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Warhammer Fantasy: Divided Loyalties - an Advisor's Quest

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Codex said:
Honestly, it's the same thing for me. I'm having a blast with Elden Ring and I'm not even playing the game myself. Best game ever, says woman who's never played Elden Ring and just obsessively watches playthroughs.
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I need to get on that one too… there's just so many things to read and watch. It's hard to keep up.
 
ChronOblivion said:
I do entirely get the desire for a pilot, but isn't it a waste to hire a Wizard to fly us around? Isn't she doing her own stuff already that doesn't require being on standby to shuttle Mathilde from place to place? Is it an odd look to have a bunch of wizards to join WEB-MAT as contributing members and then hire a Journeywoman to fly us around in ways that have nothing to do with her magic?
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For question #1, we can't hire randoms without sufficient resistance to sabotage or corruption, and the most readily available way to ensure that is hiring a wizard.
Boney said:
A gyrocopter pilot is a single point of failure that could permanently kill Mathilde and end the quest if corrupted or suborned. If your idea's only line of defence against that is the willpower of a random peasant or engineering apprentice, perhaps you should take it back to the drawing board. And for the record, 'Boney wouldn't end his quest that way' is not a great lynchpin.
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For question #2, this offer happens to tick off a number of boxes:
Boney said:
Rafin said:
Why would she be okay with that? Doesn't she, like, have actual stuff she wants to do instead given her own wizarding ability and engineering aspirations?
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Because it gives her an in on Dwarven engineering and has a high likelihood of exposing her to interesting places and situations, and she can pursue her studies on the side anywhere with a blacksmith.
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deathofrats0808 said:
I know you're joking, but whether Sigmar the man directly became Sigmar the god is something the Colleges aren't sure on IIRC. Like, there's a theory that the god was just created by the worship, and the man never actually transcended.
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The fact that the head of the Sigmarite church is called the Grand Theogonist ('Theogony' being the creation of one or more gods) probably helps that theory stick around for folks who know enough Classical.

Of course a more orthodox interpretation of the title is that the first Grand Theogonist was someone who studied Theogony - who watched how Sigmar became a god - rather than someone who practised Theogony.
 
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I think I havent voted yet, should do that.

Also, I like the general outline of plan Paternity Test Edition v1, Im all for bringing in more people, at least 1 or 2 elven houses, preferably one from the city, one from outside and at least the ambers. Dont think we should go for laying the foundation before at least that is done. Remember, were a dwarf now, so we have a responsibility to do things the right way or not at all :D

[x] [KISLEV] Waystone Project: Hag Witches
[x] [WIDOW] Waystone Project: Ice Witches
 
kingreaper said:
The fact that the head of the Sigmarite church is called the Grand Theogonist ('Theogony' being the creation of one or more gods) probably helps that theory stick around for folks who know enough Classical.

Of course a more orthodox interpretation of the title is that the first Grand Theogonist was someone who studied Theogony - who watched how Sigmar became a god - rather than someone who practised Theogony.
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Or as a compromise that enrages both parties, the first Grand Theogonist helped Sigmar ascend, as in the man, into a god, by playing spotter so to speak, or the like.
 
Burned_Cookie said:
Or as a compromise that enrages both parties, the first Grand Theogonist helped Sigmar ascend, as in the man, into a god, by playing spotter so to speak, or the like.
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The First Grand Theogonist, Johann Helsturm, became the Theogonist around 73 IC and started preaching a few years earlier than that, raving and ranting about Sigmar ascending into godhood. The Cult of Ulric didn't like it, but the populace did, so the Emperor officially enshrined the Cult of Sigmar with Helsturm as its first Theogonist. Sigmar did rule the Empire all the way to 50 IC, so I suppose there is a chance that Helsturm saw him ascend, but I believe he said that he saw Sigmar's ascension in a dream with Ulric crowning Sigmar in the heavens.

In the End Times it's revealed that that's a bit of a farce since Tzeentch captured Sigmar in the Wind of Azyr, preventing him from actually moving into the Warp, but End Times isn't canon here so it doesn't matter too much.
 
Codex said:
The First Grand Theogonist, Johann Helsturm, became the Theogonist around 73 IC and started preaching a few years earlier than that, raving and ranting about Sigmar ascending into godhood. The Cult of Ulric didn't like it, but the populace did, so the Emperor officially enshrined the Cult of Sigmar with Helsturm as its first Theogonist. Sigmar did rule the Empire all the way to 50 IC, so I suppose there is a chance that Helsturm saw him ascend, but I believe he said that he saw Sigmar's ascension in a dream with Ulric crowning Sigmar in the heavens.

In the End Times it's revealed that that's a bit of a farce since Tzeentch captured Sigmar in the Wind of Azyr, preventing him from actually moving into the Warp, but End Times isn't canon here so it doesn't matter too much.
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Arguably seeing him ascend in a dream would count. Especially since it's not like Sigmar died in 50IC. He just left and no one ever found his body, so it's entirely possible that that dream was at the time of Sigmar's ascension.
 
deathofrats0808 said:
Arguably seeing him ascend in a dream would count. Especially since it's not like Sigmar died in 50IC. He just left and no one ever found his body, so it's entirely possible that that dream was at the time of Sigmar's ascension.
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On the one hand, Sigmar was born -30 IC, so at the time he left, he was 80. Generally you'd figure he wouldn't be long for the world traveling alone, by himself, in lands full of gribblies.

On the other hand, it was Sigmar, so I really wouldn't be even slightly surprised if he lived to 100 and died still kicking ass.
 
Mopman43 said:
On the one hand, Sigmar was born -30 IC, so at the time he left, he was 80. Generally you'd figure he wouldn't be long for the world traveling alone, by himself, in lands full of gribblies.

On the other hand, it was Sigmar, so I really wouldn't be even slightly surprised if he lived to 100 and died still kicking ass.
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He also had a boar and a wolf with him when he left, so maybe he wasn't quite alone. Plus 73IC is when Helstrum became the leader of the Cult, not necessarily when he had the dream.
 
Mopman43 said:
On the one hand, Sigmar was born -30 IC, so at the time he left, he was 80. Generally you'd figure he wouldn't be long for the world traveling alone, by himself, in lands full of gribblies.

On the other hand, it was Sigmar, so I really wouldn't be even slightly surprised if he lived to 100 and died still kicking ass.
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Sigmar had soloed a Dragon Ogre Shaggoth with Bronze Age weaponry and made their hide into a cloak before he ever got his hands on Ghal Maraz. The man was built different, to say the absolute least.
 
Codex said:
In the End Times it's revealed that that's a bit of a farce since Tzeentch captured Sigmar in the Wind of Azyr, preventing him from actually moving into the Warp, but End Times isn't canon here so it doesn't matter too much.
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As a thought experiment, if you set aside everything in the End Times and just consider all lore prior to that, is it reasonably possible to make a case for there being a link between Sigmar and Azyr? The only thing I can think of is the Twin-Tailed Comet and I think all the connections between Sigmar and lightning are from Age of Sigmar, but I'm wondering whether the connections between Winds and major figures of the setting is entirely an End Times creation or whether it had already-established lore to tie into.
 
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Boney said:
As a thought experiment, if you set aside everything in the End Times and just consider all lore prior to that, can you make a case for there being a link between Sigmar and Azyr? The only thing I can think of is the Twin-Tailed Comet and I think all the connections between Sigmar and lightning are from Age of Sigmar, but I'm wondering whether the connections between Winds and major figures of the setting is entirely an End Times creation or whether it had already-established lore to tie into.
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Sigmar and Azyr? No, I don't think so, at least not in-universe, although you can pull some Thor parallels without huge difficulties. I suppose you could argue it's a case of reverse connection, wherein Sigmar gets bound to the Wind, and then gains a connection to it.

Some of them work ok though. Alarielle with Life, Gelt and Thorgrim with Metal, Nagash with Shyish, Caradryan with Aqshy. None are particularly inspired or foreshadowed though.
 
Boney said:
As a thought experiment, if you set aside everything in the End Times and just consider all lore prior to that, can you make a case for there being a link between Sigmar and Azyr? The only thing I can think of is the Twin-Tailed Comet and I think all the connections between Sigmar and lightning are from Age of Sigmar, but I'm wondering whether the connections between Winds and major figures of the setting is entirely an End Times creation or whether it had already-established lore to tie into.
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Verena and Ulgu are connected by that one myth about how Hoeth took the sword of a daemon named Ulgu.
 
Raiseth said:
Anyways, back to Hellenism. Apollo, for example, is predominantly a regional Greek god of prophecy, light, sun, music, medicine and whatever, mostly prophecy… You would think. Apollo is mostly a blending of several gods, as far back as 2000 and as early as 500 BCE.
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Honestly, the first time I found out Aphrodite was originally a spartan war goddess probably imported from the cult of Astarte, I was pretty shocked.

It would be like Ranald actually having been Ulric as well before splitting apart.
 
Boney said:
As a thought experiment, if you set aside everything in the End Times and just consider all lore prior to that, can you make a case for there being a link between Sigmar and Azyr? The only thing I can think of is the Twin-Tailed Comet and I think all the connections between Sigmar and lightning are from Age of Sigmar, but I'm wondering whether the connections between Winds and major figures of the setting is entirely an End Times creation or whether it had already-established lore to tie into.
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Most cases of the Winds attaching to particular individuals in End Times are fairly understandable. Thorgrim/Grungni with Chamon, Ungrim/Grimnir with Aqshy, Nagash with Shyish, Alarielle with Ghyran, even Grimgor with Ghur. The most questionable choices are perhaps Tyrion, but I think that's explicitly something stated in the End Times as not having been Teclis' first choice? And I suppose Ulgu with Malekith, but I think that can fit with some twisting. And of course, Sigmar with Azyr. I can't think of much that ties him to Azyr aside from the Comet. Lightning imagery started in End Times with Karl Franz' "Lord of Lightning" special attack and was further enhanced by Age of Sigmar. Now, to be fair, not much is actually said about Sigmar as a person or his proclivities or tendencies aside from smashing things with his hammer, and I never read the novel series about him, so I could have missed something that connects him to Azyr in Fantasy.

It's a bit of a case in which GW tried to crowbar the Winds into the major players of Warhammer Fantasy. I think they did a relatively good job in Age of Sigmar, but it required restructuring and recreating the Lore and adjusting the characters to fit the concept. It didn't fit like a glove, they had to actively work to make things smooth.

This is purely my opinion however, but I haven't made it a secret that I enjoy Age of Sigmar. I like the Eight Winds concept being integrated more heavily into the story, and I always thought the Incarnate concept was cool. Could it have been done better? Hell yeah. The execution leaves much to be desired, but it's honestly an interesting concept that a lot could have been done with if the appropriate build up was provided. Unfortunately, it wasn't, so it seemed to come out of nowhere in End Times because it was one of the main conceits of the setting in Age of Sigmar, and one that I enjoy a lot in that setting, but it sort of came to the detriment of Fantasy.
 
Burned_Cookie said:
Then who was answering all those prayers.
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Sigmar was. Being bound in Azyr is what elevated him to godhood, according to End Times. Supposedly, Tzeentch did this because mortal Sigmar would have gone on to rally all of the Order pantheon to collectively beat down on Chaos once and for all, or something like that.

I know, it doesn't really make much sense to me either.
 
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