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Warhammer Fantasy: Divided Loyalties - an Advisor's Quest

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Actually, if it was some other turn, I could be fine with using Father on a single target. It's just that with the first Foundations of all things happening now that I'd prefer extra Father efficiency or Gambler.
 
picklepikkl said:
Given that the Damsels want hard results in the form of either "solving their Iron Orc problem" or "tangible progress on the Waystones" before they can be recruited, that we can't even start real work on the Waystones until next turn, and that their Iron Orc problem sounds like a much bigger deal than can be cleared up in a single AP, I am unconvinced that we will be getting to them any time soon, and with no other strong contenders for the Daughters of Ranald that I've seen anyone argue for, if we insist on using the Father on multiple options in a single turn we're not going to be doing it for a long time, if ever, and that means this will be a sore point in the thread for RL months. So I'd much rather get it over with and resolve the question of Halétha (which I think is overwhelmingly likely) this turn rather than wait for the "efficient" chance to double up and deal with this argument resurfacing every turn from here on out.

Anyway, I've dropped my vote for the Fatherless variant of my plan now that the vote's been open almost 48 hours and those are in the lead, since I prefer using the Father. I wasn't expecting the Father to be this popular, but since it is I guess I'll actively throw my support behind it.
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I like the father plan for a few reasons.
A) It might get us the Hedgewise for free (always good if you can save ap)
B) this turn will have us meet a plethora of people who might be part of one of the daughters cults (the laying of the foundations, the acquiring of librarians general travel stuff.)
C) it gives us a baseline for how it works (if it works with Haletha, which I strongly suspect)
D) it finally gets that topic to a point of something happening.
 
While I understand the urge to fit in personal AP, I'm still going to push for Windherding and using WEB-MAT for general purposes. If we need to not WEB-MAT that's fine, but using precisely one action in WEB-MAT feels like a waste.

[X] Plan: No Recruitment

[X] Plan: No Branarhune
-[X] One Overwork Action
-[X] COIN: The Father
-[X] WEB-MAT: Hire someone as a full-time Gyrocopter pilot (Adela)
-[X] WEB-MAT: Hunt an apparition with a member of WEB-MAT (Johann, Red Rider).
-[X] EGRIMM: Attempt a Windherder enchantment with Egrimm (Ring of Sudden Dawn, Take No Heed/Radiant Gaze)
-[X] Lay the foundations: work with the current members of WEB-MAT and the Waystone Project to build a single unified framework for understanding the Waystones.
-[X] Attempt to bring a non-Order magical tradition into the Waystone Project (Nordlander Haléthan Hedgewise)
-[X] Attempt to bring a Major House or Ward into the Waystone Project (Tindomiel)
-[X] Investigate how the Vitae reacts to a power stone.
-[X] EIC: Have the Hochlander set up a shadow headquarters for the EIC in the Sunken Palace.
-[X] KAU: Decide who your library staff will consist of, and go about recruiting them.
-[X] SERENITY: Write a book: Windsoak Mushrooms (1/2)
 
[X] Plan Disregard WEBMAT, Acquire AP

I've mostly sat out this latest round of voting, since I've been busy with other things and I felt that @picklepikkl had things well in hand, but since it looks like the vote is actually pretty close I might as well try to persuade people to go for my preferred option. I think that including the Hedgewise from the beginning is just plainly superior to trying to get them involved later - the more knowledge Mathilde can accumulate from disparate human magical traditions, the better her bargaining position will be among the elves and dwarves. We're about to do some high-stakes bluffing, and while yes, "just be lucky lol" is one way of winning at poker - and that's what the Gambler provides - it's far more reliable to simply stack the deck to begin with.

So that's the argument from practicality - I think that having the Hedgewise involved early is simply superior mechanically to using the Gambler, and think that giving them respect will help foster good relations between the Hedgewise and the Grey College in a way that won't necessarily end with "and then this cultural group was driven to extinction".

But there's a more narrative side of things that makes me prefer the Father as well. I was one of the major proponents of keeping Ranald's trust when it came to AV's implications regarding divinities, and as such I've been very hyped to finally get some leads on advancing the Ranald-as-Father storyline. As I'm sure @mathymancer can attest, I've been pretty involved in the speculation regarding who the daughters might be. :V So getting to see the father in action will be quite nice - especially because we're going to be interacting with quite a few groups over this coming update, so we can actually get quite a lot of the lower-likelyhood candidates checked off the list.
 
[X] Plan Disregard WEBMAT, Acquire AP

Either way we're dunking a power stone in Vitae, so I'm happy. :V

(okay, maybe not so potentially energetically and more scientifically methodically, but still.)
 
Ok so I am thinking if we are going to recruit we use the Father coin. The thing is if we use that is potentially less AP used later to buy there support. If it pans out and the hedgewise react to the coin that is less we have to do to get them on board since they will trust Mathilde. Also I think I am hesitant that the Hedgewise will help out lay the foundations in the same turn if they do not trust Mathilde.
 
[X] Plan Disregard WEBMAT, Acquire AP

Mhm, just suggesting idea's but perhaps once the Hochlander has the whole shadow quarters working we could send agents to monitor the ork problem in Brettonia to see what we might want to prepare for the trip their in Carcasonna to see the bogaloo about them seeing mysterious chaos orks that appear only to them. Not expecting much but then again were setting up shop in Ranalds holy place and I recall a thief stole Vlad's immortality ring so maybe a lucky spy could find something.

doubt it's solvable in one AP but maybe try to do protector on a turn with helping the damsels out or scope the situation with them as well as maybe do murder vacation with Naggaroth to try and earn some favours from em or something.

Or perhaps scope out female deities like some other person said with the the father side coin on, first thought would be the Brettonia goddess to see which is better, using protector or the father side of the coin and then from their whoever else Goddess we may think of.
 
I think it's worth noting that, as good and faithful as the gambler has been, the other sides have been nigh quest-defining nearly every time they were used for something applicable.

I also think it's worth noting that, when trying to reconcile so many magical traditions that each do things the others consider impossible, the help of people whose power lay in exploiting things that straddle and defy categorization is...

Well, the implication is obvious, right? It's hard to imagine how a couple +20s could possibly measure up to the help of the hedgewise when the project practically revolves around their philosophy's specialty.

We're doing foundation this turn, so we can't wait on the recruitment, so we need the father. Simple as.
 
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Prime 2.0 said:
I also think it's worth noting that, when trying to reconcile so many magical traditions that each do things the others consider impossible, the help of people whose power lay in exploiting things that straddle and defy categorization is...

Well, the implication is obvious, right? It's hard to imagine how a couple +20s could possibly measure up to the help of the hedgewise when the project practically revolves around their philosophy's specialty.
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Are the Hedgewise known for their diplomatic capabilities and story of cooperation with widely different magical traditions? They barely interact with the outside world, their magic doesn't change that, so I don't see how they could help us deal with several big egos and conflicting interests more than any random tradition. They're not magically going to be perfect diplomats, even the grey order must have special training for that. And they won't be able to understand other traditions better or worse than us.
Prime 2.0 said:
We're doing foundation this turn, so we can't wait on the recruitment, so we need the father. Simple as.
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We can always add more people later and the Hedgewise aren't particularly known for interacting with Waystones so they're not as important as other traditions.
 
DragonParadox said:
Yeah, but the thing is this is not her lore and neither will the Hedgewise be, it is just adding another player to the table, they too are going to want to give as little as they can while taking all they can get at least to start to, one more ball to juggle. About the only people I do not expect to have to manage like that are the dwarfs because they are bad at poker.I do not think Mathilde knows anything about the Hedgewise, for whatever reason their magic confuses her as much as Hag magic does, as seen in text so this feels to me more than a bit forced.
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And Egrimm isn't a Nehekharan priest but that won't stop him from bringing that lore as his Order's contribution - which is fair enough because his Order has access to them, what does it matter that they didn't invent them? No, Mathilde doesn't know Hedgewise lore, because we haven't recruited them yet. Once we do their secrets will be sold as Grey Order secrets, because the Hedgefolk relations with the Grey Order are a closely guarded secret so in all likelihood the Hedgewise contribution to the project will be either in the form of "Magister Grey" or the Hedgewise just straight up telling their secrets to Mathilde. The latter possibilty is actually quite possible due to the Father, and it is also due to the Father that the Hedgewise are probably not going to play games and keep their cards close to their chests, as while they'll be guarded around the other contributors Mathilde will have their full trust and faith.

kingreaper said:
While I understand the urge to fit in personal AP, I'm still going to push for Windherding and using WEB-MAT for general purposes. If we need to not WEB-MAT that's fine, but using precisely one action in WEB-MAT feels like a waste.
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One WEB-MAT action is exactly as wasteful as zero WEB-MAT actions, as in both cases you don't get the benefit of the free WEB-MAT action. I agree that it feels wasteful because 'if only we thought of just one more WEB-MAT action' but it really isn't. But wanting Windherding is fair and once I post this I'll go and add an approval vote for your plan.

Redshirt Army said:
As I'm sure @mathymancer can attest, I've been pretty involved in the speculation regarding who the daughters might be. :V
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One of the true luminaries of our age.
 
Concerning the Father and the Hedgewise, there's another factor in play. There's a non-negligible possibility that Haletha isn't a Daughter, but just a random goddess. Sure, the arguments make sense, but nothing is proven. If it was another turn I'd be willing to take the risk of the Coin doing nothing, but this turn will be the foundational moment of the WP, the thing on which everything else will be build. Sure, we won't epically fail it, but having the best possible beginning is important.

If we use the Gambler this turn, we have a bigger risk of the beginning of the WP being less than optimal. If the Father is used this turn and Haletha is a Daughter, we will gain another magical tradition very-well disposed towards us and still carry the risk of a suboptimal beginning. If the Father has no effect this turn, we will (maybe) gain a magical tradition more or less neutral to us for a higher price and a potentially suboptimal beginning.
 
K von Carstein said:
There's a non-negligible possibility that Haletha isn't a Daughter, but just a random goddess. Sure, the arguments make sense, but nothing is proven.
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IIRC there was a minor IC hint that implied Haletha as being a daughter, I'll try to remember where, but if someone remembers I'll be thankful.

So while nothing is definitively proven, the theory isn't wholly built off OOC speculation.

Edit: Here
Boney said:
You gingerly take the bone, and you're as ready to flinch back with your mystic senses if you find anything untoward as your fingers are if they detect any scrap of remaining flesh. But though the bone thrums with energy, it's an energy you're unable to directly perceive. It seems like a faint star that seems clearly visible from the corner of your eye but disappears if you look directly at it. But despite its elusiveness there's a familiarity to its energies, one that would feel oddly comfortable to you if you weren't immediately suspicious of that feeling of comfort.
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It's a minor hint since it isn't declarative, but it's heavy enough to lean towards it.
 
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[x] Plan Disregard WEBMAT, Acquire AP (Fatherless)
- [x] One Overwork Action
- [x] WEB-MAT: Hire someone as a full-time Gyrocopter pilot (Adela)
- [x] Lay the foundations: work with the current members of WEB-MAT and the Waystone Project to build a single unified framework for understanding the Waystones.
-- [x] COIN: The Gambler
- [x] Attempt to bring a Major House or Ward into the Waystone Project (Tindomiel)
- [x] Branulhune's ability to disappear and reappear at a thought allows entirely new forms of combat. Continue to work on them.
- [x] Study an artefact: Ghyran Nut
-- [x] With Panoramia
- [x] Investigate how the Vitae reacts to a power stone.
- [x] EIC: Have the Hochlander set up a shadow headquarters for the EIC in the Sunken Palace.
- [x] KAU: Decide who your library staff will consist of, and go about recruiting them.
- [x] SERENITY: Write a book: Windsoak Mushrooms (1/2)
 
StormySky said:
Because taking Father and then only testing it on like one potential target on a turn with a critical action we really want to do well with is an inefficient use of Coin face allocation. If we're using the Father, can we at least have another viable target?
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There's that and you know laying the foundation should take priority over literally everything as we only get the chance to do it once.
 
mathymancer said:
And Egrimm isn't a Nehekharan priest but that won't stop him from bringing that lore as his Order's contribution - which is fair enough because his Order has access to them, what does it matter that they didn't invent them? No, Mathilde doesn't know Hedgewise lore, because we haven't recruited them yet. Once we do their secrets will be sold as Grey Order secrets, because the Hedgefolk relations with the Grey Order are a closely guarded secret so in all likelihood the Hedgewise contribution to the project will be either in the form of "Magister Grey" or the Hedgewise just straight up telling their secrets to Mathilde. The latter possibilty is actually quite possible due to the Father, and it is also due to the Father that the Hedgewise are probably not going to play games and keep their cards close to their chests, as while they'll be guarded around the other contributors Mathilde will have their full trust and faith.
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Is the lore of the Nehekarans in the library of the Light order? Yes so they get to bargain with it.
Is the lore of the Hedgewise in the library of the Grey order? Evidently not or we would not have to bring in the hedgewise.

Why would the Hedgewise give up any advantage at the table? I mean as bad as their position currently is, you know with their magic being illegal on pain of death formally they woudl have the most interest to sell it dearly and not just hand it over to us. The father is 'having faith' not 'handing us all their secrets'.
 
Swantree said:
It's a minor hint since it isn't declarative, but it's heavy enough to lean towards it.
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It could also be the fact that the Grey College was founded on a foundation of Hedgecraft, like the Jades and the Druids.

SuperSonicSound said:
There's that and you know laying the foundation should take priority over literally everything as we only get the chance to do it once.
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Also, there's that. Even if we recruit the Hedgewise without the Father, we can still use it on them laterto get advantages. Once the foundations are layed, it's done. There's no doing it again with those same people. That action also gives access to new options, and the best possible result would gives us the most options.
 
I don't feel comfortable that we've adequately addressed the implications of bringing a forbidden group into the project at a formative stage.
[X] Plan Disregard WEBMAT (Fatherless) - Rite
[x] Plan Disregard WEBMAT, Acquire AP (Fatherless)

Also, I frankly don't care much about this father-daughters mystery. If Ranald wanted us to know about them, He could and should have just told us who- this sidetrack is an annoying waste of time to me, not intriguing.
 
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Swantree said:
It's a minor hint since it isn't declarative, but it's heavy enough to lean towards it.
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There's also this:
Boney said:
"I bring and seek no trouble here," you say, waving a greeting in a hand symbol of the Hedgewise that Kurtis Krammovitch taught you, which is eerily similar to a sign with the same meaning used in Ranaldian cant.
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And of course this is all happening while visiting a Hedgefolk community that lives by the Forest of Shadows after I've spent literal months arguing that a patron Goddess of Hedgefolk that live by the Forest of Shadows is a likely candidate for Ranald's daughter. It's not definitive, but it sure would be a huge concidence if it's not a deliberate hint.

DragonParadox said:
Is the lore of the Nehekarans in the library of the Light order? Yes so they get to bargain with it.
Is the lore of the Hedgewise in the library of the Grey order? Evidently not or we would not have to bring in the hedgewise.

Why would the Hedgewise give up any advantage at the table? I mean as bad as their position currently is, you know with their magic being illegal on pain of death formally they woudl have the most interest to sell it dearly and not just hand it over to us. The father is 'having faith' not 'handing us all their secrets'.
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When Mathilde gave her lecture of Waagh there was a Hedgewise visitor. Here's the description:
Boney said:
One of the Hedgewise, under a grey robe and a fair few cloaking spells, almost certainly here under a false name. If they're not also here by invitation and under the protection of the Grey College, they're likely to be on a pyre or in a shallow grave by sunrise tomorrow.
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As you say, their position is bad. It's only through the Grey College that they can take part in this sort of project. And when they do, they do it by posing as Grey Wizards, because while (some) Hedgewise (barely) trust the Grey Order - pretty much only thanks to Kurtis - there are very many people who want them dead, and if they act openly dead is where they'll end up.
The Hedgewise will bargin with us, but once we pay their price they will deliver their secrets through us. If not for the Father I would say that this would be through the Grey Order at large, maybe a Hedgewise showing up in a Grey robe like in our lecture. But because of the Father they might just literally tell Mathilde personally their secrets and trust her not to abuse them. But either way the Grey Order and Mathilde will appear to have Waystone knowledge of their own, which will be helpful in selling the bluff that Mathilde was a Waystone expert back when they came online in K8P.
 
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