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Warhammer Fantasy: Divided Loyalties - an Advisor's Quest

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Glau said:
Somewhat out of curiosity, somewhat out of frustration with the "must do these actions BEFORE any other actions may be done" arguments eating everything we do with the EIC:

What specific things are you concerned about that you expect to come to the fore with elves, that would not or did not with dwarves?
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It is more about reinforcing the culture of accountability and good business. One of the things that was hammered into me in my Accounting Ethics class was that systems are the best long term way of maintaining a ethical culture. Even if the initial employees are upstanding, moral people those that replace them are not always ethical. Only systems of checks, balances, and reviews truly sustain long term ethical culture.


So it's not that I'm worried about one guy defrauding the elves. I'm worried about a slow build up of little infractions that eventually cascade into something bad. Also, what would be a long time for humans is not for elves. If we want to maintain a good relationship the initial organizations must maintain an ethical outlook. If two hundred years from now systemic issues within the EIC cause issues, that might be seen as a short time in which the Hans proved to be untrustworthy to the elves.

Again, I am coming from this as an accountant, so I would be pushing for this in general. I do want to use the EIC to start trade relationships, but as a perpetual worrier I like to over prepare.
 
SolBlazer13 said:
So it's not that I'm worried about one guy defrauding the elves. I'm worried about a slow build up of little infractions that eventually cascade into something bad. Also, what would be a long time for humans is not for elves. If we want to maintain a good relationship the initial organizations must maintain an ethical outlook. If two hundred years from now systemic issues within the EIC cause issues, that might be seen as a short time in which the Hans proved to be untrustworthy to the elves.
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... but we already have, "dont fuck with the dwarfs." as a core tenet or the business, which is easy enough to change to "dont fuck with the long lived races".
 
Rafin said:
Okay, Mathilde is clearly just fishing for a lecture/rant from her girlfriend here, because she enjoys listening to her speak and explain stuff. I know she knows that a forest isn't just "a forest by this point. Hell, I know Panoramia knows that as well.
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An excellent source of Ulgu is having a friend confound you with their expertise and specialized knowledge.

You can then use this to confuse someone else later.
 
Glau said:
I'm also in favor of keeping in mind that this "spy network" is going to me much closer to a series of penpals than the CIA. This world does not have large bureaucracies. The whole colleges of magic are smaller than some highschools IRL.

So if we want to have a whole bunch of agents, they are either going to be cross-trained merchants, our they aren't going to be covering their own costs and we will have to pay out of pocket for each one.

There's just not enough people involved to do it any other way.
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I mean, thats what spies are/were in the period the settings in. People set up at a certain place with their ingroups and connections there who also pass on the relevant information gained through these to some third party, mostly for financial gain. The easiest way to place a foreigner somewhere with a legitimate reason and a high enough status to make relevant connections is a (rich) merchant. Only other one Im thinking of right now is an ambassador. I cant remember examples right now, but Im sure Ive read about merchants being persecuted for being accused of this. Also gives a legitimate reason to visit and exchange money with all kinds of people from different strata.
 
What Toptorb said. I'm not looking for a baseline justification, I'm looking for a reason to take an additional action, on top of all the ones we've taken so far.

Aule said:
Sorry, I don't understand. 1) Science assumes that the world beyond individual perception objectively exists and is not a dream of a butterfly and 2) once you have any half-reasonable definition of "mind" it is not hard to prove its existence in other humans.
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It's your #2. The issue isn't proving other humans have minds and emotions. You issue is that you can't prove everything else doesn't.

So, in short, your #2 can support animism, and you don't have a limiting principal to stop it. Or you have to distinguish some how, and that is where you are hiding your ACTUAL theory of the mind.
 
I'm also very cautious of systemic corruption, so I definitely want to get the auditors division either done now or get it done immediately after reaching out to the Eonir. Doing the auditor division now would be the more pragmatic option in my eyes, but having the EIC do the outreach first would increase my investment in the EIC faster.

Its also of note that not having that auditors division feels kind of like a "mystery box of badness". Its sorta like the Wisdom's Asp in that every moment we don't do something about it could result in Badness, except if Badness does happen we probably won't know about it until multiple turns after the fact, after its already done a lot of damage.
 
I hate to say this but if we may want to consider using AP to get multiple things down with the company. What I would like is to spend AP next turn getting some field of research or the company set up done with.
 
Nurgle said:
I hate to say this but if we may want to consider using AP to get multiple things down with the company. What I would like is to spend AP next turn getting some field of research or the company set up done with.
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Considering how contentious next turn's AP allocation is already looking to be, I don't think you're likely to get any traction for devoting additional AP to the EIC of all things.
 
Wiadi said:
Considering how contentious next turn's AP allocation is already looking to be, I don't think you're likely to get any traction for devoting additional AP to the EIC of all things.
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Yeah the hatred for the company is something I do not understand. While it is suppose to be a spy ring for us people do not seem to want to actually do the options needed for it to be a spy ring. Or just do the options for us to make money.
 
Nurgle said:
Yeah the hatred for the company is something I do not understand. While it is suppose to be a spy ring for us people do not seem to want to actually do the options needed for it to be a spy ring. Or just do the options for us to make money.
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I don't really get the hate either, but then, I also don't understand the general hostility to preparatory actions. Regardless, though, the point is just that it's not a priority right now. We have an extremely serious-business project to be working on to which the EIC is at best tangentially relevant.
 
Frankly I think we can trust the other shareholders (Especially Wilhelmina) to handle establishing auditors if it's really necessary. She has a much better grasp on the pulse of things day to day, and ability to determine who would be suited for the role, see if there are troubling indicators signaling it might be necessary, and would be in place to better follow up on things to ensure it stayed on track if implemented.

So I'm not really interested in sticking our nose in at the moment. If something is brought to our attention indicating their might be an issue not being properly resolved then sure. Otherwise, let it lie.
 
Thomasfoolery said:
Frankly I think we can trust the other shareholders (Especially Wilhelmina) to handle establishing auditors if it's really necessary. She has a much better grasp on the pulse of things day to day, and ability to determine who would be suited for the role, see if there are troubling indicators signaling it might be necessary, and would be in place to better follow up on things to ensure it stayed on track if implemented.

So I'm not really interested in sticking our nose in at the moment. If something is brought to our attention indicating their might be an issue not being properly resolved then sure. Otherwise, let it lie.
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That is the kind of complacency which is how corruption become prevalent into a institution. We need a audit department to make sure no one is stealing or misusing funds. Wilhelmina seems more intent on making deals than dealing with internal problems. Also she is human and well humans are bad at noticing corruption until it affects them personally.
 
Nurgle said:
Yeah the hatred for the company is something I do not understand. While it is suppose to be a spy ring for us people do not seem to want to actually do the options needed for it to be a spy ring. Or just do the options for us to make money.
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I mean, we've used it for spying to great effect. If you recall, our Talabecland adventure where we hunted down Alberich was greatly aided, in its preparatory phase, by the EIC intelligence we started getting the turn before. It's just that it's a tool that only works in certain situations, and those situations don't seem to come up that often because of the job we chose to take. It would come up much more often if e.g. we'd taken the Sylvania or bodyguard to Mandred options. But when it works, it works great.

I'm currently leaning towards "we should drop the spy network in a few turns, after the Library is more set up and we can drop it as well" to reclaim the two half-actions, which we can then spend on Eike or just have as personal AP.
 
picklepikkl said:
I mean, we've used it for spying to great effect. If you recall, our Talabecland adventure where we hunted down Alberich was greatly aided, in its preparatory phase, by the EIC intelligence we started getting the turn before. It's just that it's a tool that only works in certain situations, and those situations don't seem to come up that often because of the job we chose to take. It would come up much more often if e.g. we'd taken the Sylvania or bodyguard to Mandred options. But when it works, it works great.

I'm currently leaning towards "we should drop the spy network in a few turns, after the Library is more set up and we can drop it as well" to reclaim the two half-actions, which we can then spend on Eike or just have as personal AP.
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We should not drop it till it is actually set up. It is currently the only source on income Mathilde has since we do not take money form the fief. We need it to spread to every province and we want it profitable.

As for Eike I would like to see what kind of wizard she rolls to be before trying to take her as a apprentice. Mathilde may be a bad fit for her. Or maybe Eike will just want to stay in academia not going on adventures.
 
Nurgle said:
We should not drop it till it is actually set up. It is currently the only source on income Mathilde has since we do not take money form the fief. We need it to spread to every province and we want it profitable.
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I don't think I was clear: I'm certainly not suggesting divesting Mathilde of her ownership in the EIC, that would be nuts. What I am suggesting is that eventually we will drop the active management of the EIC's intelligence apparatus and turn it over the the Hochlander. We'll still get the income stream from it even if we go back to being a silent partner.

(Also, we don't really have the ability to influence the economic progress of the EIC beyond a few specific options that are notable for being exceptions. We chose to manage it as an intelligence apparatus and not to actively manage the economic side of things. As a result, directives about where it spreads and how are largely in Wilhelmina's hands.)
 
picklepikkl said:
I don't think I was clear: I'm certainly not suggesting divesting Mathilde of her ownership in the EIC, that would be nuts. What I am suggesting is that eventually we will drop the active management of the EIC's intelligence apparatus and turn it over the the Hochlander. We'll still get the income stream from it even if we go back to being a silent partner.

(Also, we don't really have the ability to influence the economic progress of the EIC beyond a few specific options that are notable for being exceptions. We chose to manage it as an intelligence apparatus and not to actively manage the economic side of things. As a result, directives about where it spreads and how are largely in Wilhelmina's hands.)
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I got to disagree Mathilde can have a huge influence on the EIC. The dawi holds know her name and trust her. She had the opportunity to get a foot hold in Kislev. She can start trading with elves. Think of Mathilde as Elon Musk or Bezos. She brings name recognition to any venture and that will make things easier. People trust her and that is in itself valuable. Her being loosely involved with the EIC is valuable for name recognition.
 
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Rafin said:
Oh boy. Stay safe.
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Half the eastern Australian seaboard was flooded to 'unprecedented levels' a few weeks ago, thousands are still homeless while the climate deniers said 'oh it's just a one in 3,500 year flood' or some shit and last night had another flood warning in the same areas. Climate change is fucked and Australia is getting it hard. Stay safe Boney.
 
Nurgle said:
That is the kind of complacency which is how corruption become prevalent into a institution. We need a audit department to make sure no one is stealing or misusing funds. Wilhelmina seems more intent on making deals than dealing with internal problems. Also she is human and well humans are bad at noticing corruption until it affects them personally.
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Don't particularly agree. I think she's vastly more equipped than Mathilde to make that kind of call and don't agree with your characterization of her either, which I feel is far more measured and inclined to check her bases to ensure she can achieve her ambitions, rather than just blindly grasping for more cash.

Also corruption would affect her personally, the company is basically all she does or cares about and she spends all her time working on it, people going off rails isn't something she's going to be inclined to turn a blind eye to.
 
If y'all want to worry about the EIC fifty years from now as if internal corruption is the threat with the highest likelihood of it being snuffed out, I guess that is cool. I'm interested in using the tool now though, not polishing it up to do the best for some third party like the empire.

Belkar said:
The easiest way to place a foreigner somewhere with a legitimate reason and a high enough status to make relevant connections is a (rich) merchant.
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And that means that either they ARE a rich merchant with some minimal additional training, or they are playing the role as someone with a great deal of training and very deep pockets behind them.

Specialists are super expensive to field, is all I'm saying. Instead of multiple classes of them at headquarters im thinking more like a two week crash course for when the caravan masters return to stirland.

picklepikkl said:
I'm currently leaning towards "we should drop the spy network in a few turns, after the Library is more set up and we can drop it as well" to reclaim the two half-actions, which we can then spend on Eike or just have as personal AP.
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I disagree.

I feel like it's trading the kinetic energy of actually impacting the empire and it's commerce for the potential energy of doing a whole bunch of magic creation and sword style training.

Being a hermit cultivator, basically. I want Mathilde to be skilled and powerful so she can change things- it's the changing things and the actual integration with the world that I like, not the increase in potential to.

So I see personal improvement actions as a means to an end, not an end in and of themselves, and the EIC serves that same end directly.

I don't want to give it up, not when it's just 1/2 action.
 
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Glau said:
What Toptorb said. I'm not looking for a baseline justification, I'm looking for a reason to take an additional action, on top of all the ones we've taken so far.



It's your #2. The issue isn't proving other humans have minds and emotions. You issue is that you can't prove everything else doesn't.

So, in short, your #2 can support animism, and you don't have a limiting principal to stop it. Or you have to distinguish some how, and that is where you are hiding your ACTUAL theory of the mind.
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Aha, now I understand what you mean. Essentially, if I want to say that something does or doesn't have emotions I must define "emotions" first, end even if I say that emotions are mental states it simply moves onto defining "mental". And what, exactly, constitutes a "mind" is an old and hotly debated topic, and it is nowhere close to an agreement.

That's fair. And since I'm neither a professional philosopher nor a neurobiologist, I'll just quietly retire from this point of conversation.
 
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Glau said:
And that means that either they ARE a rich merchant with some minimal additional training, or they are playing the role as someone with a great deal of training and very deep pockets behind them.

Specialists are super expensive to field, is all I'm saying. Instead of multiple classes of them at headquarters im thinking more like a two week crash course for when the caravan masters return to stirland.
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Apparently I should have clarified what I meant. Our spies are merchants. To be a spy they dont need to anything else then a normal, well, maybe a little more social then most, merchant does. But instead of just swapping stories and news between different friends and social circles, he also pens a letter every month or two or more often if something comes up to headquarters. In a universe where basic information technology and cheap fast travel dont exist this is already a lot. As weve already seen from info weve already gotten.
People talk and even basic Infosec isnt really a thing most of the time.

Training isnt going to change much about quality and quantity of information because the question then is what sort of information youd think hed aquire. Doing some stealth shenanigans or interrogating someone is a) orders of magnitude more dangerous and not something wed like to get caught in and b) something best dealt with by real professionals which takes us to the level of the Hochlander or maybe a little bit less. Or a Witch Hunter. Those kind of people dont grow on trees, theres already different organizations roughly on our side recruiting them and most important of all such an organization isnt going to be missed and subsequently tolerated.

See it as an application of the 80/20 rule.


Glau said:
I disagree.

I feel like it's trading the kinetic energy of actually impacting the empire and it's commerce for the potential energy of doing a whole bunch of magic creation and sword style training.

Being a hermit cultivator, basically. I want Mathilde to be skilled and powerful so she can change things- it's the changing things and the actual integration with the world that I like, not the increase in potential to.

So I see personal improvement actions as a means to an end, not an end in and of themselves, and the EIC serves that same end directly.

I don't want to give it up, not when it's just 1/2 action.
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Agreed and I really like your analogy.


I think weve reached a threshold were getting more powerful personally is a) difficult and b) doesnt really change much about what were capable or incable of doing.
Only personal improvement Id consider without significant convincing is obscure stuff that lets us diversify what were already capable of.
Otherwise Influence is our new "Power stat", its what were wielding for the waystone project, its why its even possible. Economic Power is one way to a lot of influence, Information another. The EIC provides both.
 
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