Lessons like these should be plaqued to the family tree for posterity across the generations yo!
Warhammer Fantasy: A Dynasty of Dynamic Alcoholism
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Lessons like these should be plaqued to the family tree for posterity across the generations yo!
Who knows. It may happen. He sure did pray for something like that.
Butterfly effect , man.
Well, I could write that he had many siblings same as his father and grandfather before. But this sounded better .
... this is getting more attention than I expected...
also yay, my first [canon] omake!
Man, am I chappy to get a reactions like this. been in my head for way too long.
Also, who knows...
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Something I've been confused about on my first read and again while re-reading.
What would their judgment have been if Grimli hadn't agreed to a duel?
"This does not end the grudge" is what puzzles me since they made everyone swear to accept whatever judgment is given.
Part of their job is dealing with actually dealing with Grudges that require more than just regular old Vengeance and a good axe. Some Grudges require methodical thinking, and also being exposed to the devastating aftereffects of a Grudge struck out recklessly/incompletely/with too much collateral. While they also work as part of the greater Grudge system in their culture, and champion it, they also know that there can be certain frictional issues that can cause problems if some Grudges are not fully determined cleared or not. And that sometimes, guilty parties must be VERY clearly determined, lest the one with the Grudge strike out at the wrong target.
They were stating that 'we think you don't have a case, but we know that you will refuse to accept this' i.e. 'This does not end the grudge', they were not saying it themselves they were acknowledging that the other party - including his general demeanor and conduct - was dishonorable and disrespectful to the process. They would have pressed him to control and contain himself, to accept their judgement, and to find a method of recompense between the two parties, but before they could, they jumped straight to 'we will duel it out'. Hence why they were depressed. They knew it was entirely likely to happen, but wished to offer alternatives, because as Reckoners they can, but such was not to be done on that day. If he had refused said pressing, and the duel bit hadn't happened, then they would have come down hard on him, specifically, for like you said, despite swearing to accept the judgement. They were basically leading up to 'and now you get punished/Grudged/Oath-breaker-named' but the dwarfs jumped to honor duel before they could, and the they had to respect that.
They were stating that 'we think you don't have a case, but we know that you will refuse to accept this' i.e. 'This does not end the grudge', they were not saying it themselves they were acknowledging that the other party - including his general demeanor and conduct - was dishonorable and disrespectful to the process. They would have pressed him to control and contain himself, to accept their judgement, and to find a method of recompense between the two parties, but before they could, they jumped straight to 'we will duel it out'. Hence why they were depressed. They knew it was entirely likely to happen, but wished to offer alternatives, because as Reckoners they can, but such was not to be done on that day. If he had refused said pressing, and the duel bit hadn't happened, then they would have come down hard on him, specifically, for like you said, despite swearing to accept the judgement. They were basically leading up to 'and now you get punished/Grudged/Oath-breaker-named' but the dwarfs jumped to honor duel before they could, and the they had to respect that.
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Massgamer
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Which includes finding resolutions that, especially among dwarfs when possible, don't involve those things. Most Reckoners would likely prefer if they could settle most personal grudges with fines, non-lethal action, judgements, etc, which they tend to do to help avoid clan wars.
We saw a bit of that during the interlude where the grudge of invention thief was reasoned down and the judgement being allowing one party to smash the invention of the other, with no reprisal grudges allowed after the fact since the judgement was made clear.
yannoshka
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Eh, a slight correction there.
Grudge of idea theft was dismissed in fully, and it was determined that no recompense should be offered nor given.
The smashing was a recompense for one master having purposefully attacked and damaged/destroyed the other's prototype before they ever formally raised a complaint with the guild and/or the grudge.
In effect, it was damage given for damage taken.
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We could try giving them a seed from the family tree. Considering what it is a hybrid of, and potential second hand blessings from the bonding ritual, it's seeds could be quite valuable.
Currently at work, I sit at the other end of this.
Literally everyday multiple people phone and ask "Do I need to fill out this claimant form?". Yes, especially the bit about which bank account number the money should be credited to because otherwise the cheque is literally in the mail. To an adress the claimant might never have seen to verify that whoever reported the claim had actually written it down correctly.
There is also a good chance there are multiple genuine "you" registered in the database, especially if you have been a claimant yourself.
This probably doesn't apply to you but the number of times people or their brokers straight mix up their current insurance (or insurer) with one that isn't anymore is also distressingly high.
Another classic is handing in legal claims and such weeks to months after the due date (Bonus: Sometimes this is the first time the insurance hears there was a case going at all)
And firms that should know better using only their own reference number or better "reminder to our last letter from date to this matter".
Finally there is the good old "just mail it in with no reference whatsoever" approach to handing in repair bills and such.
Bonus: Seeing "Verify Adress, moved to unknown destination" is always fun but especially when it appears on the file of a literal sub-division.
So while I totally get your frustration I am currently in the black box, as a minor part, and there are so many easy ways people can trip themselves up without the insurance even trying to weasel out of the claim.
I used to be involved in an insurance startup. More than once, we heard stories from employees of the carriers who receive claims being instructed to throw them away straight from the fax machine, which then made it 'lost'. Just so the person submitting the claim would have to go through the process of submitting it again, and a large enough percentage of people just give up somewhere along the way that the carriers get to save a significant amount.
Can you talk more about this? Why grudges exist, what happens if a dwarf has cause to declare a grudge and does not, what happens before the grudge is fulfilled if it's neglected. You've represented it before during Karak Ungor, as they were striking them out from the list of grudges, curious to hear more
Can you talk more about this? Why grudges exist, what happens if a dwarf has cause to declare a grudge and does not, what happens before the grudge is fulfilled if it's neglected. You've represented it before during Karak Ungor, as they were striking them out from the list of grudges, curious to hear more
I assume this is Natasha speaking,
Edit: Or pertaining to the Nordland campaign, as she was also there right.
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She's probably referring to the Count of plagues Nordland campaign. Which she was there for, if you'll recall.
I mean...'why grudges exist' is sorta just...because they do? Dwarfs when they feel they are wronged can and will declare a Grudge. It's a part of their psychology and society, to try and gain recompense through one measure or another from being wronged.
"When I were but a lad, my father, the King, taught me three things: Never accept a gift from an Elf, never trust gold that glistens in the darkness, never forget a grudge. On his deathbed I swore to uphold those values to me own dying day, and Grungni willing, I will."
—King Alrik Ranulfsson of Karak Hirn.
Dwarfs have a rigid and unyielding sense of honour, which is centred around oaths or a promise. A promise does not die with an oath-maker, nor does treachery die with an oath-breaker. A Dwarf will be bound to an unfulfilled promise made by an ancestor, and will commit themselves to their fulfilment. Likewise, they will look to the descendants of oathbreakers for recompense. Serious breaches of faith against the Dwarfs are recorded in the Book of Grudges. This massive tome is kept in Karaz-a-Karak, the capital of the old Dwarf Empire, and constitutes something of a chronicle of Dwarf history. < from one of the dwarf infobooks, 1ED in fact. So it's been part of the setting for a long time, nothing to contradict it.
There's plenty to not take precisely from Total War Warhammer, but the Grudge system is reasonably good, including the old one. Specifically, to let a Grudge linger is a shame - not just on your character and being, but on your family, your Clan, your Guild, your Hold, etc. Sometimes, Grudges cannot be struck out in a timely manner, like you could die of old age as a dwarf, and the Grudge will still remain and it is your descendants responsibility to take it up and try their best to fulfill it. Sometimes, you can give reasonable warning, like with the missing gold/copper for that one Castle thing. Other times, you killed my father, I need to ensure you die. Or if you die from old age, your kids have to die, and if I die before I can kill you or your kids, then my kids have to do it.
It's endemic to them. Remember, while they might share a lot of things, there are just some things that show the dwarfs and elves as non-human. They can have very human reactions, or from their perspective, many humans can have very dwarf-like reactions, or very elf-like perspectives and behavior. But they aren't. Allies. Yes. Friends, yes. Lovers? Eh...perhaps, in a few weird cases. But they aren't human. Dwarfs are generally expected to be outraged over wrongs, furious, demanding, vehement about getting them solved, but it also means that more Grudges fill their Books than can be struck out in a reasonable manner. Sometimes it can be a petty grudge, sometimes not. You spilled my beer is not necessarily a Grudging, but you spilled my great grandfather's tankard onto the ground and spat on it with your dirty foul mouth and kicked it away after you slipped on the ground and landed so hard that your barely held in diarrea sprayed all over it and then insulted me over getting in your way? That's a Grudge, probably, even if it might not be a killing Grudge. There are multiple ways to 'finish' a Grudge, killing is just the most loud of them. Weregild is also a thing, depending on what the Grudge was about and the dwarf in question.
Sometimes, a dwarf might consider a Grudge satisfactorily dealt with, and even if in the future, some of his children might look back and think, he should have done more/gotten more, the ancestor veneration and elder worship of their culture means that they'll most likely not actually denigrate or spew about it. Because he was the elder, the ancestor, and they're not going to criticize what he did or didn't do.
It doesn't have to happen, though.
IC, it was considered a very big deal when after Thorgrim and Tyrion both worked together to save the Everqueen's daughter, and Tyrion insulted them at the battle's conclusion and was being a real jerk about things, the longbeards and clan leaders with Thorgrim went 'GRUDGE GRUDGE GRUDGE GRUDGE' because he insulted them!
Did he attack them, no, did he kill some of them, no, he just criticized them a lot because he felt they were too slow and that's why the effort went bad. And plenty of the leading dwarf cultural figures at the time said 'PUT HIM IN THE BOOK'. Now, was the 'striking out' clause for that Grudge in particular going to be bloodletting? Not necessarily, but possible. He could have apologized 'sufficiently' enough, and that might have solved it as well. But Thorgrim said 'no, not this time' and shocked all of them. And they went on their way, grumbling, but without a Grudge causing even worse strained issues later down the line.
I'm a little scattered at the moment, so this isn't super comprehensive or complete, but hope this is something!
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You know, I always found Dwarfs to be Viking/feudal East Asia like. They have all the viking aesthetics, but their focus on personal honor and ancestor worship is very much like old China or Japan. There are shrine to your ancestors there, and personal insults(at least with Nobles) could start a multi-generational feud.
Trust me, no one holds grudges like old asian ladies(they also get scarier with age)
Trust me, no one holds grudges like old asian ladies(they also get scarier with age)
huh, the Volgenzollerns ...
heh.
RL takes priority. We can wait.
I have often considered the psychological need for grudges to be an unavoidable consequence of their virtues. Dwarves ability to craft better than anyone with such skill and precision is not just tied to their senses but their mental abilities to track details. To see all the potential and details of the stone, the metal the beer and anything they craft. So it's not really obsessive behaviour for them. It's just the way they are. And writing down a grudge actually helps them to not have to think about whatever vexed them all the time so as to distract them. They cannot forget in totality. But they can ease the weight of it a bit. Remember that enormous sense of wellbeing the dwarves all felt when they marked out the grudges. That's the other part of it. Writing down a grudge is a promise of sorts that what troubles you will be fixed and made right maybe not today but someday.
This is great! The scene with the Dammaz Kron post Karak Ungor seemed almost... metaphysical, I didn't know if it was just culture or if it went soul-deep
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What issues were they?
I mean, it can't be both? This is a universe where sufficient outrage at desecration of their honored tombs in Karak-Eight-Peaks in the one Gotrek and Felix novel made dwarf ghosts come into being and do things. Where they do things with inhuman precision and focus and can and will focus on getting a single rune or engineering project is just right by their inhumanly high standards for centuries at a time. A human would need to be partially or very insane, or altered by magic, or outright have a non-standard genetic and mental makeup. A Grudge, a true major Grudge like that, it carries a lot of weight. It colors behavior and action and emotions.
The Gotrek and Felix book Orcslayer goes into a dwarf-on-dwarf grudges. Basically, grudge between Gotrek and Prince Hamnir of Karak Hirn. It comes up over a lot of the book. It's genuinely treated at certain points as exhausting to deal with, annoying, frustrating, even by the dwarfs themselves! But they can't just...not have the Grudge be a thing. An unconventional solution is offered by Felix, and in the end, an agreement is made that the Grudge is essentially settled as a result, even though it is suggested that if not for Felix' sheer boldness and audacity, and being a Rememberer to a Slayer, then the Grudge would have simply shifted to blaming him and wrapping him up in the resolution of the Grudge in quite a bad way.
Oh, you know. Lots of anger and lack of immediate cooperation during the End Times. Stuff like that.
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Take your time, no rush, and hope appointment goes well dude.
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Not torroar so I don't know exactly what sources he uses, but the Reckoners are detailed in the book Grudgelore.
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