If the aftermath of the boss fight is of any indication that guy earned it. But i digress.
Warhammer Fantasy: Divided Loyalties - an Advisor's Quest
- Thread starter Boney
- Start date
- Fantasy Users' Choice!
-
- Tags
- warhammer warhammer fantasy fantasy be gay do crimes (gay) female protagonist pansexual protagonist ck2 quest divided loyalties mountain vietnam ranald is real this is a dwarf quest (dwarfs) this is maybe an elf quest this is not a vampire quest this is not an empire quest try it and find out open voting
Voted best in category in the Users' Choice awards.
Not exactly.
The Dawi were attacked first by Malekith's forces (whom they thought were Asur because the distinction was unclear) - so like reasonable people they tried diplomacy. Caledor utterly rejected diplomacy; he didn't just insult a high ranking Dawi but the personal representative of the High King.
In effect he personally insulted the entire Karaz Ankor - probably a lot more than what he intended to given the cultural importance of beards but even in the elf understanding of diplomacy it was still effectively saying 'come at me if you're hard enough' and surprise the Dawi were hard enough.
K von Carstein
Likes to go for a walk
- Location
- Belgium
- Pronouns
- He
Yes, but I was specifically answering to the argument that he was malicious because he declared war against the dwarfs and declaring war is nearly always malicious. He didn't declare the war, but he was too incompetent to to realize his actions made war inevitable.
- Location
- Utrecht
To give the dude some credit, if the Dwarfs knew he was there, they would have fought twice as hard, and would have been even more bloody minded than usual.
And the Phoenix crown is nothing of not noticeable.
- Location
- Greece
There is a reason diplomats are sacred, and it is not "honor". It is because if you attack them, you are signposting that there is no possible avenue of discussion. There are very, very few surest ways to cause war than to make diplomacy unreliable and dangerous for the diplomat. At this point, it becomes one of those gnarly cases, because the other side's contempt is obvious- if they are willing to burn all bridges and insult your efforts for a peaceful resolution, what else are they willing to do? What will they do to your people tomorrow, that you have no way to redress? Are you effectively ceding all authority to them? Are they declaring war?
No, getting the door slammed on your diplomacy by a state that seems to be belligerent against your people is absolutely a declaration of war, because at that stage, you have effectively given up any pretense of not going to war, and the enemy has to prepare their defenses or strike first. If Caledor II didn't understand something so absolutely basic in any form of state making, then I think Dieter IV may have actually been more competent.
Last edited:
deathofrats0808
Don’t think of it as dying; just as leaving early
- Location
- Earth
True, but I've always felt the Dwarfen ambassador could have handled making the accusations better. Seems like the thing for a quiet chat in a little side room, not announcements in front of court.
Also, if you do something a dozen times, you get to learn what works and what doesn't. The fact they even had to siege it that often probably says more about how determined the Elves were to keep the city than the failure of the Dwarfs to take it.
pucflek
Verified simpleton
- Location
- Czech Republic
That would require Dwarfs being anything other than dwarfs.
- Location
- Greece
While I am of the strong opinion that being unsubtle did not justify... anything Caledor II had done, especially since it was elves that seemed like the apparent aggressors and elves that closed the door to diplomacy...
Thorek certainly does seem capable of basic subtlety. I imagine the chosen Dwarf diplomat to their best allies should be at least as good as Thorek in this. If Caledor II was not a giga idiot. The Dawi could have handled it better. They just didn't handle it as badly as king Caledisaster.
In the 1200s, the Mongol Empire under Genghis Khan sent a large trade caravan along the silk road and through the Khwarezmian Empire, who was at the time at least friendly with the Mongols. For unclear reasons - possible because of a perceived insult, possibly paranoia, possibly greed - the governor of the city of Otrar arrested and executed everyone in the caravan and seized and sold the goods. Genghis sent a trio of diplomats to the Khwarazmian Shah to demand an explanation and the punishment of the city governor, and the Shah executed one of the diplomats and shaved the beards of the other two. Despite being bogged down in a rebellion in Siberia and a war with half of China at the time, the Mongols sent an army and wiped out something like 90% of the Khwarezmian population in two years.
You don't fuck with the diplomats. If a ruler will execute a diplomat during peacetime then there's no point sending one to sue for peace during war, and at that point war can only end with one side being wiped off the map.
You don't fuck with the diplomats. If a ruler will execute a diplomat during peacetime then there's no point sending one to sue for peace during war, and at that point war can only end with one side being wiped off the map.
Last edited:
Mopman43
Mountain-Hermit of Nitpeak
- Location
- Vermont
Heh, funny thing about Thorek's entrance to Laurelorn- if he hadn't had Mathilde there he would have been speaking of Caradryel as a positive example to follow to the Eonir, when the Eonir on him is "that bastard that abandoned us".
Things would have been off to a great start.
Edit: Ignore the above
Last edited:
Codex
Fantasy Addict
- Pronouns
- She/Her
He said Bel Shanaar, not Caradryel:
Bel Shanaar is like, the only King other than Aenarion that Laurelorn probably doesn't have a grudge against.
Caledor responded to questions of why his people were raiding the dwarfs with castration. Saying he didn't understand such a fundamental social aspect of what had been a close ally for centuries and that he committed that crime by accident is absurd. Responding with anything but war would be an admission that the Karaz Ankor was a lesser state and that it is the right of elves to raid dwarfs. I feel comfortable saying the dwarfs made the right decision.
I understand the urge to say that war is always the stupid option, that cooler heads can always find a better path. But Malekith wasn't going to end the raids, and Ulthuan wasn't going to admit to the dark elves' existence. Saying the dwarfs should've kept sending diplomats to be humiliated or killed rather than defend themselves feels cruel. The way to avert the war — beyond, of course, strangling Malekith in his crib — is to not put Caledor on the throne. Everything after that was inevitable.
I understand the urge to say that war is always the stupid option, that cooler heads can always find a better path. But Malekith wasn't going to end the raids, and Ulthuan wasn't going to admit to the dark elves' existence. Saying the dwarfs should've kept sending diplomats to be humiliated or killed rather than defend themselves feels cruel. The way to avert the war — beyond, of course, strangling Malekith in his crib — is to not put Caledor on the throne. Everything after that was inevitable.
Mopman43
Mountain-Hermit of Nitpeak
- Location
- Vermont
Huh, never mind then. Was sure he said Caradryel.
Bel Shanaar had (has) an advantage no other PK had: a distinct uninterest in being anywhere near the Phoenix court, even if he cant go running around the world anymore.
Elf Court: sir! we need you at the throne building a complex web of plans and plots!
Bel:... Hello, Im not here right now, I've gone to [place] to do [thing], please leave a message after the mystical construct beeps....
Elfs: sir, that only worked the first time, please get out from under the bed...
Bel: GO AWAY.
Last edited:
Mopman43
Mountain-Hermit of Nitpeak
- Location
- Vermont
Er, you sure you aren't thinking of Finubar?
.... elf names are hard....
Mopman43
Mountain-Hermit of Nitpeak
- Location
- Vermont
Bel Shanaar was the one after Aenarion who was killed by Malekith.
Had a pretty pleasant reign up until the whole thing with the Pleasure Cults and Malekith's coup attempt happened.
Last edited:
Droman
𐤊𐤍𐤏𐤍
In an alternate timeline, Malkeith appears during the War of the Beard and forms an alliance with the Dawi to 'retake' his patrimony from perfidious Caledor...
To steal a couple of lines and mangle them horribly...
Caledor II: The Dawi should know when to bend the knee.
Gotrek Starbreaker: Would the Asur, Phoenix King? Would you?
Last edited:
- Location
- Moscow
It wasn't effectively saying that. He literally said that on top of de-bearding the diplomat. To quote the wiki,
- Location
- Greece
Caledor II: The Dawi should know when to bend the knee.
Gotrek Starbreaker: Dawi do not have knees.
Oh, I know who they are, I just got the names swapped n my head so I thought Thorek was taking about Finubar.
That whole thing now makes more sense to me
- Location
- A Pit Of My Own Making
- Pronouns
- He/Him
I'm not 100% sure this is a joke.
Has it ever been said in WHF canon that dwarfs have knees?
- Location
- Leeds
Didn't all of Greece denounce Sparta for throwing the Persians in the well?
- Pronouns
- They/Them
Personally I feel the more moral path - and more insulting - would be for the dawi to have 'conquered' the Old World Asur. Or more accurately, swiped them out from underneath the Phoenix King by promising them equal representation to dawi subjects under the High King, then just slam the fuck out of Ulthuan when they try to reconquer. The outright extermination wasn't just atrocious, evil and insane, it was inelegant. As umgak as a beastman's loincloth.