shepsquared
Erratic Aussie
- Location
- Melbourne, Australia
Dieter IV could have irrevocably screwed the Empire's relationship with the Karaz Ankor and didn't. So he's not the worst king possible.
Warhammer Fantasy: Divided Loyalties - an Advisor's Quest
- Thread starter Boney
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- Fantasy Users' Choice!
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- warhammer warhammer fantasy fantasy be gay do crimes (gay) female protagonist pansexual protagonist ck2 quest divided loyalties mountain vietnam ranald is real this is a dwarf quest (dwarfs) this is maybe an elf quest this is not a vampire quest this is not an empire quest try it and find out open voting
Voted best in category in the Users' Choice awards.
- Location
- Canada
I can't find any outright terrible High Kings on the level of Dieter IV or Caledor II
But I have found some High Kings who'd made questionable decisions to varying degrees
Though a large part of the problem may be the lack of information to go off of
Nurn Shieldbreaker (-1492 IC); he was the first High King to make notable contact with early Human Tribes while he was leading a war party to go hunt Greenskins
When approached the Humans naturally fled from the large group of heavily armed strangers who they couldn't understand
Weirdly, Nurn apparently took great offense to their presumed xenophobia and cravenness, enough that he actually entered the encounter into the Book of Grudges, and famously deemed the Humans Umgal (those who are shoddy/make shoddy things) who "needed to be taught a swift lesson in respect"
As we know, Nurn's words would end up sticking and humans are to this day known by the Dwarves as Umgi
This is the only info noted about Nurn Shieldbreaker, so it's all I have to go off about him, and he seems like the worst of Dwarven elitism and pride
Skorri Morgrimsson (-975 IC); the only info about him is that he led a failed and probably extremely costly attempt to retake Karak Ungor. His only son Furgil and his closest friend Gudrun were both lost when they overextended, and Skorri himself died shortly after he was forced to lead the remnants of his army back to Karaz-a-Karak.
Logan Proudbeard (-380 IC); the only info on him expounds on how he was captured by an Orc Warboss called Ungrok Beardburner, who had laid siege to Karaz-a-Karak, and how he suffered "great humiliation" at the hands of his tormentors
Probably best to never talk to the Dwarves about this one, assuming they haven't thoroughly buried any and all records of that particular mess to the point that its been lost to time
Kurgan Ironbeard (-15 IC); famously he's the one that befriended Sigmar after being saved from a bunch of orcs by him and the two established the alliance between the Karaz Ankor and the Empire
The questionable bit is that Kurgan apparently needed to be saved because he somehow got captured by a mere 20 Orcs and an assortment of Goblins that ambushed him while he was travelling with a caravan
Maybe the unlisted number of Goblins was very large?
Then again Sigmar apparently saved him singlehandedly
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Mopman43
Mountain-Hermit of Nitpeak
- Location
- Vermont
Sources vary (as ever).
If you believe Children of the Horned Rat, he was actually captured by Skaven who sold him, Throne of Power and all, to those Orcs in exchange for Warpstone.
Feel like that just raises further questions, personally.
- Location
- Oklahoma
I feel like that says more about the Karaz Ankor than Dieter IV.
They stuck with the Empire during the thousand years that the Age of Three Emperors lasted, after all.
K von Carstein
Likes to go for a walk
- Location
- Belgium
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- He
If you're arguing that it was Caledor's elvish nature that prolonged the war, that's not something he had control over.
this also applys to the dwarves
- Location
- United States
I think the entire disaster that was his reign could boil down to how self control and Caledor II just didn't mix.
K von Carstein
Likes to go for a walk
- Location
- Belgium
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- He
Again, Dieter IV. The circumstances they both existed in were very different, but where Caledor was « only » impulsive Dieter was often actively malicious. For example, he exacerbated tensions between the Colleges for his own amusement, leading to the Night of the Arcane Duels and the outlawing of the Colleges. Making your only magical institution fight a mini civil war is exceptionally stupid.
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- Location
- United States
So, would you say that while Caledor II was worse for the world in terms of overall effects, Dieter IV was probably worse as a person?
One was incompetent, while the other was incompetent and vile?
One was incompetent, while the other was incompetent and vile?
Mopman43
Mountain-Hermit of Nitpeak
- Location
- Vermont
The best thing I can say about Caledor II is that, faced with an invasion of Ulthuan, he probably would have put some kind of effort into defending it.
Might not have done it well, but that's a separate matter.
Dieter IV didn't make even a token effort to stop Grom. Far as I'm aware, it's generally believed that Grom wouldn't have been anywhere near as bad if he'd been opposed early instead of getting the chance to increase his forces with all the Forest Goblins living in the Empire.
Might not have done it well, but that's a separate matter.
Dieter IV didn't make even a token effort to stop Grom. Far as I'm aware, it's generally believed that Grom wouldn't have been anywhere near as bad if he'd been opposed early instead of getting the chance to increase his forces with all the Forest Goblins living in the Empire.
I like to imagine that what actually happened is that the skaven killed everyone around the throne, couldn't actually deal with the throne itself, and "sold" it to orcs without ever making the thing budge an inch just so it would be someone else's headache.
I don't think it's like Mjolnir that can only be lifted by the worthy, I think it's just heavy (and powerful, but in a different way).
I was less thinking, "unable to lift," and more, "the dwarf king keeps smiting the skaven-slaves I am trying to capture him with."
- Location
- Aotearoa
I'd like to submit one more, for your consideration.
Yes, he had incomplete information. Thorgrim didn't know we had a Mathilde (and her
"Deal-bargain of a lifetime! One Beardthing King complete with Throne Accessory. As Is, Where Is. Buyer must collect-pickup from location. Trust-believe I, completely legitimate one-time sale-offer. 20 chunks of Warpstone, OBO. Hurry before last worthless wretch-slaves expire and opportunity vanishes!"
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Considering that Caledor II was the guy who minmaxed Martial at the expense of every other stat, I would argue that an invasion of Ulthian would be the only scenario he would be good at.
Tasoli
Life is for Living
- Location
- Behind the Keyboard.
Last gem we had from him is Melekith being Chosen Phoenix King during the end times.
K von Carstein
Likes to go for a walk
- Location
- Belgium
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- He
Yes, that's exactly my point.🙂
I'd like to submit one more, for your consideration.
Yes, he had incomplete information. Thorgrim didn't know we had a Mathilde (and herungodly luck) on our side, nor Gazuls Flaming Eye. But still. It really pissed Belegar off, widening that fracture line in the Karaz Ankor.
"Deal-bargain of a lifetime! One Beardthing King complete with Throne Accessory. As Is, Where Is. Buyer must collect-pickup from location. Trust-believe I, completely legitimate one-time sale-offer. 20 chunks of Warpstone, OBO. Hurry before last worthless wretch-slaves expire and opportunity vanishes!"
I think we should make a distinction between those who are godawful incompetent like Dieter and those kings who have simply made a bad decision once or a small number of times.
Yes Thorgrim fucked up, but that was not because he was fundamentally bad at kingship. It is because he was acting off the preconceptions of a lifetime. It made sense to him not just practically, but emotionally that K8P would fall. Even if he did have all the information (and I would argue that he could have known about the eye if he had looked) he would still think the battle was lost because that would have been the template for generations. That says more about the history of the dwarfs in recent years that it does about his decision making prowess or lack thereof IMO.
- Location
- Aotearoa
I want to do a "Mathildes School of Karak Reconquest And Arresting Imperial Decline" here.
- Location
- Utrecht
Also, that continuous alarm for 180 years.
I start getting antsy after minutes in a noisy work environment.
Having to work through that constant alarm, i'd want to watch the world burn too
- Location
- USA
More recently, wasn't he one of the writers of Vermintide 2? (I don't remember if he was there for 1 as well.) So I hesitate to say that he is always bad.
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Codex
Fantasy Addict
- Pronouns
- She/Her
He gave Kemperbad official dispensation to become a Free City under no direct control by anyone, including the Emperor, and the price for that was a couple of shipments of Dieter's favorite wine up to Altdorf every year. Even now, Kemperbad is still a Free City and independent of the Emperor's control because of Dieter's action, and all Kemperbad has to do is ship a bunch of wine every now and then to pay for them being under no authority but themselves.
He accepted constant bribes from the populace in order to fund expeditions to the Border Princes because he wanted his name on the place, but they provided no lasting impact and only resulted in the Empire further weakening itself by the time Grom came in and busted the place. He immediately ran away from the fight instead of fighting back, so much so that the Prince of Altdorf/Reikland had to lead the military effort to fight Grom instead.
Those are only the examples of his incompetence rather than his maliciousness. If he was just malicious I would expect a better job at gouging the populace, but he was bad at even what he spent most of his time doing, which is extorting people for his personal benefit. He sucked all around.
- Location
- Australia
8 years is a bit too long to be called recent.
deathofrats0808
Don’t think of it as dying; just as leaving early
- Location
- Earth
How explicit it is varies, but Ulthuan has been staright up said to be floating before. 7th edition for one.
To be fair that depends what Asurayn is judging for. Whatever his faults, Caledor II has never come off as evil to me, and if all Asuryan is looking for is "are you a terrible person who will do terrible things to the Elves" Caledor II would pass that bar. His problem, at least to my reading of him, is that he was striving to exceed his father's legacy as Phoenix King, but he wasn't his father's equal as a statesman, only as a warrior, so he went ham on opportunites to prove himself that way. I imagine he thought the War of the bEard would be short and easily won and then was just too proud to negotiate (not that negotiations would have worked by then anyway).