals... erm, to rephrase a bit; they might be testing to see if we go for the first deal they offer us, thinking "Hey, humans want to do things fast, right? Maybe if we play on their short lifespans and their desire to hurry, we can get a big deal from them?"


For instance, what are you going to do if you offer House Tindomiel the right of first refusal on Waystone Creation and maintenance, but the Dwarfs or the Colleges of Magic or the Hedgewise want to be the ones in charge of their waystones, on their territories?

And if you're bargaining to get House Tindomiel's expertise in political matters, then... then you aren't actually getting them for their ability or necessity for creating Waystones; they're not necessary for Waystones but for political work. Which means they're getting Waystones in exchange for political work. Which, well, maybe you think that's worth it, but. What about the people that do wind up being the ones to figure out, or share, the Waystones thing?
 
Goddess of Seduction
Who is this? Slaanesh? Or is this implying some other God in the empire that is Hekarti by another name?

an older-looking Elf with a lined face sitting cross-legged on a bed of pillows
Is this meant to be cartoonish? I pictured those fat white-covered pillows, are elf beds those royal flat purple square pillows? Looks silly in my head either way. I'm guessing this has canon art though? This seems random in regards to worldbuilding, what was this inspired by?

To the people who also looked this up on google, I can't believe this wasn't a typo for Blood Fang.

TN: Fane means shrine/temple

Between that and the relatively unbothered reception you received when you arrived, you suspect you might have answered half the mystery that Ranald presented you with when you were gifted the fifth face of your Coin.
Wonder if Hekarti would be proactive in giving Mathilde more hints, still not sure about The Lady, and she's the leading candidate currently. The coin did specify the Goddess also trusting Mathilde, and I don't think she had any presence in the update.

Wonder if this means the scene isn't over and we're up for a divine visit afterwards.
And I've heard of you, and the Kupfers and Krammovitches have vouched for you. If there is a chance that you can find success, then we are bound by ancient oaths to assist you in this."

As you begin to talk to Aksel of the specifics, you think to yourself that if the Nordland Hedgewise were always this trusting, they likely would have been wiped out some time in the past two thousand years.
Sorry for asking a pedantic question, but is Mathilde not reacting to Kupfer a sign of her suspecting IC even when there were no thread suspicion afaik, or was it just cut for lack of relevance?


Again, as someone lacking canon knowledge can someone re-cap for me House Tindomiel?

I recall in the vote not including them before laying the foundations would be a snub and that elves are very political. I thought that they would appreciate the opportunity and jump on it, but it looks like they don't really value it at all.

From sentiment of the thread, what they're offering could be described unreasonable. Is this deliberate? Is this a subtle way of saying, "You can start the project now, the situation can now be spinned that you snubbed us and deemed our resources insufficient, it was that you couldn't afford our price."

Or is this something about Elven hubris? That they overvalue their contribution compared to what they're asking?

The tone doesn't really sound like they believe in the vision of the project much, do they think it's possible? Sure. Do they think it practical to believe in it? No.

Also, what are they offering again? Something about the politics at Laurelorn and I forgot what contributions to the Project specifically.
 
[ ] [SCOPE] Northern Provinces (+1)
Nordland, Middenland, Ostland, and the Wasteland.
Y'all, this is an incredibly expensive price. They want the right of first refusal over some of the lands closest to the North? Where Waystones are more needed than nearly anywhere else? I don't care if this is labeled '+1'; this alone is a red flag. And the levels beyond that is absurd. Why should House Tindomiel be given such political leverage over the entirety of The Empire, when Waystones are so essential to its very existence? Why should The Empire, Bretonnia, and Kislev, nay, the entirety of The Old World have so many of their Waystones built by this one cult? What the heck do they think they're entitled to?

I don't care what secrets they think they have up their sleeves. We have both a plethora of participants and some heavy hitters in Runelord Thorek and Grey Lord Hatalath. None of whom asked for a price nearly comparable to this. I say we give them their Shrines in Laurelorn for the Priest or the Heir, or failing that, refuse them entirely. We mainly wanted their assistance for Laurelorn-level politics. Giving them political leverage this wide-ranging is completely beyond that.

E: Also, The Old World includes the Karaz Ankor. I imagine this kind of agreement won't go over well with our Dwarfen allies, and could put political pressure on Thorek if not upset him directly.
 
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Y'all, this is an incredibly expensive price. They want the right of first refusal over some of the lands closest to the North? Where Waystones are more needed than nearly anywhere else? I don't care if this is labeled '+1'; this alone is a red flag. And the levels beyond that is absurd. Why should House Tindomiel be given such political leverage over the entirety of The Empire, when Waystones are so essential to its very existence? Why should The Empire, Bretonnia, and Kislev, nay, the entirety of The Old World have so many of their Waystones built by this one cult? What the heck do they think they're entitled to?
I think you're misunderstanding what "first refusal" means, here.

If they can't provide the craftelves to build waystones in those regions, we can use whoever we can find. The waystones would be getting built anyway. The question is, can House Tindomiel put their mark on them, or not?
 
My reading is that Tindomiel don't currently see much chance of success for the project, and almost see it as below them so are driving a hard bargain to ensure it'll be worth their while on the off chance it does succeed, while keeping their "We always knew you lot were useless at this stuff" defence in reserve if it fails.

I'm not interested in conceding so much control for anything other than the local waystones and I would be concerned about the political implications within Laurelorn of doing so. Giving them first refusal for a wide area is basically writing them a blank cheque and expecting them not to take the greatest possible amount from that - to the detriment of the other contributors - seems like a bad idea.
 
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Who is this? Slaanesh? Or is this implying some other God in the empire that is Hekarti by another name?

Atharti.

Is this meant to be cartoonish? I pictured those fat white-covered pillows, are elf beds those royal flat purple square pillows? Looks silly in my head either way. I'm guessing this has canon art though? This seems random in regards to worldbuilding, what was this inspired by?

Half palanquin, half copyright infringement on the Slann.

Sorry for asking a pedantic question, but is Mathilde not reacting to Kupfer a sign of her suspecting IC even when there were no thread suspicion afaik, or was it just cut for lack of relevance?

If Mathilde stopped the prose whenever something comes up that she's curious about and would like to know more of, this update would have been three times as long.
 
The entrance hall to House Tindomiel is shrouded in shadows, its only source of light being the burning eyes of the enormous statue that dominates the hall. In Her six arms is the traditional accoutrement of the Goddess of Conjurations - heart, scorpion, arrow, staff, dagger, and phial. At Her feet is a golden bowl filled with coins in what you presume to be tribute to the Hydra Queen. And though Her six arms and burning eyes do draw attention, Her proudly unclothed state makes it difficult to entirely miss that She has a form that is twin to that of the Goddess of Seduction.

To most eyes the hall would be filled with darkness interspersed with flickering, bewildering shadows, but between your Magesight and your attunement to Ulgu a room so thick with shadows and heavy with magic is as clear as if it was open to the midday sun. This makes it easy to notice that in contrast to the crowds of House Miriel and the attendants to receive them, the only response to your arrival is a ripple of energies as one of the many spirits lurking in the murk of the room disappears deeper into the building. A watcher, you surmise, and you consider the statue of Hekarti as you wait.

Her traditional armaments are rather overdone in a lot of the literature - a phial of orphan's tears? really? - but the books on Her you had copied from the Library of Mournings provide another explanation for them, saying that they are a set of basic shapes that got elaborated on over time. The infamous phial began as as the rune of Azyr turned upright, the serrated dagger the rune of Ulgu given a few extra points, the scorpion's tail comes from the flourish at the end of the rune of Shyish, and so on. This leaves two Winds unrepresented, and the statue before you uses one of the two usual solutions for this: burning eyes for Aqshy and an obvious lack of Chamon that a supplicant is invited to correct with the contents of their purse. The other common fix for statues has a brazier at Her feet and a crown upon her brow. You're not entirely sure you're convinced by this, but it's better than nothing.
So we have: Azyr - Phial, Ulgu - Dagger, Shyish - Scorpion tail, Aqshy - Eyes or Brazier, Chamon - Coins or Crown. But how do the Heart and the Staff look like the symbols of Ghyran and Hysh?

Anyway, House Tindomiel definitely has a very impressive entrance.

"If we are to contribute, it will be on our terms. Should this endeavour succeed in the creation of new Waystones, it will be House Tindomiel that erects them, to a design of our choosing."

"What sort of design?"

"One that honours our patroness."
I don't like this at all.

For one I didn't expect them to be so religiously focused. I thought that while they dominate Hekarti worship (together with another House), but Hekarti worship doesn't dominate them. And that they would have at least some interests to haggle with that are not religious in nature.

Don't get me wrong, I don't think that Hekarti is inherently bad. But we are still talking about intimately and visibly binding the Cytharai goddess of magic into the massive magical nexus that is the Waystone Network. This isn't just symbolic. Such things have repercussions.

Then there's the way that such an offer might very well permanently alienate other Cults we could want to recruit, like Hoeth or Taal. And it would also alienate any of the more fanatic folk living in the lands we cover with this deal.

Additionally, this insistence makes me feel as if Hekarti/Hekartians were not really involved in the erection of the existing Waystone Network. Which both means that what they want might have unprecedented results and that their subject specific expertise might be limited, or at least theoretical and based on attempts of latter reverse engineering (which clearly was unsuccessful to some extent).

I regret that we didn't try and recruit House Tindomiel simultaneously as a Hoeth House. Yes, they would probably have asked for more due to losing the "only House there at the beginning" status and probably having to work alongside what might well be outright rivals, but at least there would have been a theological balance established from the start. My guess is that in some subtle ways the Waystones are already shrines to Hoeth. He is credited with teaching the Elves how to make them after all.

Now I wonder if the other "obviously worse" Hekarti House that Mathilde didn't even consider might have had a deal that's more palatable to me, simply because their Councillor Head of House had other priorities than the devout Hekartinist that Isthien apparently turned out to be.

Right now I am not even sure whether I'd vote yes or no. Voting no feels like shutting down an opportunity without concrete evidence of its necessity, but the cost here definitely seems high.

As you begin to talk to Aksel of the specifics, you think to yourself that if the Nordland Hedgewise were always this trusting, they likely would have been wiped out some time in the past two thousand years. Between that and the relatively unbothered reception you received when you arrived, you suspect you might have answered half the mystery that Ranald presented you with when you were gifted the fifth face of your Coin.
This comes as a surprise. Not that the Father worked, but that you chose to spell out that it did black on white. But after the initial surprise I have to say that I do get why you chose to do so. No reason to be bombarded with questions which you'd have ended up answering in the same way, lest those who find it obvious get into a fight with those who don't.
 
I think you're misunderstanding what "first refusal" means, here.

If they can't provide the craftelves to build waystones in those regions, we can use whoever we can find. The waystones would be getting built anyway. The question is, can House Tindomiel put their mark on them, or not?
I wouldn't underestimate them. If they can provide said crafter to an area, then they're going to be the ones to build the Waystones there. Which could end up with them being the ones with all the experience and expertise in building Waystones since nearly all of them will be built by House Tindomiel, meaning nearly no one else is able to gain much experience themselves. It's not a hard monopoly but it could end up as a de-facto one.

Plus, as I kinda-slowly edited above, I con't imagine the Karaz Ankor being happy with this arrangement at all if we choose The Old World.
 
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Wonder if Hekarti would be proactive in giving Mathilde more hints, still not sure about The Lady, and she's the leading candidate currently. The coin did specify the Goddess also trusting Mathilde, and I don't think she had any presence in the update.
Pssst: Hekarti is the Goddess of Conjurations, worshipped by House Tindomiel.

The Daughter worshipped by these Hedgewise is Halétha.

___________________________________________________________

Anyway, I'm rather skeptical of the claims that House Tindomiel is intending to just freeload off of the Project until we get Waystone creation - the fact that they're willing to dedicate the time of important people, including potentially the head of the house, I think indicates otherwise.

I'm definitely also cautious of the political reach House Tindomiel is asking us to hand them, though.

Momentarily putting aside the question of how dedicated they can be to Hekarti, the biggest question I'm musing about right now is how much the right of first refusal would impact politics in various regions in of itself.
 
So we have: Azyr - Phial, Ulgu - Dagger, Shyish - Scorpion tail, Aqshy - Eyes or Brazier, Chamon - Coins or Crown. But how do the Heart and the Staff look like the symbols of Ghyran and Hysh?

The circles of the Ghyran rune are ripples from the beating heart, and the Hysh wheel-on-a-stick becomes coiled serpent on a staff.

This comes as a surprise. Not that the Father worked, but that you chose to spell out that it did black on white. But after the initial surprise I have to say that I do get why you chose to do so. No reason to be bombarded with questions which you'd have ended up answering in the same way, lest those who find it obvious get into a fight with those who don't.

And because otherwise it would be extremely easy to miss by someone that just reads the updates and might have skimmed over the voting results.
 
I wouldn't underestimate them. If they can provide said crafter to an area, then they're going to be the ones to build the Waystones there. Which could end up with them being the ones with all the experience and expertise in building Waystones since nearly all of them will be built by them, meaning nearly no one else is able to gain much experience themselves. It's not a hard monopoly but it could end up as a de-facto one.

Plus, as I kinda-slowly edited above, I con't imagine the Karaz Ankor being happy with this arrangement at all if we choose The Old World.
The only options on the table for me are the +1 and +2 options. Karaz ankor, Kislev and Brettonnia are not ours to negotiate with.

And the way to go about restricting the agreement is by expecting results quickly. If you gave them a century to do it, they could manage with the craftsmen they have.

But ask for results within the decade (human lifespans are much shorter, we want results quickly) and they'll be hard pressed to deliver without having to prioritize the waystones in the Empire's territory over those Laurelorn to meet their contract.
They could do just that of course, but it looks bad.
 
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