- Location
- Who knows?
The flask is literal Battle Magic in a jar. I think some fear mongering about losing track or control of it is warranted.
Warhammer Fantasy: Divided Loyalties - an Advisor's Quest
- Thread starter Boney
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- Fantasy Users' Choice!
Voted best in category in the Users' Choice awards.
The flask is literal Battle Magic in a jar. I think some fear mongering about losing track or control of it is warranted.
...He's going to commit genocide using something that clears out a room once or twice a day?
I agree, and I believe there's not much good reason to lend it to him, but this is definitely crossing the line into fearmongering.
- Location
- Norway
Mathilde is demonstrating right now why keeping her and the empire as allies is valuable, I don't think Boris is the sort of guy who would squander that for a magical artifact, especially one that isn't culturally important to Kislev. That said I don't think we are gonna get him to use it, just cause random untested magical artifacts from foreign wizards aren't the sort of thing you accept when you are the crown prince. Just offering it is sorta suspect on its own, in a "if this thing is so great, why don't you use it?" and "so this thing creates an explosion, why would I want that in front of my mouth?" sense.
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Remember when we were about to face a completely unknown daemonic force with a 4-race cavalry / infantry / tank / wizard / dragonrider force and everyone went "I'll trade you ten halberds for a barrel of gunpowder" and "Anyone got cleansing enchants left? Bob left ours at home."
It sure does . . . it sure does. For Pandaria!
- Location
- UK
[X] Bring in the Kreml Guard
[X] Investigate the missing leyline
[X] Investigate the missing leyline
pucflek
Verified simpleton
- Location
- Czech Republic
Dragon Flask can't just clear a room, it can blow apart fortifications. Its not quite "level a country" but its still a very powerful magical artifact. You could terrorize a province with less if you managed to slap together enough brigands.
And if the prince of Kislev wanted to terrorize a province he has way worse options.
deathofrats0808
Don’t think of it as dying; just as leaving early
- Location
- Earth
Where'd you get that from? IIRC the one time Mathilde tested it, it destroyed a small clearing. Not a fortress.
Codex
Fantasy Addict
- Pronouns
- She/Her
It cleared a stump and a few inches around and below:
It might be able to create a very, very small breach in a castle wall if it was like a couple inches thick. I genuinely don't know how thick castle walls are.
Sinsystems
Patron Librarian
- Pronouns
- She/Her
Incredibly veriable no less then a foot wide wooden pallasade would count as a "castle wall"
- Location
- Norway
According to wikipedia the average castle wall is 3 meters thick, but I feel like that's a number that probably has a lot of variance, and Warhammer castles are probably generally built even sturdier than their real-life counterparts
The Flask is pretty meh as powerful magic artifacts go. Like, yeah, battle magic in a can, but bound spells are a thing - we're not talking about something uniquely powerful, just a moderately good tactical-level asset. They make them. Nations aren't going to risk war over them. Powerful rulers aren't gonna murder each other over them.
... besides if anyone was willing to kill us for our magical artifacts, the Flask is... probably the last on the list? Like it's probably our weakest and least significant magic item. I could believe someone being willing to murder us for Branalhune - still stupid, but it's at least worth the effort, not so much the flask - at least not anyone with an actual chance of pulling it off.
That said, we're supposed to not micromanage items, and that probably includes giving them away. And of course even if it's just an item, it's fire magic being offered to the Tsarevitch, which is probably not gonna go over well, and also he probably already has magic items... (his TT Tzar version certainly does)
I don't get where we're getting 'enough brigands' from, but you're right, it'd be a significant step up from the kinds of resources brigands have. Because brigands usually don't have many resources. Or numbers, for that matter. The thing is, we're not talking about random brigands. We're talking about a prince with access to far greater resources.
[X] Investigate the missing leyline
[X] Find the Boyar
... besides if anyone was willing to kill us for our magical artifacts, the Flask is... probably the last on the list? Like it's probably our weakest and least significant magic item. I could believe someone being willing to murder us for Branalhune - still stupid, but it's at least worth the effort, not so much the flask - at least not anyone with an actual chance of pulling it off.
That said, we're supposed to not micromanage items, and that probably includes giving them away. And of course even if it's just an item, it's fire magic being offered to the Tsarevitch, which is probably not gonna go over well, and also he probably already has magic items... (his TT Tzar version certainly does)
You know what else can do that? Cannons. The Boyar very likely has access to cannons. And an army. The Tsarevitch very definitely does.
I don't get where we're getting 'enough brigands' from, but you're right, it'd be a significant step up from the kinds of resources brigands have. Because brigands usually don't have many resources. Or numbers, for that matter. The thing is, we're not talking about random brigands. We're talking about a prince with access to far greater resources.
It's likely hot and forceful enough to blast down a decent masonry wall. But like I said. Cannons. Or battle magic.
Meters. That said I think you're underestimating it a bit, and not every fortification is a proper castle. But like, yeah, it's clearly not exactly toppling fortresses.
[X] Investigate the missing leyline
[X] Find the Boyar
Codex
Fantasy Addict
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I was thinking well fortified stone wall, not exactly a wooden pallisade.
Then it starts at 2 meters and normally, goes up from there. Castle walls are incredible thick and only get thicker with the invention of crude cannons.
pucflek
Verified simpleton
- Location
- Czech Republic
I mean sure, but there is not exactly that many of those. We have seen what a Kislevite keep looks like. We have seen how our fief in ass-end of nowhere looks like. Flask would eat it for breakfast, thus making most smaller settlements extremely vulnerable.
It wouldn't crack a castle wall but it would definitely burn down even well made wooden gate and maybe even blow apart portcullis so even sacking smaller towns would be possible provided you had enough men outside of it, entirely bypassing the issue of stuff like siege weapons.
Now say Tsarevitch perishes/loses it in heat of battle whatever. Soldier finds it, deserts and boom, you have a pretty big problem. Thats entirely on us. And sure we can solve it but thats a pretty big black mark against trusting us with more items.
Like yeah, i was talking about Tsarevitch being one of those royals that think they can appropriate anything (which he damn well might be) in the initial posts but that was more to hammer in the severity of lending someone we don't know a weapon of mass destruction. I am not particularily worried that it would happen, but its definitely one of the possibilities on entire gamut of how things might go wrong. And its definitely something someone who heard us do it might consider. Its something Mathilde, paranoia ridden cat that she is, would consider. I don't even think lending it outside of pretty specific circle of friends would be in character for her.
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Or the tsarevitch uses it to defend himself and we save his live through it. Might also happens.
Like im not saying we should give it to him. We don't know the dude enough (I'm also unsure if boney would let us) but the only thing you have brought foreward to justify your outbreak was "he might steal it, try to kill us and start a International incident.", "he might use it to terrorize a small town." or "he might lose it, someone steals it and tries to run away with a magical artifact that their probably scarred of."
These are the scenarios you used.
Mopman43
Mountain-Hermit of Nitpeak
- Location
- Vermont
He probably doesn't have them yet.
His weapon was made by the Ice Witches, and he probably hasn't married one yet.
His armor was made by the Cult of Ursun, which is currently a shadow of itself because he hasn't revitalized it yet.
I'd bet against either having cannons. Kislev didn't see widespread gunpowder usage until Boris's reign.
If Boney is using some of the new lore, they might have some old museum pieces from the Great War Against Chaos, but those seem more like siege cannons, not the sort of thing you'd drag around with an army (without a magic ice sled and a bear to pull it, anyway).
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Guys I feel like we are getting a bit far afield here, no matter if we could theoretically hand our very dangerous fire based artifact out it is worth keeping in mind that Mathilde took the thing to a firing range for several days before she felt equipped to actually use it in battle and she is a trained wizard who has used many similar artifacts in the past (as much as magic items can be similar). If you hand this to Bear Boy the Great he is not going to know how to use it and (assuming he tries anyway) odds are good he would blow up his own guard.
Mopman43
Mountain-Hermit of Nitpeak
- Location
- Vermont
Er, didn't she only try it the one time? I don't recall sustained practice.
True, he doesn't have those items. That doesn't mean he won't have magic items.
That would depend on the defintion of 'widespread'. I would quite comfortably define 'has perhaps one cannon per pulk' as 'not widespread'.
True. The stump was smashed to splinters, a palisade would likely suffer a similar fate, and it'd likely create a breach big enough for a man to climb through, at least. Key word being 'a man' and 'climb'. We're not talking a super huge breach. While anyone directly behind when it was destroyed would likely be killed, it'd be difficult to sustain an assault in this manner.
My understanding is that a typical castle wall is not solid masonry but two layers of worked stone surrounding unworked stone and mortar. It's much cheaper, cut nice fitted stone on the outside and pile the debris in the middle. It's possible, even likely that the rocks on the near side would be crushed by the force and spalled by the heat, thus leading to a spill of the looser earth underneath. This is far from a 'breach' however, as the opposite wall is unlikely to be heavily affected, and the wall is also very tall - so you just have a pockmark but no actual breach.
A dwarf-made wall almost certainly *is* finely worked stone all the way through. There are likely other extraordinarily tough fortifications.
I think the implication of Kislev only having wooden fortifications is that the Empire often *does* have stone fortifications. Moreover: Just look at our fief. The kind of settlement that the flask would be decisive in sacking would... not be worth sacking, and you'd still need manpower. Like, that's... if you already *have* a bandit army, then... well, first of all, the actual army is likely to make an issue. It'd be useful in that bandits and siege weapons mix poorly, but it'd also draw more attention, even if it wouldn't slow them down as much.
Also, most gatehouses have a dual-layer gate.
Mopman43
Mountain-Hermit of Nitpeak
- Location
- Vermont
One cannon per pulk might be more widespread than they are in the Empire.
Stirland is right next to Nuln and didn't contain a single cannon when Abelhelm got there.
You'd definitely need to at least take a foreign prince on a date or two before he'd let you put your foreign magic in his body.
Even the versions of canon that have Kislev more infantry-heavy say it's as a result of Boris' and Katarin's reforms. So far all Boris has managed is expanding and improving the Kreml Guard.
And only the Gospodar produce Winged Lancers, the Ungols fight as Horse Archers.
Not impenetrable, before electric lighting there's a lot more light sources at head height or lower. But she could make that aesthetic work if she put her mind to it.
Even the versions of canon that have Kislev more infantry-heavy say it's as a result of Boris' and Katarin's reforms. So far all Boris has managed is expanding and improving the Kreml Guard.
And only the Gospodar produce Winged Lancers, the Ungols fight as Horse Archers.
Not impenetrable, before electric lighting there's a lot more light sources at head height or lower. But she could make that aesthetic work if she put her mind to it.
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I know you don't want us to start fudging around with the magic items, but how about hat options? Sometimes the witch hunter hat is just not chiq and we would go better with ringwraith, or maybe a nice sunflower hat. Come one! Let us accessorise! /j
- Location
- Australia
Huh, maybe that's why it's the Kreml Guard and not Tzar Guard - because it's not the Tzar who's really made them the kind of force they are in the modern day. Might be the name changes after Boris becomes Tzar.