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I've been saying for a while that we should get Prince Galenstra on our side. He's given humans a chance because Boris Todbringer proved himself to him, so we should capitalise on that so his impression further solidifies. Make it look so that we are a worthy ally and continuing relations with humans (or at least the reasonable ones) is for the best for the Eonir. Demonstrating the many guns of the Empire and what they can do is certainly one of the better ways to do this, and I see that a part of the Great Northern road is attached to Elven roads according to Boney's map. Such things have to be slowly floated as a possibility at first so he could consider it.

He also has 2 votes on the High Council and is a Triumvir 1/4th of the time, so there's also that.
 
[ ] Spend time assisting or ingratiating yourself with someone else

we should start trying to do this with some of the clans next turn: figure out who would be the best/most practical to work with.

Looking at the table I made, Fanpatar and Ellemakil will probably be the easiest to bring on board, but we really want one of the houses that are linked to the temple of Hoeth, except that both Thyriolan and Ecthelion sound difficult to work with. Based on the information we have so far, Thyriolan might be the better choice. There's also Tindomiel, which would be a radical choice—Hekarti is the goddess of Dark Magic and Conjuration—but they seem to be well disposed towards humans, and having mages/priests who understand dark magic could be useful. Also I love a good Hecate reference.

For political reasons, we probably want to pull in Malforric as well, but that could be very challenging. They are the strongest house, with both a house vote and a triumvirate vote, and are connected to the temple of the most important elven god, but they are also really against us being here.

I think my top three to investigate would be:
Fanpatar (also gives us a connection with the Ward of Rain)
Thyriolan
Tindomiel OR Malforric, depending on what type of gamble we want. Dark magic or political power?

It really depends on the power dynamics, really. Do people respect Malforric or despise them? Are Thyriolan and Ecthelion allies or rivals? Is Tindomiel actually safe to include? Does the Vicarius of Rain vote with his house or does he vote on his own agenda? Which temple were Ellemakil linked to before Ulric, and what repercussions has their conversion had on elven society? Are they respected or mocked for adopting a human god? Actually, rereading, and it seems they are in the pocket of the Queen at the moment. Hmm, I'll add that to the table.

And I haven't even touched upon the four Wards yet. We've met the leaders of Rain and Frost (not sure what the plural of Vicarius is), and like them both, (even if Cadaeth is sus) and Storm sounds... interesting, but we have very little information on the Sun ward, which is where the Capital is, except that their Vicarius is both on the triumvirate and a member of Malforric, and apparently voted against us.

Edit: actually, looking at the wards, two of them are controlled by the forestborn, so maybe it is a good idea to do the cultural immersion action with them.

I've been saying for a while that we should get Prince Galenstra on our side. He's given humans a chance because Boris Todbringer proved himself to him, so we should capitalise on that so his impression further solidifies. Make it look so that we are a worthy ally and continuing relations with humans (or at least the reasonable ones) is for the best for the Eonir. Demonstrating the many guns of the Empire and what they can do is certainly one of the better ways to do this, and I see that a part of the Great Northern road is attached to Elven roads according to Boney's map. Such things have to be slowly floated as a possibility at first so he could consider it.

We should tell him about the Sylvania campaign and how we used cannon to destroy a vampire keep. Gods, could you imagine elves deploying dwarf made cannon in battle? We should look into the possibility of expanding the EIC in this direction—if we can set up an outpost in K8P, I don't see why we cant get one here.
 
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Looking at the table I made, Fanpatar and Ellemakil will probably be the easiest to bring on board, but we really want one of the houses that are linked to the temple of Hoeth, except that both Thyriolan and Ecthelion sound difficult to work with. Based on the information we have so far, Thyriolan might be the better choice. There's also Tindomiel, which would be a radical choice—Hekarti is the goddess of Dark Magic and Conjuration—but they seem to be well disposed towards humans, and having mages/priests who understand dark magic could be useful. Also I love a good Hecate reference.

For political reasons, we probably want to pull in Malforric as well, but that could be very challenging. They are the strongest house, with both a house vote and a triumvirate vote, and are connected to the temple of the most important elven god, but they are also really against us being here.

I think my top three to investigate would be:
Fanpatar (also gives us a connection with the Ward of Rain)
Thyriolan
Tindomiel OR Malforric, depending on what type of gamble we want. Dark magic or political power?
I would argue that the Ward of frost is the most important one to go to first, they have invested interests, and have already promised to put their foot in. but that could turn quite bitter if we leave them for later and give more prominent roles to others.

because let's be clear, with these things 'first to the table gets the biggest portion of the pie'. so talking to the group that reached out first would be... wise, when it comes to not burning bridges.
 
I would argue that the Ward of frost is the most important one to go to first, they have invested interests, and have already promised to put their foot in. but that could turn quite bitter if we leave them for later and give more prominent roles to others.

because let's be clear, with these things 'first to the table gets the biggest portion of the pie'. so talking to the group that reached out first would be... wise, when it comes to not burning bridges.

That's a fair point, I got a little focused on just recruiting the Major Houses, but we do want to consider the Wards as their equals.
 
So about Tindomiel... how Dark is Dark Magic whose patron they wworship I wonder? I mean we do have their extraordinary knowledge of Dhar for someone who has never used it, I wonder if we can leverage that to get them on board. The arcane lore of the Liber Mortis makes a hell of a chip to trade in with those willing to deal in such things.
 
There's also Tindomiel, which would be a radical choice—Hekarti is the goddess of Dark Magic and Conjuration—but they seem to be well disposed towards humans, and having mages/priests who understand dark magic could be useful. Also I love a good Hecate reference.
part of me really wants to see what they are about... like, really, really whats to see.

but I can't help but think that 'well disposed towards humans' might be political polite for 'Evangelism/Proselytism' and that would put mathy in one hell of a tight spot with the collages and empire on one side and the elves on the other.
 
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So about Tindomiel... how Dark is Dark Magic whose patron they wworship I wonder? I mean we do have their extraordinary knowledge of Dhar for someone who has never used it, I wonder if we can leverage that to get them on board. The arcane lore of the Liber Mortis makes a hell of a chip to trade in with those willing to deal in such things.
Our Dhar Insight is separate to our knowledge of the Liber Mortis, or, it is connected somewhat but it is only a piece. In the sense that Mathilde can reasonably talk about her Dhar Insight and justify it but she could never do that with the Liber Mortis insights since it's directly related to Necromancy.

Also, as far as I know Elves don't touch Necromancy. It's a human art made by Nagash who tortured Elves to acquire it, they're all about "Pure" Dark Magic. They even call the Dhar they manipulate "True Dhar" (or at least the Druchii do).
 
Our Dhar Insight is separate to our knowledge of the Liber Mortis, or, it is connected somewhat but it is only a piece. In the sense that Mathilde can reasonably talk about her Dhar Insight and justify it but she could never do that with the Liber Mortis insights since it's directly related to Necromancy.

Also, as far as I know Elves don't touch Necromancy. It's a human art made by Nagash who tortured Elves to acquire it, they're all about "Pure" Dark Magic. They even call the Dhar they manipulate "True Dhar" (or at least the Druchii do).

Well yeah, that is kind of what might make the information valuable, it is necromancy which they do not have or I assume understand, from a source that is actually close to Nagash and not Hans the local lunatic hedge mage who made a few rotten corpses twich.
 
part of me really wants to see what they are about... like, really, really whats to see.

but I can't help but think that 'well disposed towards humans' might be political polite for 'Proselytism' and that would put mathy in one hell of a tight spot with the collages and empire on one side and the elves on the other.

Oh wow, I didn't even think of that. And especially considering how even the benign elven gods tend to be... too intense for humans, it would be a major concern. The empire already has issues with the Cult of Khaine, it doesn't need a god of dark magic in the mix.

It would also make it much harder to turn Ranald into a god of magic.
 
Well yeah, that is kind of what might make the information valuable, it is necromancy which they do not have or I assume understand, from a source that is actually close to Nagash and not Hans the local lunatic hedge mage who made a few rotten corpses twich.
Are you actually suggesting we discuss Necromancy with Elves? Are you serious? You realise doing that is putting our life on the line? The instant we mention out loud anything that indicates such knowledge, there is a chance it reaches the ears of someone who is willing to use it as a bargaining chip with Mathilde's life on the line.
 
Are you actually suggesting we discuss Necromancy with Elves? Are you serious? You realise doing that is putting our life on the line? The instant we mention out loud anything that indicates such knowledge, there is a chance it reaches the ears of someone who is willing to use it as a bargaining chip with Mathilde's life on the line.

I am certainly not proposing we do so now, start talking about the safe Dhar insight that we put in papers and then down the line when trust is stronger and the relationship more mature start dropping hints that sort of thing.
 
Hekarti is best known as the Goddess of Dark Magic, but she is the Hydra Queen and has a head for each Wind. She can be considered a more 'pure' Goddess of Magic than Hoeth, who is the God of Knowledge in general and therefore only the God of Magic by default.

"The Cytharai represent the world as it is now. The Cadai represent what we strive to make it."

Hekarti isn't evil, or at least no more evil than Mathlann.
 
Hekarti is best known as the Goddess of Dark Magic, but she is the Hydra Queen and has a head for each Wind. She can be considered a more 'pure' Goddess of Magic than Hoeth, who is the God of Knowledge in general and therefore only the God of Magic by default.



Hekarti isn't evil, or at least no more evil than Mathlann.


That feels like the split between normal dragons and wind dragons—those who strive to be apart from the world, and those that strive to be a part of the world.

Anyway, Hekarti sounds like a good choice to get involved now, and priest of the goddess of magic are the sort of people WEB-MAT was made to work with.
 
That feels like the split between normal dragons and wind dragons—those who strive to be apart from the world, and those that strive to be a part of the world.

Anyway, Hekarti sounds like a good choice to get involved now, and priest of the goddess of magic are the sort of people WEB-MAT was made to work with.
I would be more hesitant to talk to a Wind Dragon dedicated to the Wind of Murder, Blood and War tbh.
 
I also want to learn how much soft power the Queen has. Is she the hands off protector of the constitution type of does she have considerable political and social weight to throw around? Would buddying up with her help or harm our operation and our chances to get Elven mages on board?
Well, the Elvves have had a monarchy with some amount of power since before the coming of chaos. So I imagine she has a fair deal, although I think she's currently considered quite young and therefore has difficulty wielding that power.

I would be more hesitant to talk to a Wind Dragon dedicated to the Wind of Murder, Blood and War tbh.
Hekarti has nothing to do with that though. That's all Khaine.

Mathilde should probably have a look at the Eonir's Mandela at some point.
 
Well, the Elvves have had a monarchy with some amount of power since before the coming of chaos. So I imagine she has a fair deal, although I think she's currently considered quite young and therefore has difficulty wielding that power.


Hekarti has nothing to do with that though. That's all Khaine.

Mathilde should probably have a look at the Eonir's Mandela at some point.
Oh I know, it's just that I think some of the Cytharai are absolutely horrible and anyone who dedicates themselves to them is probably not alright. Some of the Cytharai make sense in how you can justify that they're not evil, but I can't wrap my head around how someone who dedicates themselves to Murder like Khaine can be... not evil. I suppose it's possible if you twist it enough to say that a Khaine worshipper who only kills those who deserve to die, but Khaine doesn't care about that. He just cares for murder and slaughter.
 
I also want to learn how much soft power the Queen has. Is she the hands off protector of the constitution type of does she have considerable political and social weight to throw around? Would buddying up with her help or harm our operation and our chances to get Elven mages on board?
For what it's worth, she has enough influence that she could sway a House towards contact.
But now, with House Elwyn extinct, your Graf proving himself to me, House Ellemakil being swayed by the Queen, and a Forestborn Warden of Frost in favour of contact, the politics have shifted.
 
Oh I know, it's just that I think some of the Cytharai are absolutely horrible and anyone who dedicates themselves to them is probably not alright. Some of the Cytharai make sense in how you can justify that they're not evil, but I can't wrap my head around how someone who dedicates themselves to Murder like Khaine can be... not evil. I suppose it's possible if you twist it enough to say that a Khaine worshipper who only kills those who deserve to die, but Khaine doesn't care about that. He just cares for murder and slaughter.

To quote literally Zeus:
To me you are the most hateful of all gods who hold Olympus.
Forever quarrelling is dear to your heart, wars and battles.
 
Oh I know, it's just that I think some of the Cytharai are absolutely horrible and anyone who dedicates themselves to them is probably not alright. Some of the Cytharai make sense in how you can justify that they're not evil, but I can't wrap my head around how someone who dedicates themselves to Murder like Khaine can be... not evil. I suppose it's possible if you twist it enough to say that a Khaine worshipper who only kills those who deserve to die, but Khaine doesn't care about that. He just cares for murder and slaughter.
Khaine's primary portfolio is war, to be fair.

As for the rest, that depends on how you view the Gods, Are they formed by the psyches of those who worship them? The Elves do plenty of murder and cruelty and so on. Are they autonomous and simply possess intrinsic natures? Then Khaine is as he is, and to not worship him will bring you disaster. Are they explanations for the world around the people who worship them? Then we get back to all the terrible things the Elves have seen and done.

At this point it's not about good and evil. Khaine exists, and ignoring a god of that temperament tends to have poor consequences
 
Oh I know, it's just that I think some of the Cytharai are absolutely horrible and anyone who dedicates themselves to them is probably not alright. Some of the Cytharai make sense in how you can justify that they're not evil, but I can't wrap my head around how someone who dedicates themselves to Murder like Khaine can be... not evil. I suppose it's possible if you twist it enough to say that a Khaine worshipper who only kills those who deserve to die, but Khaine doesn't care about that. He just cares for murder and slaughter.
Khaine as worshipped by humans is purely about murder itself.

Khaine as worshipped by Elves is a god of war (and if you're a Drucchi, then also lots of murder).
 
Khaine's primary portfolio is war, to be fair.

As for the rest, that depends on how you view the Gods, Are they formed by the psyches of those who worship them? The Elves do plenty of murder and cruelty and so on. Are they autonomous and simply possess intrinsic natures? Then Khaine is as he is, and to not worship him will bring you disaster. Are they explanations for the world around the people who worship them? Then we get back to all the terrible things the Elves have seen and done.

At this point it's not about good and evil. Khaine exists, and ignoring a god of that temperament tends to have poor consequences
To make it clear, I fully understand venerating Khaine because he exists and acknowleding that he oversees War. I'm talking about people who dedicate their entire self to said god, like the Witch Elves, Hag Queens, Sisters of Slaughter and Knives of Khaine.

As far as I know no Asur dedicates himself to Khaine like they do to Isha, Asuryan or Kurnous. They simply pray to him when they're about to venture into war, and only warily.
 
To make it clear, I fully understand venerating Khaine because he exists and acknowleding that he oversees War. I'm talking about people who dedicate their entire self to said god, like the Witch Elves, Hag Queens, Sisters of Slaughter and Knives of Khaine.

As far as I know no Asur dedicates himself to Khaine like they do to Isha, Asuryan or Kurnous. They simply pray to him when they're about to venture into war, and only warily.
Well yes, but here's the thing. The Druchii are evil. Like, they as a society are terrible. They believe whole-heartedly that might makes right. It's not shocking that they're the sort of crazy to go around murdering people, because they don't see it as wrong.
 
As far as I know no Asur dedicates himself to Khaine like they do to Isha, Asuryan or Kurnous. They simply pray to him when they're about to venture into war, and only warily.
Then what is Tyrion?
His work is war, his talents are war, his life is, for the most part, war.
With the Elven understanding of worship, which is not about prayer but mantling the god in your related actions, what is he if not the truest disciple of Khaine?
 
Then what is Tyrion?
His work is war, his talents are war, his life is, for the most part, war.
With the Elven understanding of worship, which is not about prayer but mantling the god in your related actions, what is he if not the truest disciple of Khaine?
First, that depends on whether you buy into 2e's description of how the Elves worship. Second, Tyrion spends most of his time doing nothing. His primary job is being a bodyguard after all.
 
Then what is Tyrion?
His work is war, his talents are war, his life is, for the most part, war.
With the Elven understanding of worship, which is not about prayer but mantling the god in your related actions, what is he if not the truest disciple of Khaine?
I barely have any knowledge of Tyrion to counter this in any way, but as far as I know he's the bodygaurd and consort/lover to the Everqueen. You could argue he mantles himself in either Isha or Atharti when he sleeps with the woman he loves, mantles himself in Eldrazor when he fights for honor, mantles himself in Asuryan by imitating the relationship of his ancestor with the Everqueen and protecting the realms of the Asur. Does he spend day and night venerating Khaine, praying to him and dedicating his kills to Khaine? Then he's not like the "Brides of Khaine".
 
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