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- a place without enough snow
[X] Plan Disregard WEBMAT, Acquire AP
Warhammer Fantasy: Divided Loyalties - an Advisor's Quest
- Thread starter Boney
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- Fantasy Users' Choice!
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- warhammer warhammer fantasy fantasy be gay do crimes (gay) female protagonist pansexual protagonist ck2 quest divided loyalties mountain vietnam ranald is real this is a dwarf quest (dwarfs) this is maybe an elf quest this is not a vampire quest this is not an empire quest try it and find out open voting
Voted best in category in the Users' Choice awards.
I mean from the perspective of this being a thing that takes time and time being a limited resource it does not really matter if Mathilde has fun unraveling the mystery or not, it is still inconvenient when it did not have to be. To quote Napoleon ask me for anything but time.
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I would doubt that research inclined hedgewise automatically go to the Colleges. Like, uh, I suspect that a lot of Hedgewise are going to be attached to their own culture and friend and family, and have their own ideas about what worthwhile areas to research are, and might not be especially inclined to go to the high-and-mighty Colleges that support the Empire that is trying to murder your community.
Maybe research inclined hedgewise would be more likely to join up with the Colleges than others, but honestly, if Mathilde was Hedgewise, I strongly doubt she would leave behind the Hedgewise to join the Colleges, even in a hypothetical route where she got much more into research.
This is how they characterized what they thought likely consequences would be
Could the groups you named there cause a huge threat to Mathilde, very unlikely. Could they take note of this and if they get a chance to, use it to help create a hassle for her in the future? Quite plausible. So I don't think their claim was a particularly huge reach.
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We didn't need "strong evidence" to do any of our other recruiting actions. We were even told by Paranoth outright that he believed the Jade College didn't have anything to offer except to give the false impression of knowledge, not any concrete or useful secrets. And my point about the Hedgewise's ritual is that it's a unique form of magic that Mathilde would struggle to replicate; not to say that specific spell is useful, but rather the paradigm that created it.
Let me be a bit more clear: The argument that recruiting the Hedgewise would be useless isn't an argument to postpone recruiting them. It's an argument to never recruit them at all. And since recruiting the Hedgewise is synonymous with using the Father side of the coin, I think it's blatantly obvious why some people are advancing said argument.
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I believe this was already largely addressed, at least in terms of scrutiny from our partners:
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I agree that argument is flawed, even if I also agree with the particular end it's going towards right now (that we shouldn't recruit the Hedgewise RIGHT NOW, as opposed to next turn). I believe that they do have something of value to contribute, and that the political issues caused by bringing them in won't be bad enough to really be of note.
It's just that I think it's better to double down and get a good base out of what we have right now, than to reach even further and risk having everything be set on a shaky foundation out of a badly placed 19 or something.
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Yes, we didn't have strong evidence then. We also didn't have them competing with laying the foundations. The scenarios are not at all equivalent.
There are many paradigms, having a different paradigm is not a guarantee of useful contributions.
Very few people are saying the Hedgewise are guaranteed to be useless, they're saying they're not guaranteed to be useful, and as such it doesn't make sense to pass on a guaranteed effective boost this turn.
Recruiting them is also not at all a synonym for using the father, and I have no idea why you would think so, the waystones are not the end all be all of the quest. We could easily interact with them in another context.
If they want to hassle and obstruct Mathilde, they already have plenty of material. Her relationship with the late Van Hal and his daughter, her faith in Ranald, her mishandling of the Wurtbad city watch, the papers on dark magic she's written, her ownership of a trade company despite being under a vow of poverty.
And all of these have been vetted and approved by the Grey Order, who will have our back and protect us if anyone tries to start anything. That is literally why we had a meeting with Starke a few updates ago.
This is what happens when you try to obstruct a Lord Magister—the entire fucking college tells you to piss off.
I feel like you are accusing people of lying at this point or at least heavily implying it, but let me be clear.
I think that there is insufficient evidence of the great and urgent need of Hedgewise lore before the Foundation to vote for that while at the same time thinking it is worth going for it next turn. Hopefully that is succinct enough.
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I'm catching up on the thread but I wanted to point out an issue I had with claims similar to this:
On the flips side, I don't think criting on some rolls during the foundation action is going to open up options that are impossible to see later, it is about sharing knowledge, so crits aren't going to invent new knowledge that the participants bring. What I think crits may do is allow us to draw connections in understanding that save us future investigation actions. However because crits aren't guaranteed we really are betting on what helps the Waystone project more when we pick a coin face. I don't think The Gambler will have as much of an impact as bringing in the Hedgewise and therefore likely increasing the number of rolls on Laying the Foundations while brining in unique knowledge that likely can't be gained elsewhere.
(I'm not trying to call out @SuperSonicSound in particular, this post just succinctly captured the idea in an easily quotable way). Those claiming the Lay the Foundations action is vital to get correct the first time or claiming we can only do it once are missing the fact that it has been stated we may have to redo the action to incorporate new magical traditions, so we know we can fix any flaws later if we really need to. I am not going to claim that if we use The Gambler it won't make any difference to the outcome, and maybe reduce future actions we have to take to clarify elements of our framework, but we have WoQM that Matilde can't crit fail and cause an incident that wrecks the Project at the very beginning. If we somehow roll extraordinarily poorly and come away with an incomplete foundation we already know we can try again.
On the flips side, I don't think criting on some rolls during the foundation action is going to open up options that are impossible to see later, it is about sharing knowledge, so crits aren't going to invent new knowledge that the participants bring. What I think crits may do is allow us to draw connections in understanding that save us future investigation actions. However because crits aren't guaranteed we really are betting on what helps the Waystone project more when we pick a coin face. I don't think The Gambler will have as much of an impact as bringing in the Hedgewise and therefore likely increasing the number of rolls on Laying the Foundations while brining in unique knowledge that likely can't be gained elsewhere.
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- Netherlands
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We're a Grey Lady Magister. Knowing Things is our job.
And it would take a vast amount of political capital to pose any kind of threat to us with "i have a theory she breached the articles in order to find this person". To attack someone like Mathilde you're going to need something way more substantial than that.
I want to recruit the hedgewise I just think that it more important to have the gambler on the critical lay the foundation action than using the father to hopefully recruit the hegdewise who might worship one of Ranald daughters who then hopefully will send people to the project right away that they can send on the lay the foundation action and if not then we need to do something for them and they won't be able to help this turn on lay the foundation
My personal reason for preferring Fatherless is simple and unassailable 
I am already struggling to keep the names of all the recent additions to the cast straight, so I do not want to recruit too much more. The Hedgefolk are cool, but have become a victim of our Kislevite success.
I am already struggling to keep the names of all the recent additions to the cast straight, so I do not want to recruit too much more. The Hedgefolk are cool, but have become a victim of our Kislevite success.While we can certainly retake the foundation vote to integrate new paradigms I do not think we can do so to reintegrate paradigms that have already gone though th Foundation action
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Understandable- wait, what's that on your pfp? It looks like Nurgle somehow.My personal reason for preferring Fatherless is simple and unassailable
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- Earth
It's some kind of plant head with a bunch of flower buds.
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- New Brunswick, NJ
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So, to be maximally fair to the Lay the Foundations advocates, we don't need to redo the action to incorporate new magical traditions in general. Only if they bring in something revolutionary.
Totally revolutionary thing: redo the action. Just new stuff that fill in blanks we had: no need to retake the action.
I think it's Romanesco cauliflower.
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Different levers to use against someone will be more or less effective in different scenarios. The lever of bringing in the hedgewise isn't a hugely strong one, but it's stronger than all the ones you mention there except maybe the Ranald worship. I don't think it's all that likely it will result in much, and as such doesn't personally affect my voting behavior one way or the other. But completely dismissing the possibility that it could create a hassle in the future doesn't seem reasonable to me.
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Cauliflower is not much better than Nurgle to me
Joking aside, informative. I can always count on you for answering my useless questions.
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I'm not sure why you think that. I think it is extraordinarily likely. If the first meeting to try and create a useful framework that the participants can use to discuss ideas produces something that has clear holes, uncertainties, or edge cases, I would expect there to be investigation actions to clarify what is happening when those holes and edge cases are relevant so that there can be follow up discussions to clarify the framework using the new information. In my experience that is how most real world engineering and scientific discussions work: no mental model is ever just figured out the first time you sit down, and you come away with questions that you need to answer to clarify the model.
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This is fair, it may not be a redo of the Lay the Foundations action to fill the holes, it may be several follow up actions, and rolling better means we have to do fewer follow up actions. At least that is my expectation.
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I'm not "dismissing" the possibility, I've assessed it and determined that it is unlikely to significantly hinder or obstruct us.
In a vacuum, recruiting an illegal mage is bad. We are not in a vacuum. We are in a world where idealism has to take a back seat to practicalities, and if someone is upset at us because we hired an illegal mage there's not a lot they can do about it, because they either have more important things to be worried about, or are not important enough to deal with our many allies who will stonewall them for us.
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- Greece
You know what? Fuck you
Unties your vote
[X] Plan Disregard WEBMAT, Acquire AP
(Just in case, this is a meme, not me being aggressive)
Unties your vote
[X] Plan Disregard WEBMAT, Acquire AP
(Just in case, this is a meme, not me being aggressive)
Because it involves building a paradigm and those tend to have inertia once set especially when it involves old and cantankerous dwarfs and elves. I mean just imagine you finally managed to hammer together the heads of Thorek and the Grey Lords and then six months later you say 'right we are doing that all over again because I am feeling lucky his time, forget everything you concluded previously'. I do not think that is reasonable. Foundation actions are hard and likely to be really frustrating judging by how tense things were between Kragg and Algard back when they made the Eye.