- Location
- Finland
Almost certainly nothing that could not be discredited by Grand Theogonist just saying it is fake.
Any undisputable relics or Sigmar have, if they ever existed, have almost certainly been destroyed or stolen by Cult of Sigmar.
Warhammer Fantasy: Divided Loyalties - an Advisor's Quest
- Thread starter Boney
- Start date
- Fantasy Users' Choice!
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- Tags
- warhammer warhammer fantasy fantasy be gay do crimes (gay) female protagonist pansexual protagonist ck2 quest divided loyalties mountain vietnam ranald is real this is a dwarf quest (dwarfs) this is maybe an elf quest this is not a vampire quest this is not an empire quest try it and find out open voting
Voted best in category in the Users' Choice awards.
Any undisputable relics or Sigmar have, if they ever existed, have almost certainly been destroyed or stolen by Cult of Sigmar.
Burned_Cookie
Very tired girl.
- Location
- Plato´s cave.
- Pronouns
- She/Her/It/Its
If it does exist, the buckle heads probably set it on super fire and burned the ashes. We'd probably need a fuck ton of work to unearth evidence.
Course, if we did, it would solve everything in one fell swoop because no one wants to say that Sigmar was wrong.
I wonder if we have any proof? There's got to be a record of Sigmar doing that in a dwarven vault somewhere—if we can fish it out, we can wave it in front of the Grand Theogonist's face and then he can't obstruct us (he probably wouldn't help us, mind, but getting him to back down would be a good starting point).
- Location
- France
I'm also not sure the Hedgewise would want to be legalized, depending on the terms offered. Right now, they endure in remote places where enforcement mostly doesn't come, at the cost of occasionally facing repression. Being legalized as a College of Magic risks severely damaging their freedom, especially if they get terms and conditions closer to the Grey Order than to the Gold Order (which seems possible, as they're starting from a position of being distrusted + Hedge Magic has stealth/mind-control aspects to it too, right?).
Sure Mathilde is totally fine serving the Empire all her life, taking dangerous risks, and giving them a tithe of what wealth she could amass despite the mandatory Vow of Poverty. But remember, that isn't normal! It's the result of Mathilde's personality + years of indoctrination the Grey Order does to applicants it usually gets to mold from childhood (plus the fact that she's a quest protagonist).
Sure Mathilde is totally fine serving the Empire all her life, taking dangerous risks, and giving them a tithe of what wealth she could amass despite the mandatory Vow of Poverty. But remember, that isn't normal! It's the result of Mathilde's personality + years of indoctrination the Grey Order does to applicants it usually gets to mold from childhood (plus the fact that she's a quest protagonist).
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Hekarti is a somewhat complicated Goddess in terms of worship, after going through a short expedition towards the past, here is some information from Boney on it.
Well, depending on what they have, we might be able to use our dwarf connections to get the validity verified before presenting it. GT will have much harder time dismissing the proof as fake with a grumpy longbeard present to call him a lying tossbucket.
Depends heavily on what, if anything, they have of course.
Politics. Dieter did it in the wake of outlawing the Colleges of Magic, justifying the Elementalists as a replacement for them, and still took a lot of heat for doing so. Wilhelm brought back the Colleges in the wake of the Battle of Grootscher Marsh, where an Empire army without magical support (because Dieter didn't actually put into place any requirement that the Elementalists contribute to the Empire at all) got absolutely trounced by a Marienburg army with magical support from the Elves and from Baron Henryk's College of Navigation and Sea Magicks. The response to any push to legalize the Hedgewise will get the automatic response of why shouldn't they just be absorbed into the existing Colleges of Magic who have a proven track record and Teclis' stamp of approval, and a lot of Wizards would agree with that response.
Good point. What the Emperor giveth the Emperor can taketh away. Let us not forget that the Colleges were outlawed for a time, and many Magisters and Journeymen that were outside of them when the law passed died. The Hedgewise have much less power to fight back in such a scenario, as their present circumstances show, and they might suspect that any edict granting them legal status would be overturned sooner or later.
- Location
- Earth
Indeed.
A question raises itself to me.
Is it possible to raise a 9th College still under the Aegis of the Colleges of Magic to add a new magic tradition?
Because as far as I understand after a human has acquired their first arcane mark they can't switch what they've learned without succumbing to dhar. Which rightfully gets them the death penalty.
They would of course still answer to the Articles, likely would have their own Order Rules in addition - just as every current Order has their own rules - and are under the authority of the Grand Patriarch/Matriarch.
I think we should take the Old World and discreet, you know totally not Hekrati in a mustache. We could probably sell that to everyone who is already on board.
K von Carstein
Likes to go for a walk
- Location
- Belgium
- Pronouns
- He
I'd rather get the theorist. We will need them to build a working theory as basis for any further action. Enchanters can always be used later.
Doesn't the Old World includes Bretonnia, Kislev and the Karaz Ankor? I doubt those polity would be thrilled about some elves goddess strolling on their turf. The first 2 because she's a concurrent goddess, the third because she's an elves one.
Edit: also, promising to build them in nations we don't control looks like a very bad idea.
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- Location
- Utrecht
Given how the Grey college is related to the Hedgewise, i don't think it would work out.
- Pronouns
- He/Him/His
After a little more thought this plan does appeal to me:
[ ] Plan: Secular waystones for everyone (Theorist edition)
-[ ] [SCOPE] The Old World (+4)
-[ ] [REP] Magical Theorist (-2)
-[ ] [FORM] Secular (-2)
With secular waystones I can't think of a downside, but maybe I'm missing something.
[ ] Plan: Secular waystones for everyone (Theorist edition)
-[ ] [SCOPE] The Old World (+4)
-[ ] [REP] Magical Theorist (-2)
-[ ] [FORM] Secular (-2)
With secular waystones I can't think of a downside, but maybe I'm missing something.
Ok, Tindomiel time.
Some scattered thoughts about our option:
If we go Old World, or Empire, Bretonnia, and Kislev, we should probably go Discreet or Secular - it seems like a bad idea to alienate our partners by dedicating Waystones to a foreign God.
I wonder. I think that House Tindomiel does want in on the project, and this is posturing so they can get a better deal.
Well then. I gotta admit that House Tindomiel drives a harder bargin than I thought it would.
Here's something that I want us to consider: House Tindomiel expects the project to end in us creating new Waystones. House Tindomiel demands a price that only comes into effect if the project achieves the best possible results we could hope for, which means two things: House Tindomiel is incredibly optimistic about the project, and House Tindomiel will be very dedicated to the success of the project.
Some scattered thoughts about our option:
What do we actually want of House Tindomiel? If it's just the political knowledge of the Great Houses - which is one of the main reasons I wanted them - the heir and the head should both be fine. If it's magical knowledge, the head is the insane overkill and the magical theorist would be fine - or the enchanter, I suppose, there's a discussion to be had here. Is there any reason to take the priestess?
I would like us all to consider the last possibility: secular. No troublesome Hekarti dedications at all. The downside is that it means we need to give them first refusal on constructing Waystones in a very large area, but is that such a terrible thing?
Laurelorn Shrines is a thing to consider. It means the only political cost we pay is with Laurelorn itself, but remember that we will only pay it when the project is done. It does mean we can only get the Heir or the Priestess, though.
If we go Old World, or Empire, Bretonnia, and Kislev, we should probably go Discreet or Secular - it seems like a bad idea to alienate our partners by dedicating Waystones to a foreign God.
- Location
- Aotearoa
There's a perfectly excellent way around that.
Say 'No thanks!' now. Then later, negotiate from a stronger position. They want to propagate their patroness.
We don't have to take their first offer, and their second will be better once it's looking like there is some success to be part of, rather than some meagre scraps to disdain.
Well, you heard the man: anything other than erecting new Waystones is meagre scraps. They are already assuming, based on the nothing we have to show so far, that this project will be a massive success, and they are fine not getting paid at all if it isn't. This doesn't seem like the sort of thing that having a track record could help us with.
There's no provision for doing so under the Articles, which defines the legal Orders as the eight formed under Magnus and Teclis.
Last anybody checked, yes.
- Location
- Netherlands
- Pronouns
- She/Her
Big Fan Of Hedgewise here. Loved seeing them here.
All three options have appeal there... The dream for me is if they could be legitimized enough to uh, stop being actively targeted for extermination by the Empire, but I don't know if Openly would actually lead us there. I will say that this feels like one of the best scenarios through which one could try to openly legitimize the Hedgewise, because there are a loooot of politics in the way of anyone who would want to try and raise a fuss about it. And if the Project is successful enough... That would be a major feather in the Hedgewise's cap that could be used to help legitimize them.
My biggest concern politically is probably that some groups might be cautious of being associated with the Hedgewise due to the Project, and have fears of that hurting their own legitimacy. The Colleges we've already recruited can't exactly drive a harder bargain now after the fact, but perhaps it could still impact their relationship to the Project in some way...
I'd love to see counterarguments to that concern if anyone has them, but for now I shall thinky thinky. Even if that concern of mine can't be assuaged, it wouldn't automatically kill the "Openly" option for me. It'd just be something to evaluate as a tradeoff.
On another note, I'm not sure I quite understand the "Discreet" option? My reading of the description of the "Discreet" option would make them, well, not dedicated to Hekarti. So why would they be any more interested in that than Secular?
All three options have appeal there... The dream for me is if they could be legitimized enough to uh, stop being actively targeted for extermination by the Empire, but I don't know if Openly would actually lead us there. I will say that this feels like one of the best scenarios through which one could try to openly legitimize the Hedgewise, because there are a loooot of politics in the way of anyone who would want to try and raise a fuss about it. And if the Project is successful enough... That would be a major feather in the Hedgewise's cap that could be used to help legitimize them.
My biggest concern politically is probably that some groups might be cautious of being associated with the Hedgewise due to the Project, and have fears of that hurting their own legitimacy. The Colleges we've already recruited can't exactly drive a harder bargain now after the fact, but perhaps it could still impact their relationship to the Project in some way...
I'd love to see counterarguments to that concern if anyone has them, but for now I shall thinky thinky. Even if that concern of mine can't be assuaged, it wouldn't automatically kill the "Openly" option for me. It'd just be something to evaluate as a tradeoff.
I was initially way more skeptical of House Tindomiel's conditions, and got the vibe they might not be that willing to play ball if they were driving such a hard bargain, but this is a really good point that makes me much more open to the idea of dealing with them here.
On another note, I'm not sure I quite understand the "Discreet" option? My reading of the description of the "Discreet" option would make them, well, not dedicated to Hekarti. So why would they be any more interested in that than Secular?
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The implication is that Hekarti's already worshipped by another name as an accepted God or Goddess of the Empire.
Alternative plan:
[] Plan: Just the Heir
-[] [SCOPE] Laurelorn (0)
-[] [REP] Heir (-1)
-[] [FORM] Shrines (+1)
Put up shrines exclusively in Laurelorn, and get the Heir's assistance. They are "Well Educated" and "Respected", but don't have a specialisation yet—which means they are a blank slate. This would be the perfect place to prove themselves, and perhaps develop into a waystone specialist, rather than bringing any preconceptions from their prior occupation. Does mean they have less personal experience, but at the same time we came to Tindomiel mostly for their institutional knowledge, their house resources, and the prestige of being aligned with a major house—all of which we can get through the Heir. We don't really need one of their specialists at this point—we have a runelord, a grey lord, three lords magister, two witches, a druid and a hedgewise. But the up and coming Heir to the house, who wants and needs approval and an achievement to their name? Honestly, I think this could be a good choice, and potentially an interesting character to interact with as well.
[] Plan: Just the Heir
-[] [SCOPE] Laurelorn (0)
-[] [REP] Heir (-1)
-[] [FORM] Shrines (+1)
Put up shrines exclusively in Laurelorn, and get the Heir's assistance. They are "Well Educated" and "Respected", but don't have a specialisation yet—which means they are a blank slate. This would be the perfect place to prove themselves, and perhaps develop into a waystone specialist, rather than bringing any preconceptions from their prior occupation. Does mean they have less personal experience, but at the same time we came to Tindomiel mostly for their institutional knowledge, their house resources, and the prestige of being aligned with a major house—all of which we can get through the Heir. We don't really need one of their specialists at this point—we have a runelord, a grey lord, three lords magister, two witches, a druid and a hedgewise. But the up and coming Heir to the house, who wants and needs approval and an achievement to their name? Honestly, I think this could be a good choice, and potentially an interesting character to interact with as well.
deathofrats0808
Don’t think of it as dying; just as leaving early
- Location
- Earth
This is an Elven goddess. Most of them probably do know the Winds, and all of them presumably know how the worship of her works.Yes Mathilde, this is perfectly normal.
There's no reason to assume the head of the house is the best wizard they have. He's probably good, but I'd assume he costs more because he's both a good wizard and wields political influence greater than anyone else on the list by an order of magnitude. I suspect either the theorist or the enchanter would be more able to directly contribute, but have less resources.
- Location
- Australia
We don't want a blank slate though, we want a new colour.
Ok, some plan ideas:
Plan Eonir Politics
-[*] [SCOPE] Laurelorn
-[*] [REP] Heir
-[*] [FORM] Shrines
Keep this whole thing an Eonir politics issue. We back up one Great House - the only magical house that reached out to the Empire - and in return they give us their heir to help us navigate the political landscape. This probably means not getting a whole lot of magical help from Tindomiel, but do we really need it? The Winds of magic are the best understood part in this whole endavour, and between the Colleges and the Grey Lords we probably have this covered.
Plan Go Big (But Not Too Big)
-[*] [SCOPE] The Old World
-[*] [REP] Head
-[*] [FORM] Discreet
Councillor Isthien will provide us an in with the Council, which is important for the long term viability of the project. And he definitely knows a bunch about magic since he's the head of a magical house. Dedicating the Waystones of the Old World to a specific diety is...maybe not that great, but at least it's one that's already in the pantheon.
Plan Go Big (But Shallow)
-[*] [SCOPE] The Old World
-[*] [REP] Enchanter/Magical Theorist
-[*] [FORM] Secular
Get us a magical expert at the cost of letting House Tindomiel have right of first refusal on building any and all Waystones - but without dedicating any of them to Hekarti at all. I have a hard time thinking deeply about how big a price that is to pay, politically and practically, but I think this is probably ok?
I lean towards the first option right now but I need to think more deeply about all of this. I'm going to be away from my computer for a while so I think I'll come back later and see what the discussion brings.
Plan Eonir Politics
-[*] [SCOPE] Laurelorn
-[*] [REP] Heir
-[*] [FORM] Shrines
Keep this whole thing an Eonir politics issue. We back up one Great House - the only magical house that reached out to the Empire - and in return they give us their heir to help us navigate the political landscape. This probably means not getting a whole lot of magical help from Tindomiel, but do we really need it? The Winds of magic are the best understood part in this whole endavour, and between the Colleges and the Grey Lords we probably have this covered.
Plan Go Big (But Not Too Big)
-[*] [SCOPE] The Old World
-[*] [REP] Head
-[*] [FORM] Discreet
Councillor Isthien will provide us an in with the Council, which is important for the long term viability of the project. And he definitely knows a bunch about magic since he's the head of a magical house. Dedicating the Waystones of the Old World to a specific diety is...maybe not that great, but at least it's one that's already in the pantheon.
Plan Go Big (But Shallow)
-[*] [SCOPE] The Old World
-[*] [REP] Enchanter/Magical Theorist
-[*] [FORM] Secular
Get us a magical expert at the cost of letting House Tindomiel have right of first refusal on building any and all Waystones - but without dedicating any of them to Hekarti at all. I have a hard time thinking deeply about how big a price that is to pay, politically and practically, but I think this is probably ok?
I lean towards the first option right now but I need to think more deeply about all of this. I'm going to be away from my computer for a while so I think I'll come back later and see what the discussion brings.
- Location
- Europa, Jupiter Orbit
Hashut might have some ritual to create fossil fuels, maybe? Using live biomass and souls, of course.
I thought that this was only the traditionalist and mainstream Runesmiths and that radical ones could tread into basic invention without being downright despised by their peers.