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Warhammer Fantasy: Divided Loyalties - an Advisor's Quest

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Speaking of kings, what do you guys think of getting the high king on board with the Project? I mean so far we have only thought in terms of arcane traditions, but just these last updates we have had the option of taking on the state of Kiselv, so if they are a valid options why not the Karaz Ankor? I do not expect Thorgrim to just tell us about the Throne and the Stones, but with the backing of the High King we might be able to get more out of the Loremasters and maybe even runesmiths of various holds.

We might be able to get hints of the truth that way and even if not it would be a good participation in terms of prestige. Not to dis Thorek, but we have to explain to people why he is a big deal because Azul has been isolated for so long, not so the high king to the dwarfs.
 
DragonParadox said:
Speaking of kings, what do you guys think of getting the high king on board with the Project? I mean so far we have only thought in terms of arcane traditions, but just these last updates we have had the option of taking on the state of Kiselv, so if they are a valid options why not the Karaz Ankor? I do not expect Thorgrim to just tell us about the Throne and the Stones, but with the backing of the High King we might be able to get more out of the Loremasters and maybe even runesmiths of various holds.

We might be able to get hints of the truth that way and even if not it would be a good participation in terms of prestige. Not to dis Thorek, but we have to explain to people why he is a big deal because Azul has been isolated for so long, not so the high king to the dwarfs.
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Sound out Thorek for input on anything about that first. If there's anything that might be relevant to the project that the Karaz Ankor loremasters might have, I think he'd be the one would know where to start looking and who to ask the right questions to. Assuming that he hasn't done so himself since he is fully onboard with the project.
 
Amantalado said:
Sound out Thorek for input on anything about that first. If there's anything that might be relevant to the project that the Karaz Ankor loremasters might have, I think he'd be the one would know where to start looking and who to ask the right questions to. Assuming that he hasn't done so himself since he is fully onboard with the project.
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I am not against this per say, but it should be kept in mind that his time is no less precious than ours. So he cannot go digging though every obscure archive in the Karaz Ankor looking for generally useful things and again Azul has been isolated for a long time so it is not like he has much in the way of historical record of that might be in say the Vaults of Izor or another Old Hold like Kadrin.
 
DragonParadox said:
I am not against this per say, but it should be kept in mind that his time is no less precious than ours. So he cannot go digging though every obscure archive in the Karaz Ankor looking for generally useful things and again Azul has been isolated for a long time so it is not like he has much in the way of historical record of that might be in say the Vaults of Izor or another Old Hold like Kadrin.
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A dwarf of Thorek's stature definitely has people to do things for him.
He's not going to be combing all the archives himself.
Unlike Kragg, Thorek uses the people he has at his disposal.
 
The High King is very busy with preparing for the retaking of silverspear, and waystones isn't something he can delegate on account of being the only person who knows anything it. We'd either have to do a collosal favour for him, or attract him by having a substantial number of successes first, and he'd probably want a major work of the ancestors restored by the project as well—which is not something we know how to do yet.
 
DragonParadox said:
I am not against this per say, but it should be kept in mind that his time is no less precious than ours. So he cannot go digging though every obscure archive in the Karaz Ankor looking for generally useful things and again Azul has been isolated for a long time so it is not like he has much in the way of historical record of that might be in say the Vaults of Izor or another Old Hold like Kadrin.
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I'm not advocating that we speak to him to get him to do the work. I'd advise speaking to him first to see what he's been working on while we've been off getting the rest of the groups in the project, and so that we don't end up looking into and procuring the kind of information he'd already have.
 
It would have been rather easy to point the dwarves in Malekith's direction even if he didn't actually know that Malekith is, in fact, responsible for the crisis. Instead, Caledor II chose the literally worst possible way to respond.

Dieter's reign resulted in many bad things for the Empire, but nothing unrecoverable. Caledor is directly responsible for losing the majority of elven empire's territories and the largest war between what can be described as factions of order in history.
 
Amantalado said:
Have the Dwarves had any terrible equivalents for High King? Empire had Dieter, and the Asur had Caledor II.
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Reading between the lines, Morgrim Blackbeard's reign seeing a lot of lives lost for the very temporary retaking of Karak Varn and Mount Gunbad, and having an attack on Mount Silverspear that had to be called off partway through because Karaz-a-Karak itself was left undefended (?) and came under threat by wandering Trolls and Ogres (???), really makes me wonder about him. Especially when you factor in that one of his main legacies was that the Hammerers were founded because apparently he thought it was a great idea to visit Mount Gunbad with only a handful of bodyguards and had to be saved from a Goblin attack by goldsmiths armed only with their forging hammers.
 
StormySky said:
Still, even putting the Vortex thing aside, Asuryan still has questionable judgement. He somehow let Caledor II pass the test. It's one thing for a candidate to be fine when they walk into the flames only to later go off the rails (ie Aenarion), but for someone so incompetent right off the bat to be allowed in…
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Remember: Asuryan is an asshole. He probably considered Caledor II to be an excellent example of an elf, exhibiting all their finest qualities.
 
Aule said:
It would have been rather easy to point the dwarves in Malekith's direction even if he didn't actually know that Malekith is, in fact, responsible for the crisis. Instead, Caledor II chose the literally worst possible way to respond.

Dieter's reign resulted in many bad things for the Empire, but nothing unrecoverable. Caledor is directly responsible for losing the majority of elven empire's territories and the largest war between what can be described as factions of order in history.
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1. The Dwarfs were never told about the Dark Elves. Even assuming they had heard of the existence of a breakaway faction, blaming the attacks on Malekith, who last the Dwarfs knew was a great Elven hero and close personal friend to the first High King probably wouldn't have played well.
2. Caledor II wasn't particularly interested in averting the war, because he thought he'd win.
3. Sure, but the comparison's being made in Caledor's favour is that he was incompetent, not malicious, while Dieter actively fucked over the Empire for his own entertainment.
4. Caledor II didn't cost the Asur their empire, Caradryel did. He was the one who recalled the Elves. It wasn't even the fact the Elves lost the War that led to it, it was the need to defend Ulthuan from the invading Druchii.
 
deathofrats0808 said:
2. Caledor II wasn't particularly interested in averting the war, because he thought he'd win.
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Honestly, that is always a sign of either malice, or malice AND incompetence in my book.

Malice if you actually win easily, malice and incompetence if you do this shit and still end up sabotaging your empire badly.

...Talking purely about the fictional discussion of the fictional motives of a fictional character in Warhammer here. Parallels with reality are purely incidental.
 
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storryeater said:
Honestly, that is always a sign of either malice, or malice AND incompetence in my book.

Malice if you actually win, malice and incompetence if you do this shit and still end up sabotaging your empire badly.

...Talking purely about the fictional discussion of the fictional motives of a fictional character in Warhammer here.
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Eh, that depends on your perspective. IMO, Caledor didn't want to avert the war, he wanted to prove he was the equal of his incredibly successful father by crushing a bunch of upstarts. That's not exactly malicious behaviour. Also, going to war because you think you'd win isn't inherently malicious anyway. It's the only sensible reason to go to war that isn't "because otherwise my country will be destroyed". It says nothing about your motives for going to war with a particular opponent.
 
deathofrats0808 said:
Eh, that depends on your perspective. IMO, Caledor didn't want to avert the war, he wanted to prove he was the equal of his incredibly successful father by crushing a bunch of upstarts. That's not exactly malicious behaviour. Also, going to war because you think you'd win isn't inherently malicious anyway. It's the only sensible reason to go to war that isn't "because otherwise my country will be destroyed". It says nothing about your motives for going to war with a particular opponent.
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Even on an "easy" war, even if you do not care at all for your opponent's lives, you'd be spending the lives of your own citizens like cheap currency. There are cases where such a thing may be preferable, see: defensive wars, especially against chaos, and some gnarly edge cases I feel are too sidetracking to discuss. But otherwise, whatever "benefit" your empire will gain is not worth the actual human grief you'll inflict, again, not to your opponents, but to your own subjects, unless they are already dying like mad due to the guys you went to war against or are seriously threatened to, I guess. (See: how Dieter should have preempted Grom)

But the Dawi situation definitely does not apply.

Also, an "easy" war? Against the Dawi? That was a very critical fail any way you slice it. A person that was actually competent in Martial would advise against it, because even a win would be bloody. Him having quote high martial unquote is even more damning for his competence, because he should have known better about the millitary capacity of his ally and how much a victory would cost.
 
deathofrats0808 said:
Eh, that depends on your perspective. IMO, Caledor didn't want to avert the war, he wanted to prove he was the equal of his incredibly successful father by crushing a bunch of upstarts. That's not exactly malicious behaviour. Also, going to war because you think you'd win isn't inherently malicious anyway. It's the only sensible reason to go to war that isn't "because otherwise my country will be destroyed". It says nothing about your motives for going to war with a particular opponent.
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Malicious means "intending to do harm". I see no way to interpret what Caledor did as not having intended to do harm to anyone. You could argue he only wanted to hurt the Dwarves, but any person with half a braincell can tell that going to war with the Dwarves would hurt the Elves immeasurably.
 
I think Caledor II thought that with the dwarves shown their proper place they'd knuckle their brows and never talk back to their betters again. His profound non-understanding of dwarven psychology meant he didn't realise they'd go full take-no-prisoners berserkermode instead.
 
storryeater said:
Even on an "easy" war, even if you do not care at all for your opponent's lives, you'd be spending the lives of your own citizens like cheap currency. There are cases where such a thing may be preferable, see: defensive wars, especially against chaos, and some gnarly edge cases I feel are too sidetracking to discuss. But otherwise, whatever "benefit" your empire will gain is not worth the actual human grief you'll inflict, again, not to your opponents, but to your own subjects, unless they are already dying like mad due to the guys you went to war against or are seriously threatened to, I guess. (See: how Dieter should have preempted Grom)

But the Dawi situation definitely does not apply.

Also, an "easy" war? Against the Dawi? That was a very critical fail any way you slice it. A person that was actually competent in Martial would advise against it, because even a win would be bloody. Him having quote high martial unquote is even more damning for his competence, because he should have known better about the millitary capacity of his ally and how much a victory would cost.
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The idea that territory or prestige is not worth the lives spent to gain it is a relatively new one in history. There's a reason people have fought so many wars in history and it's not because people believe war to be great fun.

The Dwarfs also thought they'd have an easy war. One of the points the war establishes is that althought the Dwarfs and Elves had been friends for millennia, they didn't really understand each other, or how devastating the war would be.

Codex said:
Malicious means "intending to do harm". I see no way to interpret what Caledor did as not having intended to do harm to anyone. You could argue he only wanted to hurt the Dwarves, but any person with half a braincell can tell that going to war with the Dwarves would hurt the Elves immeasurably.
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Malicious in his poistion as Phoenix King then, whose job s not to care about the Dwarfs at all.

See above about how both sides badly underestimated each other. Caledor and most of Ulthuan had very little actual contact with the Dwarfs. It's far from difficult to see why they'd assume they'd thrash what appeared to be an opponent of much less strength.
 
We tend to conflate malicious with malice, which is the intention or desire to do evil; ill will. I think that might be the case here, in which case I'd simply adjust to saying that while Caledor II could be both incompetent and malicious, his actions do not necessarily indicate malice.
 
Altom said:
Considering that Caledor II was the guy who minmaxed Martial at the expense of every other stat, I would argue that an invasion of Ulthian would be the only scenario he would be good at.
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I mean, he doesn't exactly have any martial achievements.

(Part of his problem, there, the fact that he felt overshadowed by his father)

To quote one post Boney had, the Dwarfs sieged Tor Alessi 14 times- it fell the 14th, the only time that Caledor II was in command.

And there's not inherently any shame in losing a duel against a High King, but I'm not sure there's any duels Caledor II won, either.
 
Mopman43 said:
I mean, he doesn't exactly have any martial achievements.

(Part of his problem, there, the fact that he felt overshadowed by his father)

To quote one post Boney had, the Dwarfs sieged Tor Alessi 14 times- it fell the 14th, the only time that Caledor II was in command.

And there's not inherently any shame in losing a duel against a High King, but I'm not sure there's any duels Caledor II won, either.
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He killed the High King's son, which inspired the hatred that further fueled the war. Gotrek Starbreaker had a personal grudge to settle when they fought.

Side note, Starbreaker might be one of the coolest titles a Dwarf has ever had.
 
storryeater said:
Even on an "easy" war, even if you do not care at all for your opponent's lives, you'd be spending the lives of your own citizens like cheap currency. There are cases where such a thing may be preferable, see: defensive wars, especially against chaos, and some gnarly edge cases I feel are too sidetracking to discuss. But otherwise, whatever "benefit" your empire will gain is not worth the actual human grief you'll inflict, again, not to your opponents, but to your own subjects, unless they are already dying like mad due to the guys you went to war against or are seriously threatened to, I guess. (See: how Dieter should have preempted Grom)
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It was in fact the dwarfs who went to war and attacked first. Sure, Caledor wounded their pride beyond belief and was very disrespectful, but actually going to war about that is quite the overreaction.

From the wiki: War of the Beard

Caledor II recklessly denied the charges against him and the Asur, and refused to even investigate the origin of the attacks. When Grimbok demanded once again that if the Elven court could not discover who of their number was responsible for instigating the unrest then the Court themselves would be held accountable, Caledor became uncontrollably angry at Grimbok. Fearing for his reputation, Caledor ordered that Grimbok be shaved off his beard and expelled from Ulthuan, gravely insulting him, the High King and the whole Dwarf race by extension. Grimbok returned home, humiliated but with purpose. Starbreaker, upon learning the terrible truth, immediately ordered the forges and armouries to begin preparing for war. Grimbok himself later became a Slayer due to the shame the incident placed upon him.
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After mustering for almost a year, Dawi throngs marched to war on the Elves, drawing troops from the far ends of the Dwarfen realm. Ironbreakers of Karaz-a-Karak marched with Longbeards of Karak Azgal, Slayers from Karak Kadrin marched with Hammerers of Ekrund. Upon reaching Tor Alessi, Gotrek made an oath that he would extract recompense either in gold or blood from the High Elves or he would shave his beard. With a desire to avenge their injured pride, the Dwarfs were not about to let their King break his promise. Upon hearing of the assault on Tor Alessi, Caledor was outraged and ordered his generals to send an enormous fleet to relieve the city. The force that left Ulthuan was truly huge, dwarfing any navy before or since, and though the Council of Princes was worried that this would leave their lands undefended, Caledor was determined.
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I don't recommend the Wiki for War of Vengeance. It treats all sources as equally canonical and juggles all of them to attempt to make sense of the constant contradictions in the lore. Every time the War of Vengeance is recounted, there's something new or different that changes how it's perceived. It's complicated.
 
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