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They couldn't escalate without a baker. Suppose they do what you say, and then it's a non-negligible chance that the next trespasser is a Nordlandian army, and the one after that is Imperial army, and they don't like their chances of beating it. Sure, the probability of that happening isn't high, but can they risk it? Is it worth a few trees? Can they keep risking it if peasant trespassing continues regardless? Doesn't it look like intentional provocation, hmm?

As soon as they allied Middenland they proceeded to enforce their claims.

I mean they probably can kill the hell out of one Norland army, now and in the past and for that matter an imperial army.... so long as it is on their ground. The trouble is the more you fight in the forest the more you damage it. If an Imperial soldier gets hit by arrows from a tree he is going to cut down the tree.

I think the issue is more with individuals and small groups, you cannot stop those with an army and fey watchers can only do so much expecially when the prize is so great. As far as I can tell the best way to deal with that would be to push human habitation out of the woods entirely, but that was the sort of thing that would normally have summoned a large imperial response, and then one after that. Humans make more humans a hell of a lot faster than elves make more elves. In a war of attrition Laurelorn looses.
 
Article:

Noun

misnomer (plural misnomers)
  1. A use of a term that is misleading; a misname.
    Calling it a driveway is a bit of a misnomer, since you don't drive on it, you park on it.
  2. A term that is misleading, even if it may not be incorrect.
    The name Chinese checkers is a misnomer since the game has nothing to do with China.
    The word blackboard as applied to green or brown chalkboards is a misnomer but is not incorrect, as the broad sense of the word is idiomatic.
  3. A term whose sense in common usage conflicts with a technical sense.
  4. (proscribed, nonstandard) something asserted not to be true; a myth or mistaken belief
    It's a misnomer that engineers can't write.

I think definitions 2 and 3 apply quite nicely to the dispute at hand.
When I come to this thread, I don't expect people to call my sexuality a misnomer. This is starting to really irritate me.
 
Guys I think it is safe to say that in addition to making people needlessly uncomfortable a conversation on the meaning of words is way way off topic at this point. I do not think any rules have been broken or anything like that, but this feels very much like a point where this should be dropped or taken to PMs.
 
When I come to this thread, I don't expect people to call my sexuality a misnomer. This is starting to really irritate me.
The context I was looking to emphasize was that the development of the word's common usage and what a technical definition might imply could be different, and that neither is incorrect, as the definition says. Apologies for any offense given.
 
She looks down, and then kneels to inspect the underside of the platform. "With provisions too, judging by the fruit."

"Or a convenient source of poison for their arrows."

Panoramia withdraws her hand from where she'd been about to pluck one. "That would be a possibility too," she says, opening her satchel and fishing through it for gloves and a glass jar.
Pictured: the difference in perspective from someone who grows food for a living vs someone who assassinates people (inter alia) for a living.

This was a really cool update and I enjoyed seeing the reasoning for the Eonir being so protective of their forest laid out a little bit more.
 
I have nothing to add to this conversation about what is the right term to other peoples sexuality.
And i strongly suspect neither does anyone else.
So let's not?
 
Pictured: the difference in perspective from someone who grows food for a living vs someone who assassinates people (inter alia) for a living.
Except Panoramia was the source of poisoned arrows for the rangers during the K8P Expedition, so it's not like she can't think of that possibility either. I chalked it up to more general paranoia from the Grey mindset--instead of "how can I most efficiently kill someone?", it's more "think of all the ways things can go wrong, and then ask other people for ways you missed."
 
The Grey Lords gave the Eonir potions that made their blood poisonous to mosquitos and other pests that lived in Laurelorn, making it so that all the bugs avoid the Eonir. If they can do stuff like that, for all we know the fruits are both nutritious for the Eonir and poisonous to anyone else.
 
I mean, most of it doesn't even seem to be arguments, just various comments expanding on certain phenomena… Huh, I wonder if this is how the Foundation action is going to turn out.

Also, everyone's missing the most obvious sign of simple naming: Earth.
I maintain 'Earth' is a stupid name for our planet, considering the surface is over 70% covered in water and most of the interior is rock/magma.
 
The Grey Lords gave the Eonir potions that made their blood poisonous to mosquitos and other pests that lived in Laurelorn, making it so that all the bugs avoid the Eonir. If they can do stuff like that, for all we know the fruits are both nutritious for the Eonir and poisonous to anyone else.
Actually, building on this, I heard once that certain tastes were there to inform us about poison. I think it was sour and bitter that was supposed to inform us that something is poisonous? And maybe spicy. Except, nowadays we actively seek out those tastes that supposedly warned us of poison. Wonder what's up with that.
 
Ok, catching up!

By definition emotions are mental states, not just any reaction to external stimuli; else you would have to also say that your computer experiences emotions when you type a chapter and it reacts to pressed keys by adding new symbols.

I dislike this definition because it means the only emotions that you actually know exist are your own, and imputing them to another human involves the same assumptions as imputing them to sub-sapient things.

We need something that at least acknowledges other people can have emotions without requiring proof of them having mental worlds, since that is empirical only to the individual.

Karag Nar and the Eastern Valley have an extremely well-developed food culture, built around Halfling religious beliefs and farm-to-table practices, Dwarven cultural value of family meals and widespread availability of extremely good beers and ales, and Tilean coffee culture and spices.

I LOVE the image this brings up- a hundred small cafes and stores lining the slopes around the East Valley, each with their own specialty and the fusion cuisine rivaling anything outside of ulthan. Coffee shops with beet-sugar pastries, savory pies dusted with coco and pepper, custom-made cookware and stoves scrupulously designed to distribute heat evenly- even a nearby source of inexhaustible ice!

I'm tempted to do a traveler's guide to the restaurants.

I mean, that's where "bi" in "bisexual" comes from? As in "two". Which is the same place "bi" in "binary" comes from. You may argue that "bisexual" evolved to mean "pansexual", but etymologically they are certainly different.

Just as a warning, I've seen this turn into flame wars on both Twitter and Tumblr every few years. It's not a subject you can touch without getting burned, because everyone involved is going to read it as telling them who they are, and people hate that.

That is, it's almost more about drawing them into human and dwarf affairs. ... But also because of their possible practical contributions, yeah -- after all, they might wind up being the house that helps build the physical parts of the Waystones after we finish.

I would love to get a few more people on the "use the EIC for this", since we have a half-action that has been determinedly used for basically non-useful actions for a while now.

It bugs me to see plan discussions that basically flag EIC as 'whatever, TBD' since I feel like we have been hurt by not having a vision here, and just patching holes as we worry about them.

So. What is the plan for the EIC, over 5-6 turns?

I'd like to use it as a tool to get involved in Nordland and Laurelorn, giving us an excuse to meditate in our own interests rather than as a representative of one of the parties.

That's because we found other planets later and didn't realise they were the same thing at first. Plus, we didn't name the planet after part of it.

Planets technically means "wandering stars", right? It makes sense that understanding earth to actually be an object the same as they are would be near the end of developing astronomy initially.
 
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Actually, building on this, I heard once that certain tastes were there to inform us about poison. I think it was sour and bitter that was supposed to inform us that something is poisonous? And maybe spicy. Except, nowadays we actively seek out those tastes that supposedly warned us of poison. Wonder what's up with that.
IIRC, capsaicin (the chemical that causes the 'heat' sensation in spices) is meant to cause pain in mammals while not affecting birds, because birds that eat seeds distribute them more widely than land-based animals. We just somehow ended up enjoying the sensation of our mouths being on fire.
 
Except Panoramia was the source of poisoned arrows for the rangers during the K8P Expedition, so it's not like she can't think of that possibility either. I chalked it up to more general paranoia from the Grey mindset--instead of "how can I most efficiently kill someone?", it's more "think of all the ways things can go wrong, and then ask other people for ways you missed."
She certainly can think of it, yes - that's why she wasn't shocked or even particularly surprised when Mathilde pointed it out. But the K8P Expedition was years ago now, and what we do/think about every day makes a major impact on what we will tend to think of first. That's all I was saying.
 
Actually, building on this, I heard once that certain tastes were there to inform us about poison. I think it was sour and bitter that was supposed to inform us that something is poisonous? And maybe spicy. Except, nowadays we actively seek out those tastes that supposedly warned us of poison. Wonder what's up with that.
It's only really bitter that's a warning about potential poison.

Sour means that the thing is acidic, which is relevant information but not necessarily good or bad - it is a good warning not to put too much in your mouth at once though as if something is sour enough it can cause chemical burns in the mouth. (Once it's in the stomach that's not an issue, the stomach is more acidic than anything you could swallow)

Spicy isn't a warning about poison, it's the effect of the poison - spicy things directly trigger the heat-sensors in your mouth, rather than being something we taste. For most animals "Argh my mouth is burning" will make them spit out the food without realising that their mouth isn't burning, but humans with our cooked food (which we expect to be significantly heated) and our intelligence (which allows us to recognise that the burning sensation isn't doing any actual damage) can work past that.

The masochism aspect is still interesting - especially in the case of sour things where people do actually give themselves chemical burns in the pursuit of extreme flavour. [As I did on two occasions, once as a child the second time as a teenager]
 
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I would love to get a few more people on the "use the EIC for this", since we have a half-action that has been determinedly used for basically non-useful actions for a while now.

It bugs me to see plan discussions that basically flag EIC as 'whatever, TBD' since I feel like we have been hurt by not having a vision here, and just patching holes as we worry about them.

So. What is the plan for the EIC, over 5-6 turns?

I'd like to use it as a tool to get involved in Nordland and Laurelorn, giving us an excuse to meditate in our own interests rather than as a representative of one of the parties.
Huh! Using the EIC as a bonding agent of Imperial and Eonir diplomacy... That might actually be a brilliant purpose for them?

And it would be perfect because the EIC is partly-owned and directed by somebody who is both in-the-know about the whole Eonir-Imperial and-also-Waystones thing, and is directly day-to-day run by somebody the Grey Wizard trusts to boot. And even aside from that, the EIC has a deep-rooted "be patriotic" and "don't mess with Dwafs" values to boot.

So basically...

We can trust the EIC.

The EIC is used to dealing with Dwarfs.

The EIC deals with trade in the Empire.

One of the EIC's owner is somebody who is involved in the Waystone Project directly, and a huge Dwarf-friend, i.e. us. Which means the EIC would be seen by the Emperor/the Electors/College Patriarchs and Matriarchs as functioning as Mathilde's business venture here; they'd know that the EIC was being careful and aware of what's at stake here and etc.

If we want to make diplomatic and economic connections to the Eonir, in order to avoid wars or disputes or to further mutual cooperation, the EIC is a great way to do so.
 
The EIC is sharply Stirlandian, though. A whole bunch of other trading interests, both private and state-sponsored--Ostermark, Talabecland, Nordland, etc.--would protest at being excluded from representation. If the Crown wants an Imperial presence at the diplomatic table, they'd have to reject the offer and send someone "non-partisan," i.e., someone directly from the Imperial bureaucracy.
 
The EIC is sharply Stirlandian, though. A whole bunch of other trading interests, both private and state-sponsored--Ostermark, Talabecland, Nordland, etc.--would protest at being excluded from representation. If the Crown wants an Imperial presence at the diplomatic table, they'd have to reject the offer and send someone "non-partisan," i.e., someone directly from the Imperial bureaucracy.
They'd probably raise a stink about that, too- the Imperial Bureaucracy is also the Reikland bureaucracy, and whoever was sent would probably be representing a Reikland trading concern.
 
The EIC is sharply Stirlandian, though. A whole bunch of other trading interests, both private and state-sponsored--Ostermark, Talabecland, Nordland, etc.--would protest at being excluded from representation. If the Crown wants an Imperial presence at the diplomatic table, they'd have to reject the offer and send someone "non-partisan," i.e., someone directly from the Imperial bureaucracy.

Except that this isn't the crown pushing to get an imperial presence for a neutral trade negotiation.

This is a personally involved person bringing in an organization that happens to get an imperial seat *created* at the table of elf/dwarf trade negotiations.
 
Planets technically means "wandering stars", right? It makes sense that understanding earth to actually be an object the same as they are would be near the end of developing astronomy initially.
Just means "wanderer," yeah, because the planets are, from a classical astronomer's perspective, the only objects in the sky that move relative to the sky itself. Stars move over the course of the night (as the Earth rotates around its axis), and stars move over the course of a year (as the Earth revolves around the sun), but they don't move relative to one another in a way perceptible with the naked eye.

(This is one of the major arguments for geocentrism: if the Sun is the center and everything revolved around it, then observations of stars six months apart should show them moving relative to one another. We don't see this, therefore the Earth must be stationary. This is a totally sound argument: the issue is that the stars are so far away that you can't perceive their parallax movement unaided. The ancients weren't stupid or conceited when they said the Earth was the center of the universe, geocentrism was legitimately the best explanation of the data they had available to them without telescopes.)

Planets are the only regularly-appearing object in the night sky that don't do this, and so ancient astronomers always cared about them a lot, because they were obviously special. This is why the Sun and the Moon make the list of classical planets: while not fitting the modern astronomical definition of planets, they are definitely celestial objects that move relative to the sky. And the fact that there are seven such planets that you can see with the naked eye (The Sun, the Moon, Mercury, Venus, Mars, Jupiter, and Saturn) may explain why seven is such a common magical number to find across cultures across the world.

(You can also understand a bit better why people freaked out about comets: it was a thing in the night sky that moved, like a planet, but it wasn't a normal planet, it appeared without warning and disappeared the same way. As any person who uses a complicated system knows, when something that normally doesn't change suddenly starts exhibiting weird behavior, you worry. The skies are so unchanging and predictable in their courses that they were used for telling time and navigation in an era without mechanical clocks, and deviations from that are legitimately scary!)
 
Just means "wanderer," yeah, because the planets are, from a classical astronomer's perspective, the only objects in the sky that move relative to the sky itself. Stars move over the course of the night (as the Earth rotates around its axis), and stars move over the course of a year (as the Earth revolves around the sun), but they don't move relative to one another in a way perceptible with the naked eye.

(This is one of the major arguments for geocentrism: if the Sun is the center and everything revolved around it, then observations of stars six months apart should show them moving relative to one another. We don't see this, therefore the Earth must be stationary. This is a totally sound argument: the issue is that the stars are so far away that you can't perceive their parallax movement unaided. The ancients weren't stupid or conceited when they said the Earth was the center of the universe, geocentrism was legitimately the best explanation of the data they had available to them without telescopes.)

Planets are the only regularly-appearing object in the night sky that don't do this, and so ancient astronomers always cared about them a lot, because they were obviously special. This is why the Sun and the Moon make the list of classical planets: while not fitting the modern astronomical definition of planets, they are definitely celestial objects that move relative to the sky. And the fact that there are seven such planets that you can see with the naked eye (The Sun, the Moon, Mercury, Venus, Mars, Jupiter, and Saturn) may explain why seven is such a common magical number to find across cultures across the world.

(You can also understand a bit better why people freaked out about comets: it was a thing in the night sky that moved, like a planet, but it wasn't a normal planet, it appeared without warning and disappeared the same way. As any person who uses a complicated system knows, when something that normally doesn't change suddenly starts exhibiting weird behavior, you worry. The skies are so unchanging and predictable in their courses that they were used for telling time and navigation in an era without mechanical clocks, and deviations from that are legitimately scary!)
I want you to know Pickle, that for the longest time my mental image of Max from this quest was practically your profile picture. I don't know why, but the nerdistry presented here (and I say that with love) brought that to mind.
 
On the Eastern Imperial Company

I think the issue with the EIC is that it is impersonal, it is just not very involved with the stuff we do. With Web-Mat we have the very much present wizards to represent it, with the library we have all that information and lore that we want for our own purposes no matter what the issue of the day is. By contrast the EIC does three things broadly:
  1. Make money that we are likely to spend on books, that is two degrees of separation from the things we want which is lore
  2. Make the EIC stronger and more influential, which is self-reinforcing, great if you already care about the company, not so great under any other circumstance
  3. Give us a tavern's eye view of some intelligence which is very hit and miss because we are into some very esoteric stuff that the company is unlikely to be involved into

Keeping this in mind using the EIC to set up and improve trade relations with Laurelorn seems like a very good idea as it will get it to be more invested in the actual story we are making here and once Eike gets set up as our apprentice we can have all the more threads to pull on in that regard. I know 'it sounds like fun' is a very subjective position to argue but it is I think the strongest one here so this is what I am going to end on.
 
My gut response to the idea of using the EIC for elf diplo is that I really like that idea. I don't think I'm in tune enough with Imperial politics to say anything on whether "would others raise a fuss" is a real concern, though.

Speaking of the EIC, I forget, did we get that "set up the EIC to continually collect books for Library" thing going? I remember discussion about that but honestly a lot of the EIC actions have slipped my mind entirely.

Edit: Actually, I think it may have been "use book collectors as part of the EIC information network" that I was remembering. I was remembering talk about EIC/library synergy and remembered wrong what that synergy actually was, I think.
 
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