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Warhammer Fantasy: Divided Loyalties - an Advisor's Quest

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Codex said:
I think cremation is also done to prevent the spread of plagues? I remember it vividly in the End Times, but I'm pretty sure cremating bodies for plague victims is standard practice so the plague doesn't spread.
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For some plagues, it's believed that the souls of those killed by them become Nurgle's property, so there's no more damage to be done by cremation. This is explicitly the case for Nurgle's Rot, and the souls of all that die from it become the demons known as Plaguebearers.

Ct613hulu said:
I am curious about the Amethyst College take on this. Have they tried to conduct empirical research to more precisely determine what happens after death? I can understand that this would be intensely controversial given the religious connotations and connection to necromancy but I would think that the potential benefits would still inspire some serious effort.
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Upon death, the soul goes deeper into the Aethyr. Amethyst Wizards can see this happen. To research beyond this point would require physically travelling into the Aethyr to follow it in its journey. Nobody who has tried this has returned to publish a paper on it.
 
Ct613hulu said:
I am curious about the Amethyst College's take on this. Have they tried to conduct empirical research to more precisely determine what happens after death and how to best balance the needs of the living with the needs of the dead? I can understand that this would be intensely controversial given the religious connotations and connection to necromancy but I would think that the potential benefits would still inspire some serious effort.
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I do not see how you could make such an experiment without actual necromancy. The Amethyst wind is the wind of Endings.

Boney said:
Upon death, the soul goes deeper into the Aethyr. Amethyst Wizards can see this happen. To research beyond this point would require physically travelling into the Aethyr to follow it in its journey. Nobody who has tried this has returned to publish a paper on it.
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...or that. I am kind of stunned that anyone actually tried that, but then again it does seem in line with the sort of risk taking the Colleges engender in their magisters.
 
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Boney said:
Upon death, the soul goes deeper into the Aethyr. Amethyst Wizards can see this happen. To research beyond this point would require physically travelling into the Aethyr to follow it in its journey. Nobody who has tried this has returned to publish a paper on it.
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Or they have and they have good reason to keep it a secret. :V
 
Boney said:
Upon death, the soul goes deeper into the Aethyr. Amethyst Wizards can see this happen. To research beyond this point would require physically travelling into the Aethyr to follow it in its journey. Nobody who has tried this has returned to publish a paper on it.
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It seems like there is some room for some fascinating collaboration with the Dwarves in Aethyr exploration. I can imagine the creation of an Aether Exploration vessel that combines the magic repelling effects of Dwarven runes with the Wizards ability to directly manipulate magic enable (relatively) safely travel. This would function something along the lines of a spaceship in that it is a vehicle meant to function in a realm that is utterly hostile to normal life and operates by physical rules that are different those found in the normal human environment.

Some sufficiently adventurous Wizards could be inspired by how manage Karak Vlag survived in the Aethyr for 2 Centuries and try to find out whether it is possible replicate a similar feat for a much shorter period of time in a vessel that is either manned by wizards or automated with equipment that can bring back a record of what it encounters. They would have to devise some manner of ritual to enter the Aethyr but returning should be relatively easy given the demonstrated tendency for interdimensional travelers and objects to return to their native phase of existence in the absence powerful force investing significant effort keeping them in place. Their efforts would start of with simple prepared objects designed purely to collect samples and only reach the full stage of manned exploration after considerable experimentation.
 
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Ct613hulu said:
It seems like there is some room for some fascinating collaboration with the Dwarves in Aethyr exploration. I can imagine the creation of an Aether Exploration vessel that combines the magic repelling effects of Dwarven runes with the Wizards ability to directly manipulate magic to enable (relatively) safely travel. Some sufficiently adventurous Wizards could be inspired by how manage Karak Vlag survived in the Aethyr for 2 Centuries and try to find out whether it is possible replicate a similar feat for a much shorter period of time in a vessel that is either manned by wizards or automated with equipment that can bring back a record of what it encounters.
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In order to pass anything physical into the Aethyr (not just the souls of suicidal wizards) you need to make a warp gate and that is a clear violation of Article 7.
 
DragonParadox said:
In order to pass anything physical into the Aethyr (not just the souls of suicidal wizards) you need to make a warp gate and that is a clear violation of Article 7.
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The Tarn of Tears supposedly has a portal to the Aethyr which serves as Laurelorn's source of magic. Its guardian spirit gets snippy with those trying to look too much into it and I wouldn't want to jump in there even if we could, but it's not like those gates only exist in the poles or after catastrophic failures.

EDIT: Source:
Boney said:
Eventually the mire gives way to swamp proper which gives way to the aptly-named Misty Hills, and visibility plunges to almost nothing, though your guide still takes the opportunity to point in the direction that apparently the Pass of Stone lies in, the ruined tower that serves as the closest thing to a capital the Ward of Rain has. Eventually you emerge from that mist and find yourself at the edge of a wide, tree-ringed lake. "The Tarn of Tears," Prince Galenstra says. "The source of what you call the Schaukel, and also of much of Laurelorn's magic."

"A source of magic? How?" You focus on the water, and eventually you can make out a deep throb of magical energy far below, and a steady plume spiralling upwards to swirl through the waters of the lake and be drawn north to the outflow. Everything you've been taught says that all magic has its origin in the Aethyr.

"We don't know," he admits. "We believe there's some kind of portal at the bottom, but it has a guardian spirit that doesn't like us investigating."
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Codex said:
The Tarn of Tears supposedly has a portal to the Aethyr which serves as Laurelorn's source of magic. Its guardian spirit gets snippy with those trying to look too much into it and I wouldn't want to jump in there even if we could, but it's not like those gates only exist in the poles or after catastrophic failures.
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Well yes, if you already had a guarded stable gate that could in theory be done, but the initial post mentioned that the vessel would pass by 'some manner of ritual to enter the Aethyr'. As between the dwarfs and wizards only the latter could open such a gate it would be a violation of Article 7.
 
Boney said:
The Fellowship of the Shroud argues that it should be, but most of the Cult of Morr consider that monstrously selfish - sacrificing the souls of the dead to marginally protect the living. The body being intact and preferably interred in a Garden of Morr is believed to make it easier for the deceased to reach Morr's Realm, so cremation is only used if it's the only way to prevent a body from falling into the hands of necromancers.
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Given that they have firm evidence for souls not only existing, but continuing to exist after the death of the body, and of being the seat of consciousness, it makes perfect sense to thus consider death as simply a state-change for a person (albeit one that makes them unable to continue to interact with the physical world). In light of that, cremation potentially resulting in a soul getting lost on the way to safety and risking destruction would carry the same moral weight as throwing someone into the wilderness without any gear or training would in a purely materialistic world. Sure, they might possibly survive it, but it's a lot less likely, and even if they do, you've likely caused them significant harm. And that's not even considering whether the harm to the body causes harm to the soul, even if just psychologically from experiencing or witnessing their body being treated like that.
 
IronFist said:
There's also the possible portal under the middle mountains...
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That is a piece of self contradictory lore. Some sources say that the Middle Mountains was where Grimnir had his last stand, but most sources say that he went further north. I think Boney is going with the North interpretation, because last time someone asked him if the Middle Mountains were cursed he replied with "Cursed with a lack of raw materials".
 
There's this one line from way back that I always found interesting, as it hints at the difference between different cultures regarding death and the afterlife just enough to intrigue me but without really getting into any details. When Mathilde is helping Gunnars deal with the dead humans from the expeditions, she brings up a practice where remains are entombed in a mass ossuary, with each ossuary containing remains of those devoted to Morr to guard their fellows on their way to the afterlife. But what I find really interesting is what happens when you don't have Morrites available:
Boney said:
Those suitably devoted to Morr are posthumously given the title of Lay-Priest, which can not only be done as an emergency measure, but is also explicitly allowed in the absence of Priests of Morr by followers of Morai-Heg, Gazul, Quinsberry, the Lady, and the Ancient Widow.
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Morai-Heg and Gazul are obvious, the dwarfs and the elves have their own death Gods and that makes sense. What about Quinsberry? I can kind of see how burial rites fall under tradition which is His domain, but it's interesting that the halflings don't have a dedicated death God. Also lacking a death God is the human kingdom of Kislev, with apparently the Ancient Widow filling that role instead? I vaguely remember some mention of what might be a death God in Kislev mythology, but Kislevites find the idea of actually worshipping it kind of weird. And there's The Lady, which is interesting because I do think Morr has some worshippers in Bretonnia, but I guess Bretonnians trust The Lady to protect their souls like they trust Her to protect everything else. Also her grandfather is a death God so maybe she picked up a few things.
 
mathymancer said:
I vaguely remember some mention of what might be a death God in Kislev mythology, but Kislevites find the idea of actually worshipping it kind of weird.
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I think you might be referring to my mention of Misery and Misfortune earlier in the thread?
Codex said:
Ok, this is incredibly interesting:

"Kislev simply cannot understand some things, such as the Empire's worship of Morr and Ranald. In Kislev, death is a harsh reality that is never far from anyone's mind. The idea of revering it or pretending there is something beyond it is distasteful to the Kislevites. Likewise, the Kislevites have no time for the idea of venerating those who steal. However, visions and dreams often feature a dark figure in a cowl—who brings death—and his trickster companion. In oblast folklore, they are known respectively as Misery and Misfortune."
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Page 42 of Realm of the Ice Queen btw. Realised I never cited the source.
 
Ct613hulu said:
It seems like there is some room for some fascinating collaboration with the Dwarves in Aethyr exploration. I can imagine the creation of an Aether Exploration vessel that combines the magic repelling effects of Dwarven runes with the Wizards ability to directly manipulate magic enable (relatively) safely travel. This would function something along the lines of a spaceship in that it is a vehicle meant to function in a realm that is utterly hostile to normal life and operates by physical rules that are different those found in the normal human environment.
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So you want a ship that can arbitrarily go in and out of the warp.

…

Magister Vigilant? Yes I found the black magister. :p
 
Codex said:
I think you might be referring to my mention of Misery and Misfortune earlier in the thread?

Page 42 of Realm of the Ice Queen btw. Realised I never cited the source.
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Yeah, that must be it. I wonder if that's quest canon, though. Ranald teaming up with Morr to prank the Kislevites - if that's what it is - might not mesh well with Ranald's relation to the Gods of Kislev in text. Or maybe it does, I don't know.
Codex said:
I wonder what specifically about Kislev causes Misery and Misfortune to appear in their dreams and visions. Are Morr and Ranald messing with Kislevites for not respecting them?
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Apparently in Kislev they often burn their dead so I guess that's another reason for Morr to be mad at them?
 
I think that before looking for any metaphysical reason for why the Kislevites burn their dead we should consider the historical one, Kurgans also burn their dead as do the equally chaos worshiping Norscans. Going a little further, assume you are a member of a steppe tribe that serves, or at least tries to appease daemon gods and then you decide 'nah I think I am good without the madness and mutation'. Are you suddenly going to believe that there is a nice peaceful garden waiting for you when you die? Or are you by contrast still going to think you go to the big god brawl in the sky and you must find your way in the wilderness?

The idea that the souls of the dead are safe unless desecration happens would not I think resonate with those steppe tribes.
 
Burned_Cookie said:
Do they just give everyone a funeral if theres danger or-
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Page 49 of Realm of the Ice Queen:

"Kislevite funerals are unusual in that they are almost never held for people who are actually dead. Instead, funerals are held for people who might as well be dead, given the risks they are about to face, including all members of a village's rota, as well as all women who aim to bear children. Thus, a boy's funeral is held immediately after he joins the warrior band, while a girl's is held immediately after her wedding.

A pyre is built in a public place and solemnly lit by the person (or persons) whose funeral it is. The relatives then begin mourning his death, as the "dead" person casts a symbolic childhood possession into the flames. After the mourning dirges—which vary from village to village—have been sung, everyone gathers in a circle to tell stories of the "dead" person's devotion to duty. The "dead" person stays outside the circle, moving to stand or sit behind whoever is currently speaking. These stories are an opportunity to tell the "dead" person what is expected of them in their new life and are often traditional tales of heroes or mothers with the appropriate name substituted."
 
Codex said:
That is a piece of self contradictory lore. Some sources say that the Middle Mountains was where Grimnir had his last stand, but most sources say that he went further north. I think Boney is going with the North interpretation, because last time someone asked him if the Middle Mountains were cursed he replied with "Cursed with a lack of raw materials".
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And yet, Thorek says (and i do think he means it just as an artistic exagerration but its still interesting) that everyone living in shadows of those mountains finds treachery growing in their hearts. There might well be something sinister within, thought i really doubt its literal portal to hell.
 
Angelform said:
I recall that we got the Dawi position a while back (although I haven't the foggiest where) and it was broadly the same.
We should see what the elves of Laurelorn have to say on the matter.
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We have part of the answer to that from casual conversation with Galenstra:
Boney said:
"This is about the outskirts of the battleground," he says. "We'll skirt around it, as many of the fallen beasts could not be properly disposed of, and may not rest easily. An easy problem to solve if they haul themselves up and start wandering, not so much if they grab you from below."

"Just the beasts?" you ask curiously.

"I suppose humans, too. One of your Morai-Heg priests said a prayer over the site. But none of ours remain here, except those that wished to become one with the swamp when they passed. Every one of our people that ventures beyond their home carries a wayshard to find their way, and so they can be found if they fall."
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Some want to become one with the swamp when they die, others are picked up after they fall through the use of Wayshards to locate their bodies. What they do afterwards I don't know, but considering the Swamp part I believe it's more likely to be burial.
 
Codex said:
Page 49 of Realm of the Ice Queen:

"Kislevite funerals are unusual in that they are almost never held for people who are actually dead. Instead, funerals are held for people who might as well be dead, given the risks they are about to face, including all members of a village's rota, as well as all women who aim to bear children. Thus, a boy's funeral is held immediately after he joins the warrior band, while a girl's is held immediately after her wedding.

A pyre is built in a public place and solemnly lit by the person (or persons) whose funeral it is. The relatives then begin mourning his death, as the "dead" person casts a symbolic childhood possession into the flames. After the mourning dirges—which vary from village to village—have been sung, everyone gathers in a circle to tell stories of the "dead" person's devotion to duty. The "dead" person stays outside the circle, moving to stand or sit behind whoever is currently speaking. These stories are an opportunity to tell the "dead" person what is expected of them in their new life and are often traditional tales of heroes or mothers with the appropriate name substituted."
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That's a fascinating bit of lore. I wonder if the writers based this on real-life customs or if it's mostly original?
 
glyph said:
That's a fascinating bit of lore. I wonder if the writers based this on real-life customs or if it's mostly original?
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The 'American Wake' was a big thing in famine Ireland. Were the community would hold a wake for those that were going on the coffin ships to Canada and the US, because if you died on the way you were likely to be thrown overboard and there was no guarantee that your body would be treated right even if it did make it to the port.
 
Boney said:
The position of the Cult of Morr is that for a person to have the best chance of reaching Morr's realm safely, their body should be kept inviolate and ideally within a Garden of Morr. After a certain amount of time their journey is no longer in danger, but their corpse could still be used to bother them in the afterlife or even yank them back out entirely. After a longer amount of time, this danger has passed too, and the only danger left is the body being used as raw materials by necromancers - and even then, with the soul so thoroughly absent they can only be made into basic animated skeletons. At this point if the Garden is still in active use the body is uninterred and transferred to an ossuary and the grave plot or tomb is reused, and if the person was of significance to one of the Cults part of their skeleton might be turned into relics, and if they made allowances for it some (but never all) of their bones might be used as materials for certain carefully-vetted esoteric purposes - most commonly this is those in the Cult of Morr donating their bones to the Cult of Morr, and Amethyst Wizards donating theirs to their Order.
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Is this lore sourced or original? I've been trying to find info on what use of bones the Cult of Morr allows for ages because you always see skulls and bones being carried around not only by priests of Morr, but other people too like amethyst wizards, amber wizards, and those peasants that carry around grail reliquaes. (Plus the occasional skull around the house like you see every now and again in artwork.) If you've got a place that lays this all down I'd be quite gratified.
 
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