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Warhammer Fantasy: Divided Loyalties - an Advisor's Quest

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Tobtorp said:
True, the wiki does state that Verena mostly dislikes thieves using "being a ranaldite" as an excuse for stealing. And the general conflict of the god of thieves and the goddess of justice. But when was the last time we actually stole something just for the sake of worshipping ranald (or generally when did we last steal anything?)
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We stole Vlag from Slannesh. We also pillaged a Kurgan warcamp, with Ranald's explicit help, but I don't think "pillaging" counts as "stealing" in Ranaldite Lore?

Codex said:
This particular aspect of Verena meshes very well with Ranald the Protector.
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And the Grey Collage as a whole as well.
 
Nerdasaurus Rex said:
We stole Vlag from Slannesh. We also pillaged a Kurgan warcamp, with Ranald's explicit help, but I don't think "pillaging" counts as "stealing" in Ranaldite Lore?
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Is it really pillaging when they attacked as soon as they saw us? That's more looting. And vlag was just reclamation of Dwarven property through a trusted intermediary. That's like text book repo.
 
Nerdasaurus Rex said:
And the Grey Collage as a whole as well.
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Well...

"To this day, Elven servants of Verena, whom they call Hoeth, all bear swords, much like their God. In turn, we, the Wise Magisters of the Grey Order, also favour the weapon, all in memory of a myth that probably isn't even true." —Markus Fischer, Magister of the Grey Order

From page 20 of Tome of Salvation
 
Tobtorp said:
Is it really pillaging when they attacked as soon as they saw us? That's more looting. And vlag was just reclamation of Dwarven property through a trusted intermediary. That's like text book repo.
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Yes, it is. It's in the definition.
Article:
pillage (third-person singular simple present pillages, present participle pillaging, simple past and past participle pillaged)
  1. (transitive, intransitive) To loot or plunder by force, especially in time of war.
Source: Wiktionary
 
Tobtorp said:
... did we steal warpstone from them or did they have evil dwarf money? ... doesnt really matter. ok so if the Verenians ask the last time we stole something we did it from the skaven in the frozen wastes.
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When we broke into what used to be Qretch's vault before he got replaced, we found a whole pile of Kislevaran coins inside.
 
Tobtorp said:
But they attacked first? And we defended ourselves and then took their stuff, that counts more for looting I think.
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First—Looting and pillaging are synonymous. Part of the definition of pillaging is looting. I'm not sure what the distinction you're trying to make is.
Second— Ljiljana attacked first, and Mathilde followed up.
Boney said:
Slaakhamshy'y Yg'a'tedaar threw his head to and fro, ignoring the suddenly-falling snow and trying to taste the strange energy to the air. He was not one of the Tzeen'ksy that could feel and twist the God-Winds, but his elongated head had unlocked new senses when Slaaneth had gifted it to him. "Azyr'ksy!" he shrieked in anger, calling upon his Shaman in the only language he could still form the words of.

"The future is clouded," said the cringing man who claimed to see fate in the sky as he approached, and Yg'a'tedaar's crab-like claw snapped at the Shaman's head in irritation, though stopping just shy of crushing him. One does not destroy a Shaman lightly.

"Azyr'iakash?" he asked, and the Shaman shook his head. "Tzeen'iakash? Hysh'iakash? Ksy'akhshami!"

"This is nothing from the Blessed Realm, Slaakhamshy'y," the Shaman said, still shaking his head. "The sudden snow, the piercing sun. This is the work of southerners, it must be."

"Mnahn'akami?" Yg'a'tedaar asked, contempt and disbelief in his tone. "Mnahn'akami syha'hagl? Naflehye!"

Perhaps if he had used that opportunity to rally his followers to his side instead of scoffing at his Shaman, he may have been able to put up a defence and survive the day, and perhaps eventually been awarded the final syllable that would mark his ascension. But instead Slaakhamshy'y Yg'a'tedaar found himself looking down at the spears of ice that had punched through his armour and into his chest, and his final thought was that his patron would not smile upon such an inglorious and uninteresting death.
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ReImagined said:
First—Looting and pillaging are synonymous. Part of the definition of pillaging is looting. I'm not sure what the distinction you're trying to make is.
Second— Ljiljana attacked first, and Mathilde followed up.
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... I thought looting was more of a "is done after the fight to the loser irrelevant of it they started it or the other side did" also we might actually be guilty of pillaging... I bet there's a provision about pillaging known chaos worshippers.
 
So final arguments:

The Verenians are great, but we can get more out of them if we look more impressive when we go to them.

So we should do other stuff while getting up and running.

Halflings are a very neat bit of politics to add, and it lets us claim to have writings from four races in our library. Five if we get the We to write a monograph.

So we should do the halflings now and wait on the Verenians.
 
Tobtorp said:
... I thought looting was more of a "is done after the fight to the loser irrelevant of it they started it or the other side did" also we might actually be guilty of pillaging... I bet there's a provision about pillaging known chaos worshippers.
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Looting differs from pillaging in that it can be done by someone that wasn't a participant in the fight, or even with the "fight" being a man-against-nature type one - you can loot somewhere that the owner has fled due to an earthquake - but in this case Mathilde went to the camp looking for a fight, killed them, and took their stuff; so it's definitely pillaging as well as looting.
 
Codex said:
Why are we even getting stuck on the terminology of pillaging vs looting? Am I missing something?
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Just a fun random diversion while discussing the vote I think - it spun off as a tangent from the fact that we steal stuff and the Verenans might not be okay with that (but because we loot and pillage from enemies of the empire, they probably would be)
 
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Codex said:
Why are we even getting stuck on the terminology of pillaging vs looting? Am I missing something?
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We were mostly going over when Mathilde last stole something, which we determined was either the theft of coin from the Skaven on the way to Dum or the pillaging (which I thought was looting) on the way back to get the cup.
 
Valmond said:
I don't think anyone expects, or is worried of, a concentrated take over.
Mostly it is just that if we recruit Verenans early on, then a sufficiently dedicated individual could easily lead to getting more people of similar mindset hired to a point where they can, if not dictate policy, then interpret it to sufficient degree that it barely matters.

I don't see this is a a major worry, and if that were to happen it would be an interesting plot to follow through.
But it is a legit one.
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I skipped a lot of the back and forth on this topic, but would anyone mind pointing me to a post that without hyperbole that gives an explination as to why any form of takeover (within the bounds of possibilty) by the Verenans is even a problem?

I skimmed a buch of the strawmen and absudim posts and the question that popped up was "so what?"

(N.b. the KW libary is a tool for a purpose, (sustainable collection, preservation and dissimination of knowledge to good people) and Belegar's idea of his own honour is bound up in seeing that purpose fufilled. Any reasonable analysis of the consequences of some sort of takeover should include Belegar being a sword of damocles if any group visibly turn the this tool away from what it was made for)
 
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BeepSmile said:
I skipped a lot of the back and forth on this topic, but would anyone mind pointing me to a post that without hyperbole that gives an explination as to why any form of takeover (within the bounds of possibilty) by the Verenans is even a problem?
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The fairly unlikely take over would be a problem because Verenans would not necessarily hold same values and goals as we do.
Verenans want to preserve knowledge, wether or not they want to spread it can depend a lot on the specific temple or event the person.
So in the hypothetical "take over" scenario, we would have to spend time to boot and replace the problematic Verenans, which we would be able to do, relatively easily in fact, it would just then be a thing we need to do instead of something else we might want to do.

So basicly it's the difference between geting Verenans now with the risk of allowing them increased changes of shaping policy, or bulking the library and its staff through other means first, making for a more powerful institution that might get a better deal with the Verenans.

Anyone else keep trying to write Werenuns instead of Verenans?
 
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