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I think there is Dhar in the foundation of all vampires, in the elixir, the fact that all of them can eat Dhar at need seems to support that, after all the stuff most likely to draw Dhar in is more Dhar.

They don't draw in Dhar though, according to what we know. They suck up the nearby Winds of Magic with a 'vortex in their souls'* when they're hungry enough and in the process it becomes Dhar which they can use to sustain their souls but it alters them. I think there's something similar implied with Strigoi eating too many animals and taking on animal characteristics, which may be from incorporating Ghur into their souls, or might be the animal souls themselves.

The Elixir may or may not be Dhar based, we don't know. It might just be based on sacrificial magic using 'pure' human life force/bits of souls.

* I wonder if the souls of vampires is anything like a Waystone, which can also draw in the Winds of Magic. Wild theory time - vampire souls are like a miniaturised version of Nagash's Black Pyramid, which is also like an enormous primitive Waystone, but both lack the functionality to keep the Winds distinct like a true Waystone. A superior model of transhumanism than a vampire could be developed if you knew how to do so. Or, more pertinently for Mathilde, if you could selectively automatically draw in a single Wind.
 
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And yet you never once think to address the fact that she managed to do the very complex thing you mentioned to the Emissary? This isn't some impossible new feat, this is something she's already done. And something she's already done when the Emissary was infested with so much Dhar jewelry he gave her a headache. This isn't her first rodeo doing something like that.

As far as I recall that jewelry was also Slaaneshi so far from being a hindrance it helped confirm which dark god he served

* I wonder if the souls of vampires is anything like a Waystone, which can also draw in the Winds of Magic. Wild theory time - vampire souls are like a miniaturised version of Nagash's Black Pyramid, which is also like an enormous primitive Waystone, but both lack the functionality to keep the Winds distinct like a true Waystone. A superior model of transhumanism than a vampire could be developed if you knew how to do so. Or, more pertinently for Mathilde, if you could selectively automatically draw in a single Wind.

It would not even be automatic as long as you were already a wizard, you could just take a hour out of your day to manually eat some of your prefered wind
 
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Yummy Ulgu Mushroom Pie diet time? ;)
and for Ulgu, mincing, spicing, lightly cooking in butter, and being reduced to a paste that is placed inside a bite-sized pie. Careful study confirms that it still contains the magical energies, and further study confirms that it is delicious. The magic inside flows into you much faster
 
@Boney, plants are Mystical to Ghyran rather than Elemental because they're a product of how people think of it. Is something similar going on to why Ghyran's colour is the way that it is? Is it seen as green as often as it is because people associate it with green plants?

That applies to all the colours. The Winds aren't directly perceivable with regular sight, so any associations with the visible colour spectrum is down to culture and tradition.

@Boney can we bring WEBMAT along when we go investigate a waystone? Would there be any obvious downside to doing so versus going alone?

That's covered by this:
[ ] Lay the foundations: work with the current members of WEB-MAT and the Waystone Project to build a single unified framework for understanding the Waystones

I really don't get this. Out of game, it seems pretty clear that the reason to do it this way is to have multiple evil factions that, for some reason, need some reason to fight each other besides 'chaos fights itself'.

But in game? The winds carry the intent of the dark gods, separated into the winds to make it harder for them. But Dhar is a recombining, an evil and corruptive one. Why *isn't* it chaos? The chaos wastes cover the area where Dhar is up north. Demons can use Dhar to manifest. It is returned by the great vortex 'to where it came from'.

So I struggle to understand how having a soul made of Dhar renders you immune to chaos, rather than giving it leverage on you. What creates the separation? It seems... Arbitrary and unsupported. Especially given the massive overlap between effects, location, and style of use.

Anyone have any in-universe attempts to answer this?

Edit: it seems like something the plotter would do- create a faction that serves the same purposes as chaos warriors but thought themselves independent, only to discover that they were in fact tools the entire time.

Vampires aren't just the product of Dhar, they're the creation of Nagash, who was one of the greatest geniuses the world has ever seen and had no intention of bowing to any God.

@Boney can we take College Classes with a coworker as a WEB-MAT action, if we cover their costs?

That sounds reasonable, sure.
 
It would not even be automatic as long as you were already a wizard, you could just take a hour out of your day to manually eat some of your prefered wind

Presumably the reason we want it to be automatic (given vampires are granted magical talent), is so that your soul is still nourished if your body and mind are rendered inactive.
We just need to figure out how to make our body run on it. Killing said body and leaving it in a state of unlife may or may not be required. :V

Depending on who you believe, vampires bodies may not even have to be dead, although Necrachs may prefer them that way.
 
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Should we ever have another encounter with Clan Eshin, we should definitely try and steal their Grimoires. Clearly what Mathilde needs is yet another temptation to break the Articles in the name of intellectual curiosity :V
Honestly, when the Waystones business is concluded and if the Choas invasion begins, I wouldn't say no to Mathilde mastering more tools… even if said tools are trying to bite her hand:V

Dumb double standards with regards to soul pollution preventing us from the glory that is solving all our problems with legions of the untimely dead. -.-
Necromancy is so 2145, the Lore of Stealth is the new hotness!:V
 
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You know what, I'm going to argue in favour of taking the Rituals class this time, as our AV action.

Powerstone creation is done via ritual, so learning about rituals will naturally help us with learning to create them. For a single class it would admittedly be overkill to take an extra action for a bonus. But AV creation is going to involve taking the standard Powerstone creation method for Ulgu and adapting it to AV, and I think that a better understanding of rituals would be extremely helpful for that. (I'm pretty sure that divine rituals are also a thing, but that's probably further down that tree.)

I also think that it's very likely that knowledge of rituals is going to be relevant to the investigation of Waystones. They're what's used to accomplish particularly large, permanent effects, which very much sound like Waystones to me. Of course enchanting will also be relevant, but I expect that the foremost magical infrastructure in existence is going to involve both.

I think that knowledge of rituals would be useful in other places as well. Kragg surmised that when we earned the Coin, we did it by interrupting a ritual with a counter-ritual, but without him we'd frankly have no clue as such.
Mathilde has in fact already made use of rituals at around the same time, to scale a regular spell up to encompass a larger area, so this skill can be used to modify our spells for the situation, given some prep time EDIT: Apparently this is just a nomenclature ambiguity, and this wasn't true ritual casting.

This is an entire branch of magic that we don't really know about, and I think it would behoove us to have a good enough understanding of it to at least recognise what's happening when we see one, even if we have no plans to construct mighty world-changing rituals ourselves (though I'm sure we could come up with some good ideas for those, too.) If nothing else, they tend to be big and important enough that knowing might be very important indeed.

Finally, it's a College class, and that means it fits in nicely as an AV action on a turn where we're struggling to fit one in. If we take the Sevirroscope with Egrimm and this class with Max or Johann, that gives us an extra WEB-MAT action to use on something else, which it would be nice not to miss out on.
 
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Ritual casting is different to normal rituals because I didn't give the terminology enough thought early on. 'Channelled casting' or 'overcasting' would be a better term for it.
 
I would really like to have more people on board before we spare an AP for more training.
Well, my thinking was that it would let us squeeze out an extra AP by making it a WEB-MAT action and getting the free AP, where people were talking about not using that this turn. It's sort of related to AV, so it would bridge that gap by not taking up a non-WEB-MAT action on AV when AP is so tight.
 
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Necromancy is so 2145, the Lore of Stealth is the new hotness!:V
Look, the entire point of necromancy is to take something old and decrepated and give it a new and shiny look! As the very incarnation of the 30 Year Cycle, necromancers are always very hot!

Why else do you think Imperials keep adding necromancers to their pyres? You just slam one of these bad boys onto a pile of sticks and FWOOOSH! Instant fireplace.
 
So, based on the responses I've gotten about Dhar, I have to ask.

Demons: are they Dhar or not Dhar?
 
So, based on the responses I've gotten about Dhar, I have to ask.

Demons: are they Dhar or not Dhar?
Not Dhar.
Dhar is the raw stuff of chaos that has come through the Polar Gates, been transformed into the various Winds of magic, then either stagnated or been corrupted into reverting to something more like, but still distinct from, its original form.

Demons are not made of Dhar. They would create it as ambient magic reacts to their presence, but the stuff they are made of has never surrendered to the influence of this world.
Demons are the raw stuff of chaos, yes, but they were never transformed into the Winds of magic and then transformed again in a new and terrible way. They're just the raw stuff of chaos given physical form.
 
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There's also this, from the early days in the basement Palace.
It is suspended in an eternal free-fall, forever unable to either heal or die. And in that state it constantly drains magical energies into reality.

That realization sends a shudder through you. If the demon that pursued you was any other warp-entity, the energies leaking out would... well, you'd be lucky if they were only Dhar. But this is the All-Knowing Serpent, Wisdom's Asp, and apparently the ever-shifting hue of its scales is mirrored by the pure combination of magical energies that it is formed from. Instead of liquid corruption pouring forth, this is pure, untainted, liquid magic.
 
Ok, that seems odd. Like, you can have a horribly corrupted evil persons mutated by the touch of dark magic as a completely separate and unrelated thing to the horribly corrupted evil persons mutated by the touch of dark magic.

Like, idk- the conceptual overlap between Dhar and chaos *seems* like it should make Dhar a domain of the dark gods, except that it in fact provides protection against them somehow? (Vampires and the quote up thread about it being almost impossible to get a chaotic vampire?)
 
Ok, that seems odd. Like, you can have a horribly corrupted evil persons mutated by the touch of dark magic as a completely separate and unrelated thing to the horribly corrupted evil persons mutated by the touch of dark magic.

Like, idk- the conceptual overlap between Dhar and chaos *seems* like it should make Dhar a domain of the dark gods, except that it in fact provides protection against them somehow? (Vampires and the quote up thread about it being almost impossible to get a chaotic vampire?)
You're equating Chaos with Dark Magic. You can be mutated by Chaos without ever touching magic at all. Chaos is divine, Dhar is arcane.
 
You're equating Chaos with Dark Magic. You can be mutated by Chaos without ever touching magic at all. Chaos is divine, Dhar is arcane.

But morreslieb is warpstone is solidified Dhar, and that drives most of the chaotic mutations outside the wastes, right?

Alternate questions- is there any dark magic without Dhar? I thought the use of Dhar was what made it dark magic. If not, what is dark magic? If so, does that mean you can have chaos god casters who use the lore of their gods without Dhar and so are not caring dark magic?
 
Like, idk- the conceptual overlap between Dhar and chaos *seems* like it should make Dhar a domain of the dark gods, except that it in fact provides protection against them somehow? (Vampires and the quote up thread about it being almost impossible to get a chaotic vampire?)

IIRC, vampires aren't immune to chaos because their souls are made of dhar - I think their souls aren't even made of dhar - but because their souls are entirely within the material world. Essentially the chaos gods interact with their followers by interacting with the portion of a person's soul that extends into the aethyr. However because a vampire's soul is entirely within the material world they lack the bits that chaos can use to tempt and interact with. Ergo they are immune to chaos corruption. I have no doubt that the chaos gods would love to corrupt vampires if they could, but unless a vampire physically enters the aethyr, they just have nothing to work with.
 
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