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Warhammer Fantasy: Divided Loyalties - an Advisor's Quest

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The issue probably is more of a telephone distortion effect, where each master gives a slightly different version of their lore to their apprentice than what they were taught, filtered through their personal worldview, and exacerbated by lack of access to Waystones to check if their theoretical knowledge still lines up with reality closely enough.
 
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StormySky said:
The issue probably is more of a telephone distortion effect, where each master gives a slightly different version of their lore to their apprentice than what they were taught, filtered through their personal worldview, exacerbated by lack of access to Waystones to to check if their theoretical knowledge still lines up with reality closely enough.
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That is definitely a problem, but again, that's better than nothing. It provides a piece that we can perhaps assemble into what we already have to construct a usable fascimile of where we can go forward from here. I don't expect the knowledge to be perfectly preserved and untainted from the long passage of time, but the fact that it is a religous imperative to preserve knowledge and traditions across the ages from master to apprentice is a point in favor.

It's also possible that Hedge magic is less involved in "personal worldview", like Hag Magic seems to be, since it implements so many ritualistic components that appear to be external rather than flooding their body with magic like traditional Collegiate magic. I have a feeling they're less... chiselhandy in that sense.
 
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[X] [HEDGEWISE] Discreetly
[X][HOUSE] Yes


[x] Plan how many people can actually read elf anyways?
[X] Plan Discretion Is The Watchword
 
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Codex said:
Side note, I checked this guy's name, and apparently Aksel is a masculine name of Danish origin meaning "Father of Peace", which seems to originate off of Hebrew. It effectively means "Defender of the People", deriving from Av meaning Father, and Shalom meaning Peace. It's quite literally the most obvious signposting in relation to the whole "Protection" aspect of Haletha, and perhaps a nod to her Father's guise as the Protector.
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Interesting. THat's a weirdly similar meaning to Alexsander. If you'd just told me the name and the meaning I'd have assumed it was a variant on that.

mathymancer said:
That could be it. Another thing is that it seems to me - and the extent of my knowledge on this is from skimming the wiki article - that Cormac really fucked up the Empire. If there is any way to claim that he might have been Everchosen, such as many people witnessing the kind of transformation you describe, then there's plenty of motivation to do so. It might be easier to believe that you saved the whole world and that all this bloodshed served some purpose.

EDIT: Hold on. The wiki article says that Cormac was a contemporary of Sigmar, but from the way Aksel tells it the Cult of Sigmar took advantage of his invasion, so it must have happened after Sigmar's ascension. The wiki gives 9 I.C as the date of the invasion but if the Cult of Sigmar was around it must have been 73 I.C at the earliest. Either the wiki's timeline can't be trusted (which seems likely) or this isn't the same guy as the canon Cormac Bloodaxe. Maybe they named someone else that in the original's honour?
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The wiki is probably representing actual information from a source. Boney has almost taken the character and changed stuff to better fit with established quest canon and to set up plot lines and such for later.

Codex said:
Obviously this is the sort of thing that the Sigmarite church suppresses, and I believe it has been mentioned more often but I can't find the key words. Anyways, while the official histories tries to hide the fact, Sigmar did trust the Hedgefolk's advice, so it's plausible that he gave them a lookout over the Forest of Shadows. It's also possible that they were significantly stronger back then, without any restrictions imposed on them by anti-magic sentiment. That didn't exist before the Cult of Sigmar started throwing their weight around.

We can't know for certain how much he knows, but nothing he said sets off any alarm bells that contradict what we previously knew.
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I mean, it's equally valid to say that the Hedgewise might be over-exaggerating the event a little. For all we know Sigmar had a single conversation with one magic user and then that's become "Sigmar had magical advisors". Assuming history is being suppressed is not any more valid than assuming that the story is blown out of proportion, or simply mistaken.

And yes, Mathilde also mentioedn it, but Mathilde is from the Colleges, which have a vested interest in arguing that Sigmar was cool with magic, and also remains fallible.
 
deathofrats0808 said:
I mean, it's equally valid to say that the Hedgewise might be over-exaggerating the event a little. For all we know Sigmar had a single conversation with one magic user and then that's become "Sigmar had magical advisors". Assuming history is being suppressed is not any more valid than assuming that the story is blown out of proportion, or simply mistaken.

And yes, Mathilde also mentioedn it, but Mathilde is from the Colleges, which have a vested interest in arguing that Sigmar was cool with magic, and also remains fallible.
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I mean Sigmar is conceptually fine with magic, he is both made of it and hands it out to priests. Now you could argue Sigmar is not fine with secular magic, but then as far as we have seen the magic of the Blessed Few is not secular, being as they are a cult.
 
DragonParadox said:
I mean Sigmar is conceptually fine with magic, he is both made of it and hands it out to priests. Now you could argue Sigmar is not fine with secular magic, but then as far as we have seen the magic of the Blessed Few is not secular, being as they are a cult.
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This assumes that Sigmar the god is the same person as Sigmar the man. Also, note that Hedgewise covers a variety of different groups, only some of which are cults.
 
[X] [HEDGEWISE] Discreetly
[X] [HEDGEWISE] Secretly
[X][HOUSE] Yes
[X] Plan Discretion Is The Watchword
[X] Plan: Local Security
[X] Plan how many people can actually read elf anyways?
 
[X] [HEDGEWISE] Discreetly
[X][HOUSE] Yes

[x] Plan how many people can actually read elf anyways?
-[x] [SCOPE] The Empire (+2)
-[x] [REP] Magical Theorist (-2)
-[x] [FORM] Dedication (0)

This is a little premature to be thinking about, but if there's a faction of elves that has a vested interest in spreading new waystones across the Empire... Neat. I want them to do that. If it turns out this is some horrible scheme/premeditated betrayal, then we take appropriate action. Otherwise I'm not too fussed about them having a religious agenda.

In some ways I'm glad that their agenda is overt (hopefully).
 
deathofrats0808 said:
This assumes that Sigmar the god is the same person as Sigmar the man. Also, note that Hedgewise covers a variety of different groups, only some of which are cults.
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As far as I can tell all of them are cults, it just depends what of:
  1. Ranald
  2. Mystery Cult Unknown
  3. Haletha
As for the distinction of man and god Sigmar the man was fine with the cult of Ulric so so would only not be fine with the Hedgewise if he would have had cause to dislike their gods... which could of course be the case, we do know at least one branch is currently in a feud with the Cult of Ulric. But if that enmity is that old it would not be Sigmar hating the Hedgewise for being magicians specifically.
 
Alliterate said:
Even this local shrines is a bad deal. Other Wards probably won't appreciate us offering this overreach of our authority at all.
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How is this an overreach? Tindomiel want permission to add either a dedication or a shrine to their goddess to any waystone they construct. If anything, it's an overreach to forbid them from doing this.

If Thorek wanted to include a shrine to Thungni on each waystone, would you forbid him?

It's not like we're forcing people to build shrines to Hekarti—the builders just want to include a shrine when they make one. We're not going to march into Kislev and say "we're going to build a bunch of wayshrines and there's nothing you can do about it". They are going to ask us to create one, and a part of that deal would be the inclusion of a Hekarti shrine. And if they don't agree to that, they can't get one—at least, not one built by Tindomiel, at least, and they'd have to wait until we're free to hire someone else to build one. And no, before anyone says anything, that's not extortion. It's negotiation. If we want their mages and priests to build waystones for us, that is the price we want—and currently, nobody else is offering that service. Maybe if one of the Hoeth houses had approached us first and told us what their requirements are for constructing waystones are, we'd have a counter offer, but apparently they are not interested, so their loss I guess.

Now I've mentioned several times that I don't want Elven shrines in human lands because elven gods and human worshippers have a bad history together, but honestly, some of the arguments against Tindomiel are getting ridiculous. If Tindomiel end up upsetting the status quo by building a shrine where it's not wanted, then they are the ones who are going to have to smother that fire. There are twenty other houses on the council, plus the wards, plus the triumvirate. If they antagonise everyone by needlessly forcing their faith down everyone's throats, then they probably don't deserve their position as a major house. Houses have gone extinct before, and their property returned to the crown. If they make an enemy out of everybody, they are going to go down, and we won't do jack to protect them.

And finally, "right of first refusal". How many can they build at once? 5? 10? 100? Sooner or later, they'll run out of resources, or have their priests stretched too thin, and then we have to find another group to build waystones for us. And what price will they charge for the privilege, I wonder?
 
deathofrats0808 said:
This assumes that Sigmar the god is the same person as Sigmar the man. Also, note that Hedgewise covers a variety of different groups, only some of which are cults.
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According to Shades of Empire Page 56:

"Were this the extent of their activities, the Hedgefolk would not attract so much attention from Witch Hunters and Magisters. Most Cunning Folk also sell an array of potions and talismans of a dubious kind, such as love philtres, lucky charms, protection pouches, and similar items, all of which are deemed to be the province of witchcraft by many overzealous Sigmarites. Worse, a minority—called the Blessed Few by the Hedgefolk— channel magic. Although they believe their powers to be granted by the Gods, Imperial Law does not agree. As far as the authorities are concerned, the Blessed Few are Witches, and when found guilty, they are burned."

So I'm not sure about that. All Hedgefolk are dedicated to some sort of divine entity, some of which we know, some of which we don't. They are not, in fact, a secular entity. Their magic mechanically holds different powers than Divine Magic, but that isn't to say that they're not Cult-ish.
 
Codex said:
Considering Mathilde's tendency to go around riding her horse wearing her robes and Witch Hunter hat and how decidedly unsubtle she typically is in her goings on, and the fact that she lives in a fancy tower atop a damn mountain, I think it's safe to say that she's closer to the Dark Lady of Nuln.
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Coming soon to your nearest tavern as sung by a chorus of bards, "The Verdict of Drakenhof", a symphonic gromril (dwarf-metal) ballad on how Dame Mathilde Weber fought the undead hordes of Sylvania and smote down that ruinous castle with sword and cannon to honor her fallen liege.

Codex said:
Either Kadoh is secretly a master of diplomacy, or Isthien simply heard the rumors of Johann and Kadoh slamming each other into the dirt.
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Isthien: "Is this a colorful metaphor for what they're calling it nowadays, or literally what they did? Either way, noted."
 
Our perception of the vote is shaped by what options are provided, and how they're given. In this case, these are all choices given by House Tindomiel. And from their perspective, maybe this is all completely reasonable! Perhaps we're getting not just a fair deal, but to Councillor Isthien, an outright generous one!

The problem, however, isn't how Tindomiel sees things. It's how everyone else will. And we don't get to consult around with everyone else before making this decision. We have to guess, and even the more generous plans expect some amount of push-back for what we pick. If there truly wasn't anything to worry about with this deal, then the following example Plan would be the best one:

[] Plan Free Lunch
-[] [SCOPE] The Old World (+4)
-[] [REP] Head (-3)
-[] [REP] Enchanter (-2)
-[] [FORM] Shrines (+1)

In an ideal world, this plan gets House Tindomiel on hook for both giving free construction help across the entire Old World, but also giving us the assistance of two of their biggest supporters. And if anyone doesn't want a Hekarti-dedicated Waystone, they can just refuse the assistance and get someone else to help build one. Win-win for everyone.

But this isn't an ideal world, is it? That example Plan would likely step on someone's toes, wouldn't it? Because that's the downside to these choices: Even the least of them means House Tindomiel is imposing itself on the entirety of Laurelorn. The line here isn't what House Tindomiel considers unreasonable, or even what Mathilde would think unreasonable. It's what Laurelorn at large will think. It's how The Empire, or Kislev will react. We're making a choice for entire nation states on behalf of a single rather-small Cult.

The deal would be completely unreasonable on the face of it for many, many organizations and heads of state, and if House Tinomiel can't see that, well, bully for them.
 
Nerdasaurus Rex said:
And finally, "right of first refusal". How many can they build at once? 5? 10? 100? Sooner or later, they'll run out of resources, or have their priests stretched too thin, and then we have to find another group to build waystones for us. And what price will they charge for the privilege, I wonder?
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I agree with most of your post, but I actually think that most polities that want a waystone are willing to pay quite a lot. So if it is in any way possible to do without multiwind, elven casters the colleges / cults that are able to build them would love the chance to get that sweet Kislev/Sylvanian /Dwarven/Bretonnian gold and the rep for pushing back chaos. Even if we need Elves, the amount of goodwill and cash they would get from the construction might convince them to do it anyways.

Boney said:
"And everyone comes running with promises. Well, here is Kislev's promise. You say there might be ways to push back Dewastacja? Restore Praag? Push back Troll Country? I say: to make this happen, all of Kislev will move mountains. You need gold? Kislev has gold. You need Ice Witch? They want make friends with me after father ignores them, they want me to take Ice Witch wife, I can make them cooperate. The Hag Witches? The kossars know they are mine, you can have Hag Witches.
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Waystones are really valuable, I have no doubt that Tindomiel will earn a lot of gold and reputation should they get the right of first refusal. (If the project succeeds in the first place, but if it doesn't their corporation is literally free for us.)
 
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[X] [HEDGEWISE] Discreetly
[X] [HEDGEWISE] Secretly
[X][HOUSE] Yes
[X] Plan Discretion Is The Watchword
[X] Plan: Local Security
[x] Plan how many people can actually read elf anyways?
 
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[X] [HOUSE] Yes
[X] Plan how many people can actually read elf anyways?
[X] Plan Discretion Is The Watchword
 
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[x] [HEDGEWISE] Discreetly

Codex said:
Considering Mathilde's tendency to go around riding her horse wearing her robes and Witch Hunter hat and how decidedly unsubtle she typically is in her goings on, and the fact that she lives in a fancy tower atop a damn mountain, I think it's safe to say that she's closer to the Dark Lady of Nuln.
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Dammerlichtreiter translates to "Rider of Twilight", doesn't it? That's close enough to "Dark Lady."
 
Mhm, thinking on it I remember it being said by boney i believe human's worshipping elven god's ussualy go bad.

Is such the same for Halfling's? Granted they aren't as wide spread as humans and seem to be a much more humbler race but they even have their own military force, mafia advocates for their rights, and I believe witch hunter's to protect themselves when neccesery so thinking on it maybe we could hire the house tindle to build Hekarti waystone shrines in the moot if they ever want any for some magic to help them or whatnot.

maybe see what happens to the odd human who becomes a worshippor of Hekarti through mootland's temple while travelling their and the local halfling population. See if human's really do go bad when worshipping elven gods and if so at least not in a human dominated area as the fire's of religions can burn quite fast and would be a learning experience for the elven priests on what to and not to teach humans about Hekarti or abandon the idea all together.

Colleges are a bit stretched so if their going to build some i would think they would prioritze Sylvania or whatnot.

Interested to see the hubhub about other races not worshipping elven god's since they go to deep into it usually but halfling's seem to be a simple people so maybe their different
 
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Raydom said:
Mhm, thinking on it I remember it being said by boney i believe human's worshipping elven god's ussualy go bad.
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It is not the human worship of an elven god, we have reason to believe that Ranald is Loec and that is fine, it is the human worship of a god as the elves do, by trying to live in imitation to them. Humans tend to get attached to their gods and they ar mutable in body and soul in a way elves are not so that makes trouble. To borrow a 40K term, all human worshipers the elf way become 'Lost on the Path of X'.
 
Raydom said:
Mhm, thinking on it I remember it being said by boney i believe human's worshipping elven god's ussualy go bad.
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I'm not so sure if he said that himself or if you're remembering Asarnil's often quoted line:
Boney said:
"The Cytharai represent the world as it is now. The Cadai represent what we strive to make it. To embrace one while ignoring the other leads to either depravity or derangement. So we recognize Khaine just as we recognize that the world contains violence and hatred, but anyone who pays attention to only that facet of life is doomed. It is no wonder that human worship of Him goes poorly."
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He was specifically speaking of Khaine's worship. Asarnil, at least, believes that humans worship a great many of the Elven gods in other guises.
 
Raydom said:
Mhm, thinking on it I remember it being said by boney i believe human's worshipping elven god's ussualy go bad.

Is such the same for Halfling's? Granted they aren't as wide spread as humans and seem to be a much more humbler race but they even have their own military force, mafia advocates for their rights, and I believe witch hunter's to protect themselves when neccesery so thinking on it maybe we could hire the house tindle to build Hekarti waystone shrines in the moot if they ever want any for some magic to help them or whatnot.

maybe see what happens to the odd human who becomes a worshippor of Hekarti through mootland's temple while travelling their and the local halfling population. See if human's really do go bad when worshipping elven gods and if so at least not in a human dominated area as the fire's of religions can burn quite fast and would be a learning experience for the elven priests on what to and not to teach humans about Hekarti or abandon the idea all together.

Colleges are a bit stretched so if their going to build some i would think they would prioritze Sylvania or whatnot.

Interested to see the hubhub about other races not worshipping elven god's since they go to deep into it usually but halfling's seem to be a simple people so maybe their different
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Well, of all races Halflings tend to be the least reverent. So I don't think they'd fall into the same pitfalls that humans do.
 
TreP said:
Imagine, you are a dwarf. Some kind of important one. You are aware of the Project, and you know that dwarfs participating too. Then, after some time, you hear that project was successful. You celebrate. And then you get news, that you can't order your dwarfly-built shiny new Waystones in your home, because Mathilde promised it to some Elves. Worse, they will depict it with symbols of one of their Goddes and will stuck it right on top of your mountain.

I'm oversimplifying this of course, but the point is that Elves demand something we have no right to give them. Not without major consequences.
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I agree. The dwarves must be the one to construct the Wind-based portions of the waystones. Probably get the Dark Lands dwarves to do it since they have the most experience manipulating the Winds of Magic.
 
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