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The lore for elven lifespans in Warhammer is a little contradictory, but back in the day (High Elves army book, 4th ed), it used to be that they could theoretically live forever, but "faded" in a Tolkien-esque style with the passage of time, slowly becoming overcome with grief and fatigue at the world and slipping into ever longer comas until they were simply declared dead (that last point is still mentioned in some more recent WFRPG material, IIRC). So this would be what happened to the Phoenix Kings in Ulthuan, rather than being explicitly killed by old age. They didn't have anything specific to live for, so they fizzled out.

Malekith, at times, has been implied to survive through sheer stubborn anger, although more recent stuff ascribes it to "dark magic" in vague terms.
 
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Older lore has him banging Morathi. If he can find a way to boink his mom, he can find a way to bathe through the suit. I don't want to imagine what 5000 years of sweat stuck inside armor covering burnt flesh would smell like.

I do not think he is so much stuck inside the armor as it is welded to him the way Chaos Warriors are said to be to their Plate which can only be removed in death, hence the Darth Vader comparison,
 
The lore for elven lifespans in Warhammer is a little contradictory, but back in the day (High Elves army book, 4th ed), it used to be that they could theoretically live forever, but "faded" in a Tolkien-esque style with the passage of time, slowly becoming overcome with grief and fatigue at the world and slipping into ever longer comas until they were simply declared dead (that last point is still mentioned in some more recent WFRPG material, IIRC). So this would be what happened to the Phoenix Kings in Ulthuan, rather than being explicitly killed by old age. They didn't have anything specific to live for, so they fizzled out.

Malekith, at times, has been implied to survive through sheer stubborn anger, although more recent stuff ascribes it to "dark magic" in vague terms.
Bel Kordharis in 8th Edition does die immediately after completing the White Tower of Hoeth, which might support your statement on him not necessarily dying of old age but not having anything left to work for.

But then there's the fact that his ghost somehow haunts the crypts below the tower and helps scholars find books. Yeah sure. Librarian Ghost Phoenix King. Why not.
 
Bel Kordharis in 8th Edition does die immediately after completing the White Tower of Hoeth, which might support your statement on him not necessarily dying of old age but not having anything left to work for.

But then there's the fact that his ghost somehow haunts the crypts below the tower and helps scholars find books. Yeah sure. Librarian Ghost Phoenix King. Why not.
To be fair, it's probably a lot less tiring to be a ghost. You don't have to worry about any of your responsibilities and can just float around spooking people.

Also, I mis-cited a moment ago - the modern reference to elves not dying in quite the same way as humans, but instead spending more and more time in a comatose state to the point where it's difficult to tell when they've actually passed away, is from High Elves 8th edition, not WFRPG.
 
My head canon is that Malekith is more a spirit made physical by the armour of midnight than a flesh and blood being.

Removes a lot of the yuck factor.
 
Pulled out from the depth of my Steam library a TWW2, and started a Thorek Ironbrow campaign. He has some pretty curious mechanics: he must seek parts of Dawi artifacts from the gold age spread across the Old World and reforge them anew.

I wonder if this quest's Thorek is also looking for them?
 
Pulled out from the depth of my Steam library a TWW2, and started a Thorek Ironbrow campaign. He has some pretty curious mechanics: he must seek parts of Dawi artifacts from the gold age spread across the Old World and reforge them anew.

I wonder if this quest's Thorek is also looking for them?
That's how he became as good as he is:
The secret of his success is yoloing into fallen Dwarfholds at the head of a Kazador-trained Throng and looting ancient forgotten secrets by the cartful. He's actually pretty average at pure Kragg-style R&D, which is why he doesn't really do much of it and why his signature Rune is still in its prototype phase.
And it's also what he wants to do with Karaz Ghumzul's ruins:
"Two," he says frankly. "First, the descendants of ancient Dawi treason live fat, happy lives within Middenheim. There are many wrongs that must be punished before their own inherited sins are a priority for the Karaz Ankor, but they still hold the keys to Karaz Ghumzul. I need allies in the Empire to bring pressure to bear on them so they will surrender those keys, so that I might harvest a beginning of repayment from its ruins."
 
Interesting.

Though I gather he hasn't found Karak Zorn yet, eh? Maybe we will get to participate in that expedition.
 
Yikes. They're basically retconning the entire Treaty of Amity and Commerce into 'oh, the Elves? they've always been there, never left'. Yeah, no. Assume all 'Old World' stuff is completely non-canon.

I'm suddenly dreading the day when the wikis become overrun with this 'new canon' and I have to field a dozen questions a day based on information taken from them.
I've been sifting through Boney comments on the Exarchate of Elfsgementee as I'm proceeding through the Marienburg book, and I got struck by a feeling full of dread when I read this.

When I was checking settlements that were built on Elf Ruins in the Wiki, which had a list of them placed in "Categories" I saw a bunch of Bretonnia locations there that confused me a bit. Primarily because the actual wiki article didn't say they were built on Elf ruins, and the source for that wasn't given. I realised though that that information was plucked from "Warhammer the Old World" Bretonnia faction map that introduced a bunch of new Elven factions in Bretonnia that never left.

I already had to be careful with the wiki, now I have to be extra careful. Thankfully my personal list of Elf/Dwarf ruins wasn't lifted from there, but I currently share Boney's dread over the wiki adding more Old World information that confuses things.
 
According to interviews I've read, a big part of the reason for Age of Sigmar is that the c-suite found it annoying that it took a modicum of effort to get every faction in one place to thunderdome for big events. In 40k they can just say 'there's something shiny on this planet and everyone's coming on their spaceships to get it!' but in Fantasy you have to actually come up with reasons for factions from five different continents to show up. That's why Age of Sigmar is all portals, it makes it extremely easy for them to get anyone to anywhere when the metaplot demands it.

I'm getting the impression that part of that same motivation is leaking in to The Old World. Elf colonies off every coastline is a big retcon that really detracts from their whole 'fading glory' thing, and the only reason I can see for why they'd do it is to make it trivial to suck Ulthuan in to whatever events are happening in the Old World. What next, Tomb Kings in the Empire? Lizardmen in Cathay? Dwarves in Naggaroth? Wood Elves in... wait, they already put Wood Elves on every continent in Total Warhammer. Oh dear.

I worry that the Warhammer world is going to start feeling a lot smaller and a lot blander if you can always find every faction on every continent.
 
To be fair, as someone mentioned, this is something that coastal Lustria once was, that you had colonial ventures or merchants/pirates from almost every faction there. This was discarded later on as GW flattened Lustria as a setting, preferring to focus on the Old World (and Empire).

And, to be fair, I can see it making sense for the Elves to have little trading posts appearing in this era. After all, the reason that the high elves weren't present in the Old World Weber because of their fading glory, it's because they avoided the place after the conclusion of the War of the Beard. They apparently maintained contact with Araby and their colonial possessions/wayports throughout the rest of the world. It's the Old World that was the exception to having high elves off/on every coast, not the rule.

Finubar's ascension leading to a policy change and eleven merchant houses taking advantage to lease places to found enclaves along the Bretonnian coast wouldn't be too implausible. There was more than one British treaty port in Far East Asia, after all.
 
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To be fair, as someone mentioned, this is something that coastal Lustria once was, that you had colonial ventures or merchants/pirates from almost every faction there. This was discarded later on as GW flattened Lustria as a setting, preferring to focus on the Old World (and Empire).

And, to be fair, I can see it making sense for the Elves to have little trading posts appearing in this era. After all, the reason that the high elves weren't present in the Old World Weber because of their fading glory, it's because they avoided the place after the conclusion of the War of the Beard. They apparently maintained contact with Araby and their colonial possessions/wayports throughout the rest of the world. It's the Old World that was the exception to having high elves off/on every coast, not the rule.

Finubar's ascension leading to a policy change and eleven merchant houses taking advantage to lease places to found enclaves along the Bretonnian coast wouldn't be too implausible. There was more than one British treaty port in Far East Asia, after all.

Thematically the elves and dwarfs are about fading glory, they should be isolated and unable to colonize other lands even if they wished, it detracts from the story to have their settlements pop up like mushrooms all over the place. I mean consider the notion that the Bretonians learned the aesthetic of chivalry by imitating the art of abandoned elven cities, that is a very somber and introspective moment that speaks of the passing of the elves and the lessening of the world, how men take for their own the unwitting gifts of the firstborn... all that kind of goes out the window is those same men can ask Joe the elf Trader about those funky ruins.
 
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Thematically the elves and dwarfs are about fading glory, they should be isolated and unable to colonize other lands even if they wished, it detracts from the story to have their settlements pop up like mushrooms all over the place. I mean consider the notion that the Bretonians learned the aesthetic of chivalry by imitating the art of abandoned elven cities, that is a very somber and introspective moment that speaks of the passing of the elves and the lessening of the world, how men take for their own the unwitting gifts of the firstborn... all that kind of goes out the window is those same men can ask Joe the elf Trader about those funky ruins.

Yes, but just as the dwarves are having a resurgence in the Mathilde age, the return of the high elves to the Old World in the new age ushered in by Finubar, where they'd previously faded into myth but are now walking the lands again is a symbol of hope. The Phoenix King is a symbol of rebirth and renewal after all. Asuryan embodies the elven belief that they are the masters of their fate, and nothing, not even the inevitability of death, can keep them down. That's who Finubar is, the symbol of the elves resurgent, no longer content with fading glories but determined to reconnect with the world and earn new glories.

This isn't 40K. Everything isn't an inevitable spiral down to doom. With the right leadership and a bit of luck, recovery is possible. And that's what the return of the elves could be all about. Unfortunately, this is of course GW, and that kind of subtly is usually beyond it.
 
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Yes, but just as the dwarves are having a resurgence in the Mathilde age, the return of the high elves to the Old World in the new age ushered in by Finubar, where they'd previously faded into myth but are now walking the lands again is a symbol of hope. The Phoenix King is a symbol of rebirth and renewal after all. Asuryan embodies the elven belief that they are the masters of their fate, and nothing, not even the inevitability of death, can keep them down. That's who Finubar is, the symbol of the elves resurgent, no longer content with fading glories but determined to reconnect with the world and earn new glories.

This isn't 40K. Everything isn't an inevitable spiral down to doom. With the right leadership and a bit of luck, recovery is possible. And that's what the return of the elves could be all about. Unfortunately, this is of course GW, and that kind of subtly is usually beyond it.

The thing is none of the things that have made the elves fade changed simply because they got a king who likes to sail. Even with all we have done in this quest, and it was some serious victories at low cost the dwarfs are still not resurgent, it's more like there might be a path to resurgence. What did Finubar do to compare to the triumph that was restoring one Karak with barely hundreds of losses and tearing one out of the warp with its population intact and miraculously uncorrupted?
 
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all that kind of goes out the window is those same men can ask Joe the elf Trader about those funky ruins.

Not as unlikely as it might seem. 1) While elves have the potential to be old enough to remember what this or that ruin was, chances are that Joe the elf Trader isn't one of those and 2) elves also have the potential to be smug bastards and deflect questions regardless of if they know the answer or not.
 
Not as unlikely as it might seem. 1) While elves have the potential to be old enough to remember what this or that ruin was, chances are that Joe the elf Trader isn't one of those and 2) elves also have the potential to be smug bastards and deflect questions regardless of if they know the answer or not.

Joe might not be able to recall the city when it was living, but he would still know history, he would also be a trader and thus interested in selling them his cargo so he does not get foreclosed by the elf bank. This is not the aloof and mysterious wood elves, like shadows in the depths of the woods, this is a very mundane person in a very mundane setting taking you right out of the whole scene.
 
Hey Boney, is the Skaven numerology from Qretch's story something you came up with yourself? Can it be added to the important info collection?
The number 13 being considered holy to the Skaven is a canon thing, but the rest was of Boney's own making, as I recall.
It was actually inspired by a post from @Garlak:
- With thanks to @Garlak for bringing the existence of Skaven numerology to my attention.
So, funny thing. One of the few things I remember from briefly reading the beginning/prologue parts of one of the End Times books, was a little scene for the Skaven. (I don't know if this idea originated in the End Times books, or if this was an established idea for Skaven already and the writer just made use of it in the book and this just happened to be the first time I personally stumbled acros it.) It was the Council of 13 gathering, and... one part of it that stuck with me and which I thought was kind of cool and very Skaven, was this:

The scene talks about how the Skaven head for the meeting, and it says that Skaven would gather in 1s and 3s, because any other number results in Skaven backstabbing!

'With 1 Skaven, you obviously can't backstab yourself.'
'With 2 Skaven, they're going to scheme against each other and its hopeless.'
'But with 3? No 2 Skaven would be able to trust each other not to backstab each other long enough to backstab the third.'

I thought it was cool because it worked with Skaven numerology; making 13 and 1 and 3 be important numbers to their culture. (I don't remember if it said anything about Skaven grouping together in 4s or 5s -- it's possible that, this being a gathering of 13, they also placed greater importance upon 1 and 3. Or because other Skaven would be too distrustful of anybody that arrived in such a big group as 4 or 5 or 6 people; it would be a threat to them. And so, to satisfy their own distrust and paranoia, and to make it possible to gather without spooking every other member, they had to do it in lesser numbers than going in with like 7 and 6 Skaven.)

It's possible that they also might have distrusted groups of 2 Skaven coming to the council, not because they'd stab each other before they got there... but because it was possible for 2 Skaven to not mess with each other -- and that such a détente or peace treaty would not be liked by any of the other gathered members. Also, if you came with your buddy, it's a blatant tipoff isn't it? Everybody now knows you've got somebody you trust enough to travel with, and knows who it is. 1 and 3 provide plausible deniability, security, and a balance of treachery.

It's amazing. You'd think 3 would be the number at which 2 Skaven would scheme against the 3rd, and dead they go. But no. 3 is the point at which, because they are expecting everybody to cross and double-cross and triple-cross, they arrive at a Mexican Standoff of treachery.

3 is the number at which Skaven Chronic Backstabbing Disorder would Three Stooges Syndrome itself!

And I remembered it because, heck, that was really cool right? And for how amusing it was. And because it presented a story for why the Skaven would value 1s and 3s.


So your post where you analyzed why Skryre and Eshin suddenly backed off a lot, and concluded that it might be because 3 could 'trust' each other enough to be able to prioritize Mors, but with 2 the balance of quantum-treachery breaks down?

Yeah. Yeah, totally valid. Not just valid in fact, but pretty damn good convergent evolution of ideas -- you've just stumbled upon and described some Skaven cultural numerology/psychology.
 
The thing is none of the things that have made the elves fade changed simply because they got a king who likes to sail. Even with all we have done in this quest, and it was some serious victories at low cost the dwarfs are still not resurgent, it's more like there might be a path to resurgence. What did Finubar do to compare to the triumph that was restoring one Karak with barely hundreds of losses and tearing one out of the warp with its population intact and miraculously uncorrupted?

Had hope, and inspired his people to have hope. He's also, apparently, a diplomat. He established the embassy in Altdorf, and depending on the final view Boney takes on it, established those same trading posts we were talking about. Negotiating with the King and Dukes of Bretonnia to re-establish them could well be an epic achievement.

More subtly, Finubar is literally has prophetic insight. He can, for example, tell if someone could be important to the future by looking at them, so he knows who to sponsor. Part of this is Asuryan's blessing to him as the Phoenix King, but he had some degree of this before hand, when to would always just know the weather in advance.

Finubar also spent more than the first century of his reign travelling and being a diplomat, trying to build alliances, to the degree that the Everqueen had to slap his court down and tell them to behave.

Finubars great triumphs may well not be in individual grand battles and deeds, but the incremental effects of decades of arranging for potential heroes to be nurtured and ready in the right place at the right time, and building friendships and alliances throughout the world aside from the Old World, such as in Ind where he was given his sword. The right nudge in the right place guided by something like precognition may have as much long term effect.

As a side note, this divinely enhanced perception of potential importance might explain a lot about his attitude to Asarnil. The living presence of the Flame of Asuryan within him may have known that Asarnil and Deathfang were needed in the Old World but that they also needed to be renegades so the dwarves would work with them, so encouraged him to take the uncharacteristic approach he did.
 
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Joe might not be able to recall the city when it was living, but he would still know history, he would also be a trader and thus interested in selling them his cargo so he does not get foreclosed by the elf bank. This is not the aloof and mysterious wood elves, like shadows in the depths of the woods, this is a very mundane person in a very mundane setting taking you right out of the whole scene.

Not necessary. Knowing history in broad strokes is very different from knowing every abandoned site of Elven past glory, and traders don't have a particular reason to learn specifics unless they specialize in antiques.

Besides, the contrast between awe-inspiring ruins and unremarkable trading port is a lesson in itself.
 
Had hope, and inspired his people to have hope. He's also, apparently, a diplomat. He established the embassy in Altdorf, and depending on the final view Boney takes on it, established those same trading posts we were talking about.

More subtly, Finubar is literally has prophetic insight. He can, for example, tell if someone could be important to the future by looking at them, so he knows who to sponsor. Part of this is Asuryan's blessing to him as the Phoenix King, but he had some degree of this before hand, when to would always just know the weather in advance.

Finubar also spent more than the first century of his reign travelling and being a diplomat, trying to build alliances, to the degree that the Everqueen had to slap his court down and tell them to behave.

Finubars great triumphs may well not be in individual grand battles and deeds, but the incremental effects of decades of arranging for potential heroes to be nurtured and ready in the right place at the right time, and building friendships and alliances throughout the world aside from the Old World, such as in Ind where he was given his sword. The right nudge in the right place guided by something like precognition may have as much long term effect.

As a side note, this divinely enhanced perception of potential importance might explain a lot about his attitude to Asarnil. The living presence of the Flame of Asuryan within him may have known that Asarnil and Deathfang were needed in the Old World but that they also needed to be renegades so the dwarves would work with them, so encouraged him to take the uncharacteristic approach he did.

Ah... sorry not buying it, nothing or very little changes from having contact with the empire, it is not like the empire is that important in the grand scheme of things, the high elves had human contacts elsewhere like Tilea Estalia and Araby. Finubar did very little but er... fail to repel a Druchi invasion and needed to be bailed out by a pair of teenagers. Not very flattering to him but the twins had to steal the spotlight from someone.

Not necessary. Knowing history in broad strokes is very different from knowing every abandoned site of Elven past glory, and traders don't have a particular reason to learn specifics unless they specialize in antiques.

Besides, the contrast between awe-inspiring ruins and unremarkable trading port is a lesson in itself.

When the Bretonian tribesmen asks 'what are those folk of horses over there', Joe would still be able to name their Kingdom and likely their order, thus to the Bretonians elves both past and present would not be mysterious or worthy of imitation, as gods among men, they would just be people who used to live around here and now don't because they lost a war.
 
Ah... sorry not buying it, nothing or very little changes from having contact with the empire, it is not like the empire is that important in the grand scheme of things, the high elves had human contacts elsewhere like Tilea Estalia and Araby. Finubar did very little but er... fail to repel a Druchi invasion and needed to be bailed out by a pair of teenagers. Not very flattering to him but the twins had to steal the spotlight from someone.

Contacts with the Empire might not matter that much, however, he spent nearly a century and a half travelling the world as Phoenix King before the Great War visiting places that weren't the Empire.

If he made friendships and firmed up alliances in Bretonnia, Estalia, Tilea, Araby, the Southlands, Ind, Khuresh, Cathay, and Nippon, say, that may have made a huge difference to elven trade and global security. The fact that his achievements were outside the Empire so its scholars neither know nor care about them isn't a failing on his part. Prior to the Great War and the dark elf invasion it was apparently shaping up to be another Golden Age of peace and prosperity for the high elves.

And Finubar didn't fail to repel the dark elf invasion. As I said, Finubar recognised the potential importance of the twins in advance. A more sympathetic reading is that Finubar ensured that he had potential heroes in place to deal with the issue when it arose. They grew up in Finubar's court, IIRC. You're not being bailed out if it's something you put in place either as a prior plan or a contingency.
 
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Contacts with the Empire might not matter that much, however, he spent nearly a century and a half travelling the world as Phoenix King before the Great War visiting places that weren't the Empire.

If he made friendships and firmed up alliances in Bretonnia, Estalia, Tilea, Araby, the Southlands, Ind, Khuresh, Cathay, and Nippon, say, that may have made a huge difference to elven trade and global security. The fact that his achievements were outside the Empire so its scholars neither know nor care about them isn't a failing on his part. Prior to the Great War and the dark elf invasion it was apparently shaping up to be another Golden Age of peace and prosperity for the high elves.

And Finubar didn't fail to repel the dark elf invasion. As I said, Finubar recognised the potential importance of the twins in advance. A more sympathetic reading is that Finubar ensured that he had potential heroes in place to deal with the issue when it arose. They grew up in Finubar's court, IIRC. You're not being bailed out if it's something you put in place either as a prior plan or a contingency.
  1. All those were slow institutional things that literally any other king willing to look outwards could have done. In order to make Finubar look remarkable for a reign absent actual major victories you have to make every Pheonix King who came before him look like an idiot because it that it all it would have taken to make a sea change than they should have done it too.
  2. If the thing you put in place was teenagers to save your ass by going above and beyond any reasonable expectation that could be made of them you are not a genius, just a very lucky fool. I believe that is technically called 'a Dumbledore' in fantasy circles. :V
A kind reading to Finubar is that he did the best he could with limited resources, that he bought the time for the miracle that saved him at the last when the strength of the high elves had at last failed, but that is not really compatible with a resurgence on the scale it would take to put new colonies down. You do not go from almost loosing everything to being able to splurge on new ports which you have to defend in less than a generation.
 
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