Warhammer Fantasy: Divided Loyalties - an Advisor's Quest

[SuperSonicSound]

Verenians are arguably philosophically opposed to the 'disemination' portion of our charter, having the library run by them would likely curtail those activities out of discomfort.

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Whoa, whoa whoa.

Where are you getting that from? They have a commandment to preserve knowledge absolutely no commandment to not share and one that actively supports disseminating it so where you do get the idea that they are philosophically opposed?

 

[ReImagined]

I skipped a lot of the back and forth on this topic, but would anyone mind pointing me to a post that without hyperbole that gives an explination as to why any form of takeover (within the bounds of possibilty) by the Verenans is even a problem?

I skimmed a buch of the strawmen and absudam posts and the question that popped up was "so what?"

(N.b. the KW libary is a tool for a purpose, (sustainable collection, preservation and dissimination of knowledge to good people) and Belegar's idea of his own honour is bound up in seeing that purpose fufilled. Any reasonable analysis of the consequences of some sort of takeover should include Belegar being a sword of damocles if any group visibly turn the this tool away from what it was made for)

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It's the same logic behind having a word with Adela about recruiting her family members for the Karag Nar Gunnery school, or not hiring the Stirlander to take over the EIC. It's not necessarily malicious in intent, and in all probability they'd be competent at the job. But it's a third party with their own objectives and motives, and they might not necessarily align with Mathilde's vision.

 

[Jreengus]

Whoa, whoa whoa.

Where are you getting that from? They have a commandment to preserve knowledge absolutely no commandment to not share and one that actively supports disseminating it so where you do get the idea that they are philosophically opposed?

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I wouldn't say philosophically so much as practically. Verenans want to preserve knowledge, that requires money and political backing. Gatekeeping who can access that knowledge is the best method they have to acquire the money/power they need.

 

[mathymancer]

Whoa, whoa whoa.

Where are you getting that from? They have a commandment to preserve knowledge absolutely no commandment to not share and one that actively supports disseminating it so where you do get the idea that they are philosophically opposed?

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There is a WoG on the subject that has been mentioned earlier in the discussion:

The Cult of Verena is very decentralized and has no official head apart from Verena Herself. There are portions of it that do try to spread knowledge, but there are others that quite like the power and prestige of being the gatekeepers of it instead. And one big problem that the Cult has is that there's knowledge out there that other powers really don't want preserved, and often for pretty compelling reasons. This means the idea that some of their knowledge needs to be kept to themselves is one that no part of the Cult can fully shake off, because some of that knowledge is proscribed and forbidden.

Safeguard knowledge, says the first of the Cult's strictures. Yes, but what about- All knowledge, says the second. If Mathilde dropped the Liber Mortis in their laps, they'd be required to preserve it. The Codex of Unspeakable Damnation, a how-to guide on building a Chaos Cult and summoning Daemons? Yep. The Black Book of Ibn Nagazzar, which allows even the most talentless of people the ability to cast Death and Shadow Magic for the low, low price of blood sacrifice for each casting? All knowledge means all knowledge. The Liber Bubonicus, which comes with samples of every single plague to have ever ravaged the world? The Liber Caelestior, a book of insane prophecy that broke the faith of he who would become Archaon? The Chromatic Tome, which is literally a Daemon that tweaks the lessons on magic within on the fly to better drive the reader into heresy and damnation? Did Verena fucking stutter? All. Knowledge. Preserve it.

So... yeah. Secrecy is built inextricably into the bones of the Cult of Verena.

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Emphasis mine.

 

[Shard]

[X] Plan Compromise

Should be my last vote swap this vote.

 

[mathymancer]

And Quinsberry is ahead by three votes.
I feel slightly better about the plan change, since at this point so many people have changed their vote that it can't be argued that the plan change went unnoticed. But it's not hard to imagine that a few voters missed it, and with the votes being as close as they are this might make all the difference - at time of writing, 50 people definitely voted for Verena, while 53 people only probably voted for Quinsberry.

If nothing else the success of [ ] Plan Compromise + Verenans has shown that the thread is perfectly capable of pivoting due to a small change of a plan late in the vote, which I think invalidates the justification given for the concept of plan changing. In future votes I believe the thing to do in a similar situation would be to create a variant.

 

[BeepSmile]

It's the same logic behind having a word with Adela about recruiting her family members for the Karag Nar Gunnery school, or not hiring the Stirlander to take over the EIC. It's not necessarily malicious in intent, and in all probability they'd be competent at the job. But it's a third party with their own objectives and motives, and they might not necessarily align with Mathilde's vision.

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Yeah, people do be like that, just running about dividing their loyalties all over the place.
Or to be clear: Yes that happens, but this is not an answer to my "why is that bad in these circumstances?"

Also, thaks Glau for the explict "why this bad"

I have two reasons for Verena over Quins in terms of who to reach out to:

1. (Long term, stealing libarians for K8P): Decentrailsed cult, many like to disseminate, and that is in our charter so any that are anti-dissimenation would have to be sneaky-like, not just passive "try to recruit like minded people", because the recruitment pool of libarians is (broadly):
All pro-dissemination that can be convinced to got to K8P
Anti-dissemination that are also inclined to go to K8P and try and be sneaky/wreckers

While I don't have any sort of numbers for how many are pro/anti dissemination overall, I do think that group 1 is much larger than group 2.

2. (Short term: what books to get now) When I was younger, I tried to read the Bible. As a consequence I have a deep hate for geneology that many would consider 'irrational'.

I'm not anti-quins, but their records are, to me "value = 0", so if there is anything else, then I'm in favor of the 'else'. (Cultural consequences of involving quins is a positive btw, it's the knowledge itself that holds no value to me)

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(Also, just to make something clear: I made a broad accusation of absurdism and strawman. Those are not things I saw happen equally on each side of the arguement and I aplogise that my previous post did not have the context that avoided looking like I viewed all parties equally responsible).

 

[kingreaper]

I'm not anti-quins, but their records are, to me "value = 0", so if there is anything else, then I'm in favor of the 'else'. (Cultural consequences of involving quins is a positive btw, it's the knowledge itself that holds no value to me)

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If quinsberry is the Halfling god of knowledge, we're likely to get things like cook-books and farming information alongside the genealogies, things that might be surprisingly rare amongst our other sources because of being "lower-class" to humans.

 

[Zero Gravitas]

I wouldn't say philosophically so much as practically. Verenans want to preserve knowledge, that requires money and political backing. Gatekeeping who can access that knowledge is the best method they have to acquire the money/power they need.

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That may be the case in other contexts but in the case of the Library of K8P the way to King Belegar's money would be by abiding by the charter.

The Library ought to draw Verena's priests like moths to flame precisely because the money and political backing portions are very thoroughly dealt with - if a book enters the library then it'll be preserved for as long as K8P will hold.

Belegar will preserve and disseminate everything up to and including the Liber Mortis if Mathilde oks it and where other libraries might have problems with mobs with pitchforks getting frisky Karak Eight Peaks is amply blessed with well equipped Hammerers that can nip thoughts of burning books in the bud.

 

[Jreengus]

That may be the case in other contexts but in the case of the Library of K8P the way to King Belegar's money would be by abiding by the charter.

The Library ought to draw Verena's priests like moths to flame precisely because the money and political backing portions are very thoroughly dealt with - if a book enters the library then it'll be preserved for as long as K8P will hold.

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Sure and as long as you are happy to be completely reliant on the generosity of a dwarven king that is fine. But while I guarantee there will be some who are happy with that there will be others asking if it is truly wise to undercut their ability to do their job outside of KAU.

 

[dinomannitro6]

I'm not anti-quins, but their records are, to me "value = 0", so if there is anything else, then I'm in favor of the 'else'. (Cultural consequences of involving quins is a positive btw, it's the knowledge itself that holds no value to me)

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The library that we are discussing,

In particular, Quinsberry is venerated by Halfling scholars, and there is a library dedicated to him containing complete records and history of every Hafling bloodline. Offerings to Quinsberry include books, tapestry, and gold.

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while the bloodline records are the notable thing about the library, it still contains other stuff besides that, and is the big library for the knowledge god of a polity.

 

[Tobtorp]

The library that we are discussing,

while the bloodline records are the notable thing about the library, it still contains other stuff besides that, and is the big library for the knowledge god of a polity.

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... But it's the Halfling polity, not to disparage them but their biggest thing is food and agriculture, which is nice enough I guess, but I als feel like they don't really do great breakthrough innovations...

 

[BurnNote]

... But it's the Halfling polity, not to disparage them but their biggest thing is food and agriculture, which is nice enough I guess, but I als feel like they don't really do great breakthrough innovations...

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They invented pies. I know that doesn't sound amazing, but I don't think you quite understand how important and difficult food preservation is in this time. Or producing enough food in general. People went through a shit ton of effort to preserve things, and then even more to make the preserved food not taste terrible.
Any agricultural innovation is going to be important. If nothing else, having enough food is what enables you to let people think about other things.

 

[Glau]

Yeah, the mechanics of feeding, raising, educating and equipping a populace to turn them into something "useful" is where most of improvements are to be had. Do small things a bit better there, and the sheer mass of it relative to everything else is huge.

 

[Tobtorp]

They invented pies. I know that doesn't sound amazing, but I don't think you quite understand how important and difficult food preservation is in this time. Or producing enough food in general. People went through a shit ton of effort to preserve things, and then even more to make the preserved food not taste terrible.
Any agricultural innovation is going to be important. If nothing else, having enough food is what enables you to let people think about other things.

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Yes, but it's not important for us. We are not a ruler, we cannot implement any food saving measures or revolutionize the pie industry because we are barely trusted by the common folk and have a higher calling. Also I don't think any bakers of butchers will pilgrimage to karak eight peak to read about the fantastic pies... It might be a nice thing but it doesn't really draw anyone or gives a ginormous boost at once... It's just nice to have and there are other things I feel are nicer to have...

 

[BurnNote]

Yes, but it's not important for us. We are not a ruler, we cannot implement any food saving measures or revolutionize the pie industry because we are barely trusted by the common folk and have a higher calling. Also I don't think any bakers of butchers will pilgrimage to karak eight peak to read about the fantastic pies... It might be a nice thing but it doesn't really draw anyone or gives a ginormous boost at once... It's just nice to have and there are other things I feel are nicer to have...

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Given that there's a big halfling population in the Karak Mathilde lives in, I think it'll see some use, and Mathilde will get nicer food. But you're right, it's not that important. Getting the Verenans on board is not that important either. We'll get them eventually. None of library options are really critically important. They're Mathilde's hobby/reward. Cumilativly, they'll probably end up with something pretty nice and important, but any individual step really isn't (which is why I'm honestly puzzled why this vote got so... aggressive. To me, it seems like a fairly minor difference.)

The reason I want the halflings is because halflings are nice and I want to do someting nice for the halfings. It also fits the multi-cultural karak, and having a bloodline archive seems like a nice gesture to them in their second home. Also, Panpan likes halflings.

As for Verena? I'm sure we'll get them eventually. They're the book priests, it's almost bound to happen. But I don't see a need to get them now. I don't really see a big downside either, mind. Getting them earlier could be helpful to have their aid in establishing the library. Getting them later gives better leverage to get cool stuff.

Ultimately, I'm going with halflings, because bringing them in soon and early feels narratively meaningful, while bringing the Verenans early isn't any better than bringing them later (and I know this is debatable), so that can (and surely will) be done later.

 

[Tobtorp]

Given that there's a big halfling population in the Karak Mathilde lives in, I think it'll see some use, and Mathilde will get nicer food. But you're right, it's not that important. Getting the Verenans on board is not that important either. We'll get them eventually. None of library options are really critically important. They're Mathilde's hobby/reward. Cumilativly, they'll probably end up with something pretty nice and important, but any individual step really isn't (which is why I'm honestly puzzled why this vote got so... aggressive. To me, it seems like a fairly minor difference.)

The reason I want the halflings is because halflings are nice and I want to do someting nice for the halfings. It also fits the multi-cultural karak, and having a bloodline archive seems like a nice gesture to them in their second home. Also, Panpan likes halflings.

As for Verena? I'm sure we'll get them eventually. They're the book priests, it's almost bound to happen. But I don't see a need to get them now. I don't really see a big downside either, mind. Getting them earlier could be helpful to have their aid in establishing the library. Getting them later gives better leverage to get cool stuff.

Ultimately, I'm going with halflings, because bringing them in soon and early feels narratively meaningful, while bringing the Verenans early isn't any better than bringing them later (and I know this is debatable), so that can (and surely will) be done later.

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That's a fair view point. Also for why this one got heated, it's partially for why there are 2 plans with the same name, the original author of plan compromise edited the library vote later on and that annoyed many a people, me included.

 

[Sparsebeard]

So, I was thinking about it and it seems to me that while publishing contacts are useful, we already have a few decent sources for books. And while getting deals with Verenans and perhaps to a lesser degree Quinsberry is important, it doesn't help that much for now because our purchasing capacity is limited and we still have tons of books to get from our existing contacts. Hell, we got the access to the college libraries last turn and didn't use it yet.

So my question is : How can we get more purchasing power for the library?

1. Better, more efficient sources. We can already get "more" bang for our buck with some of our sources and it's not impossible that Verenans or Quinsberry would offer us better deals than we already have. The problem is that we would have to resist the siren song of exclusive elven books (or any of our existing sources).

2. Raise our own income so we can buy more books ourselves. With the EIC being our main income, we have to balance using it as an economic powerhouse and/or an intelligence apparatus.

3. Get an increase in funding for the Library itself. Either from Belegar or other patrons, although I don't know if trying to get other patrons is even an option considering it might encroach on Belegar's pride. If it's possible, I'd love to perhaps get the EIC to be a patron of the Library but we would have to make it worthwhile for other shareholders perhaps start a private printing house and give the EIC access to the collection?

I do think that getting the Verenans and perhaps Quinsberry on board early is probably more pressing for now but I do wonder when we'll even make use of those connections (especially in the case of Quinsberry I find it hard to believe we'll buy their books soon when we have so may other options).

Something to think on I guess...

 

[ReImagined]

So my question is : How can we get more purchasing power for the library?

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Well, having a place to actually put those books in would probably be a good start. I'm sure things will change once the Library is no longer under construction, and again when we've staffed the place and it starts to gain foot traffic.

 

[K von Carstein]

... But it's the Halfling polity, not to disparage them but their biggest thing is food and agriculture, which is nice enough I guess, but I als feel like they don't really do great breakthrough innovations...

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Yes, why is the Halfling god of knowledge prioritised above the goddess of libraries?

[X] Plan Compromise + Verenans

[X] Plan Compromise and Lay Foundations

 

[Andres]

[X] Plan Compromise

 

[Zero Gravitas]

2. Raise our own income so we can buy more books ourselves. With the EIC being our main income, we have to balance using it as an economic powerhouse and/or an intelligence apparatus.

3. Get an increase in funding for the Library itself. Either from Belegar or other patrons, although I don't know if trying to get other patrons is even an option considering it might encroach on Belegar's pride. If it's possible, I'd love to perhaps get the EIC to be a patron of the Library but we would have to make it worthwhile for other shareholders perhaps start a private printing house and give the EIC access to the collection?

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Our purchasing power is 'yes'. If the books can be acquired with less gold than a gyrocarriage can carry then there's no issues on the purchasing side.

The limits are going to be determined by logistics and availability concerns.

 

[ReImagined]

Yes, why is the Halfling god of knowledge prioritised above the goddess of libraries?

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If you're looking for a summary, @Redshirt Army gives a good framing of it, and you can find my own reasoning here:

What ultimately convinced me of Quinsberry was how congruent it is with previous themes in DL:

Start slowly, like an avalanche.

The more success we have with the library to start, the more we can leverage that to get greater success later. Because of K8P's specific relation and history with the halflings, Mathilde is in an unusually good position to get a copy of their records, and possibly make a deal to get some future exchanges and some staffing as well.

This can then act as a selling point for future deals with other libraries, as a counterbalance to future domination by any one outside group, and as an early start on one of the libraries founding principles of having librarians of any race that swears the oaths.

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[SyntheticSynthia]

[X] Plan Compromise + Verenans

 

[primemountain]

BTW, why are we contacting our future rivals about cooperating in founding the library?

People do get that the Karak Peaks Library is a direct attack at the standing and prestige of every major Verenian Library?

We're a growing threat to them, still in it's infancy. Short of getting them to take over the library, or some kind of permanent alliance where they have input into how the library is run, Verenian's are going to be a problem for it as much as they help. Every Goddess has weird extreme cults, on top of the political threat the Library represents.

After all, if the Library of K8Ps become the most prominent Library in the old world humans can access, a lot less power, favors, diplomatic, technical and political power will flow into the Verenian cult. So why are we going to the Verenian's again?

Do people think the assistance they provide will be worth the price to pay for it? Or are voters thinking they'll jump on the idea with religious fervor without also trying to influence it, or take it over and make it theirs, since it is in the domain of their Goddess?

If Verenian's get into the Library, I'll bet you within a decade one of the more zealous "all knowledge deserves to be free" types will try breaking into the secure stacks. With inside access, that type of threat becomes a lot more viable.