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Warhammer Fantasy: Divided Loyalties - an Advisor's Quest

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I would like to point out that Herodotus is know by historians as "the father of lies", and that his "History" isn't a factual report of the Persian wars, but actually a travel guide that evolved into a recollection of the wars stitched together from the various oral accounts he heard whilst travelling across the Greek world.

Now that's not to say his work doesn't have value; it's a fascinating insight into the people and cultures of the time period. But it isn't accurate, and many of the events he describes may not have happened as he said they did.
 
Whether Herodotus' version of those events were factual or fiction isn't relevant to the topic at hand, because this isn't being looked to for information about the historical actions of Sparta or Athens, it's being looked to for insight into the cultural beliefs of the time. If it's true, then it indicates a widespread belief that diplomats are sacrosanct; if it's not, it makes no sense as propaganda unless that belief exists.
 
True, but that just shows how off topic, me and deathofrats, were to be discussing which event are more trustworthy than others as Herodotus's reliability does matter to that discussion.
 
Got a PDF copy of the new WFRP book and skimming through it now. The current highlight being a dwarf smith detailing how human suits of armour work in grumbling detail.

But I'm now getting to the bits about Tilla and the cult of Myrmidia. Might do a big post about it when I get there.
 
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Incredibly important question that came to mind.

What is the DL cast's opinion on the age old "Dogs vs Cats" debate?

I'm already stuck on Mathilde. On one hand, Ranald and cats. On the other, Wolf. Same with Panoramia. On one hand, she loves Wolf. On the other, she loves Mathilde, who is basically a cat. Johann is simpler, I think he's a dog guy. It gets harder from there.
 
deathofrats0808 said:
The Dwarfs appear to have had very little contact with Ulthuan proper. Canonically it's said they judged Ulthuan's strength by "the least of its provinces" which I take to mean the Old World colonies.
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Do you think that they would have acted any different if they had a more accurate picture of Ulthuan's capabilities or internal structure (but still didn't know about the civil war and/or Dark Elves)?
deathofrats0808 said:
Sure, but it's equally as valid to say that Athens actually did it and teh stuff about Sparta was propaganda. Or that the whole event was propaganda, because all it really does is further the whole free Greece vs slave Persia thing the Classical Greeks loved.
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Which is completely insane when thinking of who made more use of institutional slavery.
Codex said:
Incredibly important question that came to mind.

What is the DL cast's opinion on the age old "Dogs vs Cats" debate?

I'm already stuck on Mathilde. On one hand, Ranald and cats. On the other, Wolf. Same with Panoramia. On one hand, she loves Wolf. On the other, she loves Mathilde, who is basically a cat. Johann is simpler, I think he's a dog guy. It gets harder from there.
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My stance is that it is a weird false dichotomy. I've had dogs that I loved and I've had cats that I loved. I loved them in different ways and for different reasons. They also loved each other at times.

Johann has large rats, of whom I am sure that they have at least a couple of more cat-like than dog-like traits. Because they aren't either of the two.
 
Rafin said:
My stance is that it is a weird false dichotomy. I've had dogs that I loved and I've had cats that I loved. I loved them in different ways and for different reasons. They also loved each other at times.

Johann has large rats, of whom I am sure that they have at least a couple of more cat-like than dog-like traits. Because they aren't either of the two.
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I don't think anyone in this thread takes the debate seriously. It's a fun lighthearted topic, not a serious debate.
 
Ok, for once the new stuff is actually pretty chunky (which is hard when you want to reword bits here and there), will have to think about this, maybe break it down into a few posts.

but something for the thread to chew on.

The Big differences between Tileans and Estalins in regards to Myrmidian Theology. (UP in ARMS, page 63)
The IssueTileansEstalins
Centre of cult authorityL'Ultima Aquila Isabella Giovanna Luccelli is the head of the cult, and ought to move its centre to the High Temple in RemasLa Aguila Ultima Isabella Giovanna Luccelli is the High Priestess at The Archecclesiastium, the chief temple in Magritta
The legitimacy of Bellona MyrmidiaLiteral truth of Myrmidia's life and achievementsA collection of folklore and fairy tales, of spiritual importance but not historical fact
The legitimacy of Bellum StrategiaApocryphal ramblings that may inspire the faithful but hold no true veracityThe holy revelation of Myrmidia's manifestation as a goddess incarnate in Magritta
The legitimacy of The Book of WarAn important work in understanding the precepts a good Myrmidian ought to abide by, and an account of twelve battles fought under the generalship of MyrmidiaAn important work in understanding the precepts a good Myrmidian ought to abide by, and an account of twelve battles fought under the guidance of generals inspired by Myrmidian principles
Myrmidia was previously a goddess of Civilisation and companion to TylosCommonly understood to be fact or at least a respected legendDismissed as a Tilean myth
The belief that a Myrmidian classical age…began in Remas, led by Myrmidia herself, and conquered Estaliabegan in Magritta, was either led by Myrmidia herself or those who were inspired by her and conquered Tilea
Enjoy the favour of…the Order of the Eaglethe Order of the Blazing Sun
The belief that Myrmidia spent time as a mortal…is hugely important and proper to all true Myrmidiansis optional and of secondary importance to understanding what she represents
 
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Jyn Ryvia said:
L'Ultima Aquila Isabella Giovanna Luccelli is the head of the cult, and ought to move its centre to the High Temple in Remas
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Remas is in Tilea, but you have it under Estalian, so I assume that's a mistake in the copying, rather than being from the published book?

Otherwise, it's fantastic work, thanks. Lovely to have them expound on the differing opinions between Estalians and Tileans at greater length.

EDIT: I've also noticed that they have not changed the L'Ultima between Editions. It's still Isabella, just like Tome of Salvation 2nd Edition. A Tilean woman who left for Magritta instead of staying in Remas and causing outrage in Tilea.
 
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Codex said:
Remas is in Tilea, but you have it under Estalian, so I assume that's a mistake in the copying, rather than being from the published book?

Otherwise, it's fantastic work, thanks. Lovely to have them expound on the differing opinions between Estalians and Tileans at greater length.

EDIT: I've also noticed that they have not changed the L'Ultima between Editions. It's still Isabella, just like Tome of Salvation 2nd Edition. A Tilean woman who left for Magritta instead of staying in Remas and causing outrage in Tilea.
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thanks, had it the other way until I changed it.
 
Codex said:
Incredibly important question that came to mind.

What is the DL cast's opinion on the age old "Dogs vs Cats" debate?

I'm already stuck on Mathilde. On one hand, Ranald and cats. On the other, Wolf. Same with Panoramia. On one hand, she loves Wolf. On the other, she loves Mathilde, who is basically a cat. Johann is simpler, I think he's a dog guy. It gets harder from there.
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Dogs are the pets of Humans, Humans are the pets of Cats, Dragons are basically big cats and thus on top of the hierarchy, they all have their place.
 
I also find the expansion on Order of the Eagle being aligned with Tilea and Knights of the Blazing Sun being aligned with Estalia to be interesting, because this is something that could be inferred from 2nd Edition. In 2nd Edition, the Knights of the Blazing Sun have a chapterhouse in Talabecland where they keep an overland route open for pilgrimage from the Empire to Magritta, which of course incenses the Tilean Myrmidians who view Remas as the centre of Myrmidian worship. The Order of the Eagle on the other hand, is led by this guy in canon, Lorenzo Di Marco, the Eagle of the North:

"For most Myrmidians, the posting of Eagle of the North is seen as a banishment. Living amongst the brutish and superstitious northerners in their cold and depressing country is not something most Tileans would ask for. However, Lorenzo di Marco is not most Tileans—for he does not see banishment, he sees potential.

The current Eagle of the North is an insanely ambitious man. He plans an expansion of Myrmidian worship unlike anything seen before. He looks to the Empire and sees a troubled people who need new guidance. Sigmar has proven too weak to keep Chaos at bay, and his cult is rife with divisions. Ulric has proven to be too brutal, and is unacceptable to the increasingly urbane middle classes. Myrmidia, di Marco knows, is the perfect answer to the Empire's problems.

Of course, the Ulricans and Sigmarites are already moving against this threat, but di Marco is a tactician, and this is a campaign he has planned for a long time. As far as he is concerned, there is a new war brewing amongst the cults, and it is a war he does not intend to lose." Page 45 Tome of Salvation

Order of the Eagle are situated in Nuln and are primarily in charge of furthering the spread of Myrmidian worship in all its forms, whereas the Knights of the Blazing Sun are a famous and reliable Knightly Order who spread the word of Myrmidia through action. The Orders of the Righteous Spear are a number of smaller Knightly Orders under the control of the Eagles across the Empire, having an incredibly wide but shallow coverage of the Empire. Blazing Sun are not under the direct control of the Eagles, which irks Lorenzo. It's a complicated political situation, but I don't think it's quite started to escalate to any notable levels by DL's current time.
 
I have a theory that the gods, for all their might, the ability to act through their most faithful and even the ability to give divine revelations, are incapable of influencing how they are viewed and worshipped (with the sole exception of the ability to give scriptures exactly once). Their interpretation is squarely in the hands of mortals and the most they can do are long-winded plots that may or may not result in shifts within their cults, but nothing direct.

Religious schisms are my biggest evidence for this theory. They usually end badly and weaken the cult in general, so there is, in most cases, no reason for the god to tolerate them. The varying interpretation of scriptures, even those that don't result in real schisms, is another. I think if the gods could answer the questions about their nature and scripture that naturally arise as years pass and new challenges are encoutered - well, they would.
 
Aule said:
I have a theory that the gods, for all their might, the ability to act through their most faithful and even the ability to give divine revelations, are incapable of influencing how they are viewed and worshipped (with the sole exception of the ability to give scriptures exactly once). Their interpretation is squarely in the hands of mortals and the most they can do are long-winded plots that may or may not result in shifts within their cults, but nothing direct.

Religious schisms are my biggest evidence for this theory. They usually end badly and weaken the cult in general, so there is, in most cases, no reason for the god to tolerate them. The varying interpretation of scriptures, even those that don't result in real schisms, is another. I think if the gods could answer the questions about their nature and scripture that naturally arise as years pass and new challenges are encoutered - well, they would.
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The Horned Rat can make its will very clear though. It ended civil wars, it can let daemons talk for itself.

I wonder if that would be the result of its different nature or if there is some trick other gods could use too.
 
Artemis1992 said:
The Horned Rat can make its will very clear though. It ended civil wars, it can let daemons talk for itself.

I wonder if that would be the result of its different nature or if there is some trick other gods could use too.
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I wonder if this is because, ironically, the Skaven are the race most devoted to their god. Singular. (Apart from whatever Clan Pestilens are doing)
 
Artemis1992 said:
The Horned Rat can make its will very clear though. It ended civil wars, it can let daemons talk for itself.

I wonder if that would be the result of its different nature or if there is some trick other gods could use too.
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Well.

The Four, despite being commonly called gods, are of a different nature. My understanding is that they are essentially very big and very strong daemons, not divinities in traditional sense. Perhaps Horned Rat and Hashut are somewhere in the middle? Former demons ascended to godhood but still retaining some of the demonic nature? Demons outside of the Four's control pretending to be gods?
 
Aule said:
I have a theory that the gods, for all their might, the ability to act through their most faithful and even the ability to give divine revelations, are incapable of influencing how they are viewed and worshipped (with the sole exception of the ability to give scriptures exactly once). Their interpretation is squarely in the hands of mortals and the most they can do are long-winded plots that may or may not result in shifts within their cults, but nothing direct.

Religious schisms are my biggest evidence for this theory. They usually end badly and weaken the cult in general, so there is, in most cases, no reason for the god to tolerate them. The varying interpretation of scriptures, even those that don't result in real schisms, is another. I think if the gods could answer the questions about their nature and scripture that naturally arise as years pass and new challenges are encoutered - well, they would.
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So, there's this rather loony camp of Shallyans who interpret the selflessness and asceticism thing as "As long as there is any suffering anywhere in the world, no one is allowed to be happy", and have a tendency to end up running orphanages, which I imagine would be rather miserable places. Devotees of Shallya, bleeding-heart goddess of alleviating misery and suffering, who probably would tell them to cut it out if She could.

So that's another point in favor of Order gods having trouble with direct communication.
 
StormySky said:
So, there's this rather loony camp of Shallyans who interpret the selflessness and asceticism thing as "As long as there is any suffering anywhere in the world, no one is allowed to be happy", and have a tendency to end up running orphanages, which I imagine would be rather miserable places. Devotees of Shallya, bleeding-heart goddess of alleviating misery and suffering, who probably would tell them to cut it out if She could.

So that's another point in favor of Order gods having trouble with direct communication.
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To be fair to those people, one of Shallya's strictures is "Don't waste your energy on your own happiness". It's a bit of a stretch to take this from your own happiness and extend it to everyone else, but I can see the thought process since Shallya seems to encourage a miserable clergy.
 
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