Remove ads

Warhammer Fantasy: Divided Loyalties - an Advisor's Quest

Voted best in category in the Users' Choice awards.
Voting will open in 3 hours, 39 minutes
Reader mode
Sir_Travelsalot said:
Sigmar was. Being bound in Azyr is what elevated him to godhood, according to End Times. Supposedly, Tzeentch did this because mortal Sigmar would have gone on to rally all of the Order pantheon to collectively beat down on Chaos once and for all, or something like that.

I know, it doesn't really make much sense to me either.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...
I think it makes the most sense as just dumb Tzeentchien propaganda. Ulric put a powerful follower of his into a poisition to become a god and do part of the legwork makes waaaay more more sense on all front.
 
Codex said:
The most questionable choices are perhaps Tyrion, but I think that's explicitly something stated in the End Times as not having been Teclis' first choice? And I suppose Ulgu with Malekith, but I think that can fit with some twisting.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...
Not sure about Tyrian, but I remember reading somewhere that Teclis originally meant for Malekith to have Aqshy, but lost it or it got stolen or something, and so had to make do with Ulgu.
 
Codex said:
Most cases of the Winds attaching to particular individuals in End Times are fairly understandable. Thorgrim/Grungni with Chamon, Ungrim/Grimnir with Aqshy, Nagash with Shyish, Alarielle with Ghyran, even Grimgor with Ghur. The most questionable choices are perhaps Tyrion, but I think that's explicitly something stated in the End Times as not having been Teclis' first choice? And I suppose Ulgu with Malekith, but I think that can fit with some twisting. And of course, Sigmar with Azyr. I can't think of much that ties him to Azyr aside from the Comet. Lightning imagery started in End Times with Karl Franz' "Lord of Lightning" special attack and was further enhanced by Age of Sigmar. Now, to be fair, not much is actually said about Sigmar as a person or his proclivities or tendencies aside from smashing things with his hammer, and I never read the novel series about him, so I could have missed something that connects him to Azyr in Fantasy.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...
Ulgu for Malekith wasn't Teclis' first choice. His first choice there was to give him Aqshy to draw him more fully into the role of Phoenix King. Hysh Teclis stuck in his staff for some time, and I think his original intent was to use it to cleanse Tyrion of Khaine and restore him to the champion he had once been.
 
Ericwinter said:
Not sure about Tyrian, but I remember reading somewhere that Teclis originally meant for Malekith to have Aqshy, but lost it or it got stolen or something, and so had to make do with Ulgu.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...
Yeah that is the case. The funny thing about the Hysh thing is that Teclis did it after he revived Tyrion after he was killed for being an evil overlord Avatar of Khaine.
 
Burned_Cookie said:
I think it makes the most sense as just dumb Tzeentchien propaganda. Ulric put a powerful follower of his into a poisition to become a god and do part of the legwork makes waaaay more more sense on all front.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...
Except it doesn't really make sense as propaganda either, because it claims that the Order gods could actually deal a decisive victory against all of Chaos, which is rather contrary to their usual narrative of claiming that they are all just delusions of weak southlings who can't possibly ever amount to anything of import or accept the true nature of reality.

It just doesn't make sense in any context, in or out of universe.
 
Andres said:
Qrech is more ingrained specifically in the academic part of Empire cuture. Other parts of the culture isn't something he's had much contact or immersion with (and barely interacted with dwarf culture at all). Even then, he was still very confident that it was important to put information on how Chaos Dwarf tastes into his book. I don't think he's had any exposure to non-skaven corpse-handling practices, much less buy-in.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...
Honestly he's probably more influenced by Ogre culture than Empire, which I doubt would introduce any taboos for eating people.
 
Sir_Travelsalot said:
Except it doesn't really make sense as propaganda either, because it claims that the Order gods could actually deal a decisive victory against all of Chaos, which is rather contrary to their usual narrative of claiming that they are all just delusions of weak southlings who can't possibly ever amount to anything of import or accept the true nature of reality.

It just doesn't make sense in any context, in or out of universe.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...
I mean, it sort of makes sense if you assume Sigmar was ascending and Tzeentch trapped him in the Wind while he was doing that. He wasn't strong enough to escape yet, and Tzeentch is tricky enough to pull it off. You then just have to assume that miracle wielding priests have an alternate explanation. Or that Sigmar could still help them, but not escape. It's not the craziest thing Warhammer has done. Just needs to be pulled off carefully.
 
Codex said:
Most cases of the Winds attaching to particular individuals in End Times are fairly understandable. Thorgrim/Grungni with Chamon, Ungrim/Grimnir with Aqshy, Nagash with Shyish, Alarielle with Ghyran, even Grimgor with Ghur. The most questionable choices are perhaps Tyrion, but I think that's explicitly something stated in the End Times as not having been Teclis' first choice? And I suppose Ulgu with Malekith, but I think that can fit with some twisting. And of course, Sigmar with Azyr. I can't think of much that ties him to Azyr aside from the Comet. Lightning imagery started in End Times with Karl Franz' "Lord of Lightning" special attack and was further enhanced by Age of Sigmar. Now, to be fair, not much is actually said about Sigmar as a person or his proclivities or tendencies aside from smashing things with his hammer, and I never read the novel series about him, so I could have missed something that connects him to Azyr in Fantasy.

It's a bit of a case in which GW tried to crowbar the Winds into the major players of Warhammer Fantasy. I think they did a relatively good job in Age of Sigmar, but it required restructuring and recreating the Lore and adjusting the characters to fit the concept. It didn't fit like a glove, they had to actively work to make things smooth.

This is purely my opinion however, but I haven't made it a secret that I enjoy Age of Sigmar. I like the Eight Winds concept being integrated more heavily into the story, and I always thought the Incarnate concept was cool. Could it have been done better? Hell yeah. The execution leaves much to be desired, but it's honestly an interesting concept that a lot could have been done with if the appropriate build up was provided. Unfortunately, it wasn't, so it seemed to come out of nowhere in End Times because it was one of the main conceits of the setting in Age of Sigmar, and one that I enjoy a lot in that setting, but it sort of came to the detriment of Fantasy.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...

That was my impression too, that it was a completely new idea that they made fit the setting as best they could, but I wasn't entirely sure whether this was a fair assessment or just a product of my dislike of the End Times. Thanks for giving me your take on it.
 
deathofrats0808 said:
I mean, it sort of makes sense if you assume Sigmar was ascending and Tzeentch trapped him in the Wind while he was doing that. He wasn't strong enough to escape yet, and Tzeentch is tricky enough to pull it off. You then just have to assume that miracle wielding priests have an alternate explanation. Or that Sigmar could still help them, but not escape. It's not the craziest thing Warhammer has done. Just needs to be pulled off carefully.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...
Tzeentch plan.
Trap sigmar but allow him to bless clerics but not communicate.
This will cause Empire to produce cultists and allow destruction from the inside?
 
I suppose if you wanted a case for Sigmar being bound to Azyr you could use something like the justification Boney came up for apparition binding: It's a wind which has nothing in particular to do with Sigmar and that makes it the best tool to contain him since he can't manipulate the wind at all. That doesn't really last as far as him eventually ascending with that wind, but it does get you to the starting point.
 
Cheap Orange Knofe said:
Tzeentch plan.
Trap sigmar but allow him to bless clerics but not communicate.
This will cause Empire to produce cultists and allow destruction from the inside?
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...
I mean, if you take the "Sigmar being a god could allow him to unite the other gods to defeat Chaos" thing at face value, allowing (and this is assuming Tzeentch allowed it and it wasn't one of the common holes in his plans) Sigmar clerics but not interaction with the other gods might prevent them looking for him, and also prevent their unification leading to the overthrow of Chaos.

But also, yeah, Tzeentch absolutely would do a plan like that. He's kind of prone to overly complex plans that fail in that way.
 
…If Azyr was supposed to be a trap for Sigmar, wouldn't it make sense that it wasn't something he had any particular connection to? Much like how it's dumb to try trapping Apparitions who eat certain Winds in said Wind. Him turning around and making it his own after End Times is kinda weird, but I assume something happened that let him assimilate its traits and turn the cage into an advantage, or he just learned to adapt.
 
Codex said:
This is purely my opinion however, but I haven't made it a secret that I enjoy Age of Sigmar.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...
I think I've said before that I'm with you on this, the books are on average a lot better than WF.

If I was a more confident writer, I would totally like to do some type of The Collegiate Arcane Alt Mathy story, who has been sent to be an adviser for the new Lord of Lethis.
 
Last edited:
Mopman43 said:
If you were going to associate Sigmar with a Wind, what would you choose?
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...
Hysh is what I'd go for. 2nd Edition in particular kept repeating the point that for all that Sigmar was a Conan-level roidmonster with a magic hammer, the most significant things he did in the founding of the Empire as an entity beyond a web of alliances against greenskin incursion was things like writing laws, standardizing the calendar, planning out a sprawling road network, setting up tax codes and establishing professional armies. The Wind of enlightenment that destroys all that is darkness by its existence feels apt for that.
 
Last edited:
On the topic of planning the next turn I strongly feel we should talk to the Damsels before laying the foundation. They are already aware that we are working on a Waystone project, and they specifically worried about groups being left behind and not benefiting from the project. It also just feels like a big insult to asses their ability to host the project and then not even invite them to the ground breaking. Finally it gives us a chance to test the Lady is a daughter theory.

I also am interested in finishing developing our sword technique, given are predilection to suddenly end up on an adventure.
 
Sir_Travelsalot said:
Hysh is what I'd go for. 2nd Edition in particular kept repeating the point that for all that Sigmar was a Conan-level roidmonster with a magic hammer, the most significant things he did in the founding of the Empire as an entity beyond a web of alliances against greenskin incursion was things like writing laws, standardizing the calendar, planning out a sprawling road network, setting up tax codes. and establishing professional armies. The Wind of enlightenment that destroys all that is darkness by its existence feels apt for that.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...
I honestly think Chanon fits this type of thing better.

Hysh is one of the go to 'protagonist' lores. but standardizing the calendar and road networks is lore of metal themes all the way through.
 
Jyn Ryvia said:
I honestly think Chanon fits this type of thing better.

Hysh is one of the go to 'protagonist' lores. but standardizing the calendar and road networks is lore of metal themes all the way through.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...
Sure, but I'd still argue Hysh to be a closer match than Chamon, since Hysh is more on the enlightenment end of the scale, whereas Chamon trends more towards the realm of pure logic. And for all his foresightfulness and wisdom, Sigmar was still a man who never once wore a helmet to battle as an act of dedication to Ulric. And Hysh also has the angle of being the greatest foe to darkness, which is reflected in him (among several other people) beating Nagash, and being retconned to have been the one to cave in Morkar's skull.
 
Ericwinter said:
…If Azyr was supposed to be a trap for Sigmar, wouldn't it make sense that it wasn't something he had any particular connection to? Much like how it's dumb to try trapping Apparitions who eat certain Winds in said Wind. Him turning around and making it his own after End Times is kinda weird, but I assume something happened that let him assimilate its traits and turn the cage into an advantage, or he just learned to adapt.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...
I think it could make an interesting character beat. He was this powerful and intelligent man who was caught up in something foreign to him, that kept him from helping people and was probably unpleasant to experience; but once he's freed, he devotes himself to mastering the thing that trapped him instead of shying away from it.
 
Reader mode
You must login or register to reply here.
Voting will open in 3 hours, 39 minutes
Remove ads
Back
Top