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Boney has told us that from the outside we might not be able to tell the difference in a person's behaviour between the Father effecting them or not, as it might be indistinguishable from the level of respect a high ranking guest might receive.

That doesn't suggest they'll be volunteering incredibly valuable secrets in return for nothing.
What Boney said was in the context of visiting every female goddess cult in the Old World, which would've been short and simple visits in order to fit into the time schedule of a single AP. It wasn't in the context of trying to leverage a great deal of trust into volunteering incredibly valuable secrets.
 
I find the idea the the Hedgewise will just be willing to walk up to enemies who have the legal authority and capability to murder them and hope that everything will work out alright to be outright bewildering. I also seriously doubt the idea that the Father face of the coin will have some small and insignificant effect bizzare, we're seen the faces of the coin in action and they are all incredibely powerful when put to their specific uses.

I'll just say one last thing on the subject of "will the Hedgewise secrets be openly sold as Hedgewise secrets" thing:


The Hedgewise connections to the Grey Order is a very big secret. They are not just going to reveal it.

Calling the Light Order an enemy of the Hedgewise is vastly overstating things. When a Light mage meets one of the Blessed Few they do not call: Blood for the Blood God and call in the hangman, they would first try recruitment and then if that does not work call the authorities. More than that imagine you are Elise, a unrecognized magician from the deep wood shows up in Norland under elf protection and you really hate them. How do you then ensure they are killed?
 
I don't think volunteering incredibly valuable secrets in return for nothing is a normal showing of deferential respect to a VIP.

Exactly. And so I don't think the Father face would make them do so. Otherwise we could test to see if Goddesses were Ranald's Daughters by going around and asking their Cults them, and seeing if they volunteered the information, or if they bargained.
 
It's an investigation that I believe He could have cleared up, made unnecessary in a moment but chose not to. He still could. That's why it's pointless. I don't like being led around by the nose.

Ranald has been there from the start. These daughters haven't, I'm not invested in them.

Ranald has been keeping his family a secret for I don't know how long. Centuries? Millennia? Since the dawn of time? He clearly has a good reason to keep this relationship hidden and obscured—and yet he chose to trust us with this information anyway. That's our connection to this—a god trusts us with one of his mostly closely kept secrets.

During the vote about sacrificing Divine AV research, a consistent and strong line of argument was made that keeping the option of doing said research was unacceptable because it might distract us from the Waystone Project, that we might dilute our focus and spend resources on the former that was better spent on the latter.

As a result, arguments that we should now spend resources on following up on the sacrifice are quite frustrating.

Boney has been consistent throughout the entire quest that everything will result in an AP commitment. Researching artefacts, going on adventures, making allies, exploring mysteries etc. Feel free to vote against something because you don't want to commit AP to that specific thing, but a vote for a thing is a declaration that the thread wants to commit more AP to that thing. The thread voted for Faith, and now we have a bunch of leads into developing our faith with our God and His family. And it's not wrong for the people like myself to want to follow those leads either.
 
The Protector has no upper limit on the amount of people it can affect. It's influenced an entire karak, so we're already at a massive demonstration of power and there's no indication that was even close to its maximum strength. I don't believe at all that the Father would be weaker than the Protector.
True, but it doesn't solve the meta problem, or the fact that if the Lady wanted Ranald to be popular she would say so.
 
Boney has been consistent throughout the entire quest that everything will result in an AP commitment. Researching artefacts, going on adventures, making allies, exploring mysteries etc. Feel free to vote against something because you don't want to commit AP to that specific thing, but a vote for a thing is a declaration that the thread wants to commit more AP to that thing. The thread voted for Faith, and now we have a bunch of leads into developing our faith with our God and His family. And it's not wrong for the people like myself to want to follow those leads either.

The argument wasn't that people wanted to commit resources to Faith and not commit resources to Science.

It was a claim that they didn't want to commit resources to either Faith or Science, and that Faith wouldn't require resource commitment but that Science would keep the option to invest resources open.

Reminding people that this was a major justification for the Faith option is fair enough.
 
Ranald has been keeping his family a secret for I don't know how long. Centuries? Millennia? Since the dawn of time? He clearly has a good reason to keep this relationship hidden and obscured—and yet he chose to trust us with this information anyway. That's our connection to this—a god trusts us with one of his mostly closely kept secrets.
Then why do it this half-assed way? "Oh hoho I have a secret, here's a clue, and a tool that you can wave at disparate groups to discover it, but noooo I won't just tell you who."
We're damn busy, trying to set up a project with an outside chance of preventing the world falling to 'too much magic' and Chaos. We don't need sidetracking.
Keep your secret, or don't. I don't appreciate this half-reveal with attached sidequest.
 
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The argument wasn't that people wanted to commit resources to Faith and not commit resources to Science.

It was a claim that they didn't want to commit resources to either Faith or Science, and that Faith wouldn't require resource commitment but that Science would keep the option to invest resources open.

Reminding people that this was a major justification for the Faith option is fair enough.

If people didn't want to pursue faith or truth, then they should have voted for prudence instead.

[ ] Prudence
Break the crystal, burn your notes, and never again allow the Vitae to touch the Divine.

There was an option right there for "zero AP investment", and was an absolutely valid choice.
 
True, but it doesn't solve the meta problem, or the fact that if the Lady wanted Ranald to be popular she would say so.
Boney has already given us an artefact capable of affecting the whole world, and has in fact played out it affecting an entire karak. In terms of meta, I don't see why he'd be unwilling to let the Father have a maximum effect that's much smaller than what the Protector's capable of.
 
The Hedgewise might also consider that Mathilde being declared trushworthy by their patron goddess is not in logical conflict with Mathilde being mistaken about the outcome of their involvement in the project being beneficial or her ability to shelter them from consequences.
 
The argument wasn't that people wanted to commit resources to Faith and not commit resources to Science.

It was a claim that they didn't want to commit resources to either Faith or Science, and that Faith wouldn't require resource commitment but that Science would keep the option to invest resources open.

Reminding people that this was a major justification for the Faith option is fair enough.
There was an option right there for "zero AP investment", and was an absolutely valid choice.
It wasn't just an OoC consideration , it was such a big part of the argument that in the update that followed it was one of the main reasons Mathilde had for not pursuing the science option:
You are one person. You only have so many hours in the day and days in the week. Spreading yourself even thinner than you already are jeopardizes all you are already doing, and threatens to do so even more if your ambitions are discovered.
 
Boney has already given us an artefact capable of affecting the whole world, and has in fact played out it affecting an entire karak. In terms of meta, I don't see why he'd be unwilling to let the Father have a maximum effect that's much smaller than what the Protector's capable of.
A karak isn't an entire country tho. And we're speaking about the entire ruling class of that country suddenly trusting us wholeheartedly.
 
True, but it doesn't solve the meta problem, or the fact that if the Lady wanted Ranald to be popular she would say so.

Well, one of the unfortunate potential implications of the Father side of the Coin is that the Goddesses in question don't get a choice in the matter. When Mathilde turns the Coin to that face their father makes them think and feel what he wants them to whether or not they agree,

I'm sure Boney would never do this, but if it works like a straight forward reading of it, it does make me wonder what happens when the Coin is moved to another face afterwards. Is a supernatural compulsion to trust Mathilde removed, and is this something that they could notice in retrospect? If the Lady is one of the Daughters, and isn't on friendly terms with Her Father, suddenly realising he'd compelled you and your own followers to like and help one of his mortal chosen for the last few months is something that might provoke a response involving Grail Kinght and Prophetess hit squads to make sure it can't happen again.

I'm reminded of discussions about using the Deceiver face of the Coin on the Grey College, and Mathilde's peers retrospectively second guessing themselves and questioning why they believed what she said without question.

Now, there are clearly some lingering effects of using the Coin, but they're natural, people keep believing what the Protector made them believe, but presumably without the Protector face still in place they're capable of changing their mind if they receive new information.

As I say; I don't think Boney would do so, but if the Lady is a Daughter using the Father face might be a case of riding a tiger. Once you've mounted the tiger it's very hard to dismount without being eaten.
 
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Looking at it from the other side, let's assume for a moment that the Hedgewise are indeed terrified of the Light Order and here comes Mathilde rolling up to them and proposing that they be part of the project... but they have to tell her all her secrets so they can pretend they are all from the Grey Order. I don't know about you but if I were the hypothetical scared Hedgewise I would wonder if the reason Elise was there was to scare me into handing over more lore than the Grey Order has. Keep in mind that as far as we know the only point of contact with the Hedgewise is Kurtis and he is playing double agent games and now here comes this other LM whom they know nothing about saying 'tell me everything you know about these here magic stones that you have never told my order before'.

When Max went into the Library of the Grey Order under the authority of a Lady Magister he did not find the Big Book of Hedwise Waystone Secrets (Abridged) so we can now look for the full version. As far as we know there is no Hedgewise lore on the matter in the possession of the Grey Order. Assuming that exists maybe they have a reason not to give it to us that goes beyond just a general lack of trust that can be fixed with a divine sign.
 
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One point about the Protector—it doesn't manipulate, trick or otherwise convince people, it just creates irrefutable evidence that the bearer selflessly risked their life to protect others. People then believe this evidence for the same reason I believe the sky is blue—because the evidence is, well, evident.

I suspect the Father works in a similar way—rather than brainwashing people into trusting Mathilde, it just creates irrefutable evidence that she is trustworthy.
 
One point about the Protector—it doesn't manipulate, trick or otherwise convince people, it just creates irrefutable evidence that the bearer selflessly risked their life to protect others. People then believe this evidence for the same reason I believe the sky is blue—because the evidence is, well, evident.

I suspect the Father works in a similar way—rather than brainwashing people into trusting Mathilde, it just creates irrefutable evidence that she is trustworthy.

As far as I can tell it does manipulate, you can do things for the most selfish reasons in the world and it will still make your beneficiaries think you were selfless.

So for instance we could kill the warriors of one Skavan clan benefiting another Skaven clan and the latter would think we are insane and doing it for them and not for ourselves.
 
The Hedgewise might also consider that Mathilde being declared trushworthy by their patron goddess is not in logical conflict with Mathilde being mistaken about the outcome of their involvement in the project being beneficial or her ability to shelter them from consequences.

Yeah, it's why I said it's important to know what they will have faith and trust in Mathilde about.

They can trust that she'll keep the secret about who they worship or even trust that she'll not deliberately try to harm them.

That doesn't mean they'll trust her judgement more than they trust their own. Trust isn't an absolute, or a blank check. There're plenty of people I'd say I trust (with various things) but I wouldn't give any of them power of attorney over all my assets and tell them all my secrets.

The way I see it, the Father gives us an entry ticket to what are possibly are probably very secretive, very cautious inner circles of mystery cults, as some one who isn't trusted wouldn't even get their foot in the door. Once we're inside though, we have to proceed on our own merits. I think that they'd treat us like the other Colleges treat Mathilde. They have a baseline of trust and faith that she's on the level and that as a Lady Magister she's acting in the best interests of the Empire, which are generally aligned with their own interests. However they almost certainly keep secrets from and favour trade with each other, as the Lord and Lady Magisters of the Colleges do,

Paranoth and Mira demonstrated significant trust and faith in both Mathilde's discretion and abilities. However, they still made her pay for their help.

One point about the Protector—it doesn't manipulate, trick or otherwise convince people, it just creates irrefutable evidence that the bearer selflessly risked their life to protect others. People then believe this evidence for the same reason I believe the sky is blue—because the evidence is, well, evident.

I suspect the Father works in a similar way—rather than brainwashing people into trusting Mathilde, it just creates irrefutable evidence that she is trustworthy.

Boney said:

How do you distinguish supernaturally-induced trust from respectful deference paid to a VIP visitor?

The trust the Father produces is supernaturally induced. That doesn't sound like it's indirectly created by manufacturing evidence.

I think the Protector is the same. It doesn't manipulate or trick either. It just reaches into the target's mind and supernaturally induces the knowledge of Mathilde's action and the belief that it was selfless.
 
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Calling the Light Order an enemy of the Hedgewise is vastly overstating things. When a Light mage meets one of the Blessed Few they do not call: Blood for the Blood God and call in the hangman, they would first try recruitment and then if that does not work call the authorities. More than that imagine you are Elise, a unrecognized magician from the deep wood shows up in Norland under elf protection and you really hate them. How do you then ensure they are killed?
The Colleges recruit from the Hedgewise on pain of death. Responding in the negative to a recruitment offer from the Colleges leads to the Hedgewise being killed. Those authorities that the Colleges call are Witch Hunters and they burn the Hedgewise, and there is no need for the wizards of the Colleges to call for them because they have the authority to kill them on their own, which they sometimes do. Of course they consider the Colleges their enemies. What even is this argument?

This is exhausting. The vote is fraying my nerves enough already, I don't need this interminable argument to add to it. I'll tell you what: right now it's the holidays and I don't want to ping Boney, but as soon as we get an indication that he's more or less free (I think he said he'll be back by Tuesday?) we can ask him about the Hedgewise relations with the Colleges and until then we say nothing more on this. Deal?
 
The Colleges recruit from the Hedgewise on pain of death. Responding in the negative to a recruitment offer from the Colleges leads to the Hedgewise being killed. Those authorities that the Colleges call are Witch Hunters and they burn the Hedgewise, and there is no need for the wizards of the Colleges to call for them because they have the authority to kill them on their own, which they sometimes do. Of course they consider the Colleges their enemies. What even is this argument?

This is exhausting. The vote is fraying my nerves enough already, I don't need this interminable argument to add to it. I'll tell you what: right now it's the holidays and I don't want to ping Boney, but as soon as we get an indication that he's more or less free (I think he said he'll be back by Tuesday?) we can ask him about the Hedgewise relations with the Colleges and until then we say nothing more on this. Deal?

I mean... it is kind of relevant to the present vote, I am sorry this is stressful for you but it does not seem reasonable to me to shut down a line of relevant argument in the middle of the vote is pertains to. People are voting on this right now and it is unlikely they will check back on Tuesday to change their votes.

For the sake of brevity let me summarize my points:
  1. It is rare for the Hedgewise to get in the sights of the Light Order as they do not summon daemons or raise armies of the dead as well as living well away from urban centers
  2. The Hedgewise representative would have what amounts to diplomatic immunity in Laurelorn which depending on their inclination they would leverage to either thumb their nose up at the lights or try to reach some kind of informal understanding with the Lights and Jades, something they cannot do if we present all their lore as our own
  3. It would be nigh impossible for Elise to leverage the presence of one of the Hedgewise in Laurelorn into hurting them once they are out of the woods, she cannot trail them and has no agents in the forest
  4. The lore we are looking for, if it exists must be very closely held we we have found no trace of it in Grey Order records. We found more indication of Druid secrets in the library of the Jades and we are not a Jade.
 
I mean... it is kind of relevant to the present vote, I am sorry this is stressful for you but it does not seem reasonable to me to shut down a line of relevant argument in the middle of the vote is pertains to. People are voting on this right now and it is unlikely they will check back on Tuesday to change their votes.

For the sake of brevity let me summarize my points:
  1. It is rare for the Hedgewise to get in the sights of the Light Order as they do not summon daemons or raise armies of the dead as well as living well away from urban centers
  2. The Hedgewise representative would have what amounts to diplomatic immunity in Laurelorn which depending on their inclination they would leverage to either thumb their nose up at the lights or try to reach some kind of informal understanding with the Lights and Jades, something they cannot do if we present all their lore as our own
  3. It would be nigh impossible for Elise to leverage the presence of one of the Hedgewise in Laurelorn into hurting them once they are out of the woods, she cannot trail them and has no agents in the forest
  4. The lore we are looking for, if it exists must be very closely held we we have found no trace of it in Grey Order records. We found more indication of Druid secrets in the library of the Jades and we are not a Jade.
Yeah, ok, let's not wait for an objective call from the QM and instead keep going in circles, that sounds super productive.
  1. This has nothing to do with whether they consider the Light Order their enemy. "They only sometimes press us into the service of their organization on pain of death" does not mean they aren't enemies. It is absurd to think that it does.
  2. I gave a quote last page: The Hedgewise connections with the Grey Order are such a closely guarded secret that the Grey Order will kill to keep it a secret. No, they are not going to just come out and say that they have an understanding with the Grey College, if for no reason other than the fact that the Grey Order really wouldn't want them to and they really wouldn't want to lose their one ally in the Colleges (but to be clear, they wouldn't want to do this, because they don't want to die).
  3. You're not just saying that the Porter of the Light Order - the Order that specializes in seeing through magical disguises and hunting down cultists - could not track down an unscantioned magic user in Nordland after seeing him in another part of Nordland. You're also saying that the Hedgewise will be confidient enough in that to literally bet their life on it. That they would want to present themselves to the people who can snuff them out at any time if they find them.
  4. We have gone over this before: there is no trace of any Hedgewise lore in the Grey Order, and yet Hedgewise lore nonetheless exists. There could be any number of reasons why there are no records of it in the hands of the Grey Order but "there isn't anything there" is not one of them.
 
The Colleges of Magic are legally obligated to track down and either recruit or report to the Templars all unsanctioned magic users in the Empire. This would include the Hedgewise. However, they are also legally obligated to seek out and destroy all magical and slash or chaotic threats to the Empire, and this outweighs all other obligations. Until all Beastmen, all Chaos worshipers, all Necromancers, all Vampires, all Skaven, all Daemons, all Chaos gods, all Chaos Dwarves, and Nagash are all dead, it is trivially easy for any Wizard to justify not tracking down some backwoods Hedge Wizard they may meet while on other business in Laurelorn.
 
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