Warhammer Fantasy: A Dynasty of Dynamic Alcoholism

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EVA-Saiyajin said:
Don't let our survival so far go to your heads guys.
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I'm not reading it that way. Like we could easily die but this would settle everything from now on.

So it's no different then risking death in battle to end a threat. Whether we live or die this will be over.

And dynasty is the key word. I'm not casually voting to get Freddy killed but the show will go out regardless.
 
Correct me if I'm wrong, but only the Quaffing might kill us and we have to do that anyway because of that fact. Any extras that we choose to do won't run the risk of killing as far as I can tell so we don't need to worry about an increased chance of dying because that chance is the same for all of the options.
 
McLuvin said:
We got dwarven tech yes. But there was no law against it being given, no law against someone who is not incompetent and not an enemy getting it. Hell, when we asked them wether Ostland was incompetent or an enemy even the staunchest Traditionalists shut the fuck up.

The main issue here is that we are humans. And we are not as good as dwarves in their eyes, even the announcer called us 'Umgi of Ostland'. Instead of the more respectful Manling, and didn't use any of our titles, which even the mere basic engineers had ascribed to them, despite all the things we've done for the Dwarven race.

People have lept to the defence of certain Dwarves. And I understand that, accept it and appreciate it, there are loads of good, badarse and nice Dwarves. But my issue is with Dwarven society, because this trial was a racist, politicised farce after we established it wasn't theft and it wasn't a breaking of oaths. Yet it still happened, our allies, amongst which is the High King, haven't been allowed to intervene and despite everything we've done for the Dwarven people we're being forced to do a potentially physically crippling punishment because of bigotry and politics.

Dwarven society is sick. It has driven the Dwarven species to near extinction so easily for a reason. It's caused bundles of stupidity that makes even some of the worst moments of the Empire seem competent. I am raging against the society. Not the individuals that make up parts of that society.
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Thing is, the stubbornness, the OTT attitude to grudges, all these things, they are written into their souls. Unless you've got an Old One in cold storage, you're not going to change anything with regard to them. The rest of their issues stem from those two, as well as their exceptionally long lives and the aftershocks of the literal apocalypse dropped on their heads by Mazdamundi forgetting to carry the seven while trying to squelch the skaven.

They are as they are. They were literally designed to be hard to change, which had been reinforced by them currently living through the Dwarven equivalent of the Fallout universe on a deathworld where if anything goes wrong, just once, there's a not insignificant chance that all of their children get eaten by skaven/goblins/ungors.

They may be stubborn arseholes, but they also have a species-wide case of PTSD. Their pride, the shadow of their ancestors looming over them, that's what keeps them going, as culturally toxic as it may be.

If we're only allies with the dwarves when they're Tolkien novel escapees and not the enclaves of obsessive pre-lapsarian survivalists to our alliance of half-mad wasteland warlords, then they'd be well within their rights to call us umgi.
 
Wind-Up Citrus said:
Were the corrupt engineers brought up?
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No, which is a little odd, because Ostland has dwarf engineers who should have known of the corruption, but we rolled well and this is supposed to be about a dwarf having a Grudge with Valma 'nobly' building a case against the umgi who dared to build with dwarf engineering secrets. Imagine the dwarf work screwed up by the works of shoddy craftsmen!!
 
Oshha said:
Correct me if I'm wrong, but only the Quaffing might kill us and we have to do that anyway because of that fact. Any extras that we choose to do won't run the risk of killing as far as I can tell so we don't need to worry about an increased chance of dying because that chance is the same for all of the options.
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Basically that's how I read it too. We have to risk death anyway, the other three are just extremely embarrassing, uncomfortable and shameful.
 
EVA-Saiyajin said:
Don't let our survival so far go to your heads guys.
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Nothing besides the Quaffing is considered lethal for humans and we are doing the Quaffing either way.

Like mentioned we have the Light of Summer to deal with the worst injuries and magical healing back home. Freddy has faced worst pain so is unlikely to overly suffer from this.

If we go all out now this won't become an issue in future, kinda like how we surrendered ourselves to church cause we wanted to get the knowing rumors of being tainted out of the way.
 
X] All Four: A deed unheard of, never performed, and for good reason. One has always been enough Two is horrible. Three excessive. But the Guildmaster demanded four as an answer, instead of blood or money. Four absolute humiliations and punishments, levied against your engineers. Anna and Helga would not survive the Quaffing. But you can. Performing them all, and absolutely answering the Grudge levied against your people, would likely permanently shut down those who desired any kind of punishment. It might also be exceedingly painful. But you are no stranger to pain. None of this will beat what Jung did when he was alive and still a priest of Sigmar.
- [X] Addition: Speak throughout the trials only in Khazalid.
 
[X] Quaffing And Cogging: You are strong enough to quaff and carry, one after the other. It would technically give you the ability to show your strength to the people, as well as explore the workshops. And you won't be nearly as tired and focused on cleaning. They said not to steal dwarf secrets, this is true. And you won't be. You'll merely be perusing. And thinking. Anna created cyclers after looking at some gears, for goodness sake, which have nothing to do at all with the Great Lift.


We can take the two harmful punishments, sure. But all four rituals one after the other? We'd have no chance of healing and may lose our sense of taste permanently.

Yes, Blackbearding and Trouser Legs will probably not hurt us, but they delay healing which we'll direly need after something that would kill most humans. Split 2/2, we get a chance to rest and not stress our body so it may recuperate.

As to those who say Freddy wouldn't have his daughter do anything - that's basically invalidating her choice to accept the punishment for herself. It's an insult to her independence. She is a grown woman, not a child.
 
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[X] All Four: A deed unheard of, never performed, and for good reason. One has always been enough Two is horrible. Three excessive. But the Guildmaster demanded four as an answer, instead of blood or money. Four absolute humiliations and punishments, levied against your engineers. Anna and Helga would not survive the Quaffing. But you can. Performing them all, and absolutely answering the Grudge levied against your people, would likely permanently shut down those who desired any kind of punishment. It might also be exceedingly painful. But you are no stranger to pain. None of this will beat what Jung did when he was alive and still a priest of Sigmar.
- [X] Addition: Speak throughout the trials only in Khazalid.
 
I don't think the add on is really needed. Frederich has basically been speaking Kazalid to the dwarves the entire time we've been here without thinking about it.

The only reason he even seems to notice what he's doing is because the dwarves keep pausing and muttering when he does it.

As for the punishments.
These punishments, as clearly stated in story post, are meant to be terrible (but not lethal) to dwarves.

The quaffing, isn't a punishment for the dwarves because it's dangerous. They can take it.
It's terrible because it takes away enjoyment of something dwarves value. (food and much more importantly Alcohol).

Black Bearding? Absolutely horrendous for dwarves. It's a step below the act that shattered their relationship with the elves.
It's a violation of something they see as a vital part of their person.
We saw a portion of the significance in their Weddings in Karak Ungor.

The other punishments?
It's the same thing. Terrible humiliation. Horrible shame. Damage of key portions of dwarven identity.

And yet. For a human, the weight of these punishments isn't even remotely the same.

A human who's had to wash out grease with their hair, can just shave it off, and none of us will care.
A dwarf would sooner be flayed alive.

A human enduring the humiliation, won't even be all that affected. Who cares if the dwarves saw us humiliated?
It's obvious that most of them will see the level of humiliation, and look down on our accusers for their over-reach, not us.
We don't have the soul-deep sense of pride that would drive a dwarf subjected to this to seek death.

The only thing that's really a concern for a human, is the quaffing, and yet, the traditionalist of traditionalists is compromising on it.
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He's letting Fred, who everyone full on knows can handle it, and has a magical elvin healing artifact, take the punishment instead.
I'm pretty delighted that he's allowing this route of solution to go through at all.
That he's actively willing to reasonably shift things to accommodate the differences between dwarves and humans is incredible.

The quaffing is harsher on humans than on dwarves, but the other punishments are far harsher on dwarves then they are on humans.

Yes, dwaven society is stubborn to the point of self-destruction.

But that stubbornness has tangible value in a world where there are active supernatural forces.

Dwarves are Not IRL humans.
When a drawf is racist, it is not the same as a human being racist toward other humans.
Dwarves really are, by birth, inherently different from humans, down to the soul.

The flexibility of humanity has it's benefits, but the fact is, we could be lying here.
Malakith was a death-bed friend of the White Dwarf, and he made a lie of his oath.
Malakith fought beside the dwarves too, but his people still turned on the dwarves.
Why should they assume a human friend's word is inviolable, when doing so for their closest friends has failed so catastrophically in the past?

They are still giving Fred respect for what he's done, and who he is, but that doesn't change the fact that non-dwarves can and will lie under oath.

Dwarves WILL NOT.

Over all, I think this has gone incredibly well.
We've been able to reduce our purposeful attempts to get closer to dwarven engineering secrets, to a series of punishments that are absolutely horrendous for dwarves, but for humans, are basically boot-camp breaking techniques.

I won't saw we lucked out, because we worked for this, but I have absolutely no shame is considering this a win.

[X] All Four: A deed unheard of, never performed, and for good reason. One has always been enough Two is horrible. Three excessive. But the Guildmaster demanded four as an answer, instead of blood or money. Four absolute humiliations and punishments, levied against your engineers. Anna and Helga would not survive the Quaffing. But you can. Performing them all, and absolutely answering the Grudge levied against your people, would likely permanently shut down those who desired any kind of punishment. It might also be exceedingly painful. But you are no stranger to pain. None of this will beat what Jung did when he was alive and still a priest of Sigmar.
 
[X] All Four: A deed unheard of, never performed, and for good reason. One has always been enough Two is horrible. Three excessive. But the Guildmaster demanded four as an answer, instead of blood or money. Four absolute humiliations and punishments, levied against your engineers. Anna and Helga would not survive the Quaffing. But you can. Performing them all, and absolutely answering the Grudge levied against your people, would likely permanently shut down those who desired any kind of punishment. It might also be exceedingly painful. But you are no stranger to pain. None of this will beat what Jung did when he was alive and still a priest of Sigmar.

Its in the spirit of the charecter.​
 
Garlak said:
... To be honest, I found the Reckoners to be very... well, earnest throughout this whole update. They were, well... genuine. Sincere, reasonable, fair. Both in how they handled our trial, and also all the ones that came before; throughout all of those, they showed themselves as trying to resolve things, to try and prevent deaths and grudge-spirals.

Reading about them, you really got a sense -- a feel -- of how these are people who try to make things right. Wise and discerning and compassionate (in that what they aim for is for the well-being of Dwarfkind) -- and yet also strict and sometimes downright frightening in sentencing.

And keep something in mind, about the Reckoners; these guys are old. These are very old dwarfs. And they listened to us and gave us a fair shot. They didn't just immediately dismiss our points or rule against us or what-have-you.

Think about how disapproving-sounding, stone-faced, and traditional some of the really-damn-old Dwarfs have been. Then compare that to how we've seen High King Grudgebearer and these Reckoners judge and proclaim.

And, in fact, you know what? When this sort of thing happens IRL? In IRL courts? When a member of a minority or outgroup or a foreigner is facing a jury who are all of the same class as the one accusing the outsider? i.e. The plaintiff has a home-field advantage, with the jurors being from his social class or race? Things usually go a lot worse for the defendant than this! ((One of the outcomes of using juries, actually. Judges can be more objective than jurors -- or, well, they can have more perspective than jurors. Because it's not like you can't have problematic or biased judges too.))

So things are actually looking damn well for us, compared to how even IRL trials that are "the defendant is a total outsider or is a minority and has no peers or social support" in how they go down!

It's possible -- likely, even, from how surprised the Reckoners sounded when they got to our case -- that there hasn't even been any precedent for this sort of thing happening before. i.e. Humans being brought in to a major Dwarf court-room and settling and debating things as defendant and plaintiff, like they were two Dwarf groups settling a grudge.

So we might actually be setting precedent, in how things go here. Not just with our admission to the Engineering Guild, but to the justice system itself. And I'm actually curious as to how that will be taken, or what might come from that.


And for those people who are blaming the entire race of Dwarfs for the actions of a few Engineers pissed off at us? Or those proclaiming that the Dwarfs are horrible friends, or that they're not worth it, or that they bring only ill? Shame on you. Shame on you. Have some perspective, please. Not just for the fact that this is an incredibly traditional society that is still giving us a shot -- but also the fact that only a handful of Dwarfs started this; not all Dwarfs are to blame for this! And we have our outright supporters here, too. ((And there's even Sven, who went against custom and is conspiring with Anna to get the alcohol engine built. So that's an incredibly radical thing a Dwarf is doing, and giving to humanity, right there.))

Yeah, Dwarfs are condescending and patronizing in Warhammer. Are stubborn and don't let things go. They are also one of the staunchest allies the Empire has ever had, for two thousand plus years. They go incredibly far to settle a Grudge... but they also go incredibly far to settle a debt or an oath of friendship, too. Which they've done for the past two thousand and change years.

If you're willing to write-off Dwarfs for the actions of the ones who called this Grudge on us, then you should be equally willing to write-off humanity for the actions of people in the Empire that we butted heads with, no? You should be able to point to stupid grudges or arguments or blood feuds and proclaim us beyond hope because of that. Not just the individual groups or parties; but to lay judgment on all the race for the actions of a few. No? Because that would be unreasonable? Well then.


Let's keep some perspective, when considering all this here.
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The War of the Beard started over a lesser insult than this. Here's some perspective for you: Frederic Hohenzollern, Elector Grand Count of Ostland, Hero of the Empire( Second Greatest alive), Touched by Sigmar Himself, was just tared, feathered, and humiliated trice over, all over some dwarven culture thing. The beard of a dwarven prince started the war of the beard. Just wait and see what torturing Frederic does to Empire-Dwarven relations among the common folk. Mobs aren't reasonable or nuanced. And in their homes, the cities of the Empire, the dwarves are the very small minority being judged on rumor and hearsay. I wouldn't be surprised if multiple dwarves, Engeneers or not, are lynched over this.

This is a no win situation. Even if Fred passes all the trials, his people will never forgive this. And with so many Engineers in attendance, the story will leak. Kiss your ass goodbye to functioning dwarf-commoner relations in the Northern Trident.
 
[X] Quaffing And Cogging: You are strong enough to quaff and carry, one after the other. It would technically give you the ability to show your strength to the people, as well as explore the workshops. And you won't be nearly as tired and focused on cleaning. They said not to steal dwarf secrets, this is true. And you won't be. You'll merely be perusing. And thinking. Anna created cyclers after looking at some gears, for goodness sake, which have nothing to do at all with the Great Lift.

Weird as it might sound, I want to take this one BECAUSE Freddy's a novice engineer. I don't want all four on one man. Spread amongst the engineers is okayish, and I don't want to just do all four Dawi-style- Fredrick keeps speaking in Khazalid because he's got Dwarf-souls stuck to his own human soul, and all four might rip that away but...It might get them to rally and turn on this hard enough for Fredrick to get tipped over the edge and for Grude-Spiraling to begin.
 
DocMatoi said:
@torroar is the no taste thing about quaffing permanent?
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For a dwarf it usually isn't.

lancelot said:
@torroar considering the utter shit we've been drinking for the Dawi death priests, just how much of a chance of failure will we have if we take all four?
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I mean, it really isn't a case of failure % or anything like that. The Light of Summer hasn't been used all day. It automatically activates upon taking a truly, truly grievous wound/pain/issue.

And, honestly, Gazul's thing had a very, very small chance of actually hurting, the rolls there were simply about how much divine filth Frederick was able to take in. The possible results were tiered. Not, like, exploding at the end or anything - that's a Chaos thing, really - but rather simply rejecting it wholly if he'd rolled low enough, and then hurting him if he, like, critically failed. Wouldn't have killed him directly, no, but it would have had bad repercussions for later on. You know, what with, well, dying being just dying instead of dragged back to life by the Lord of the Underearth temporarily if not healed.

DocMatoi said:
@torroar are any of the reckoners named Judy by any chance? :p
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You'll note that I never named them, and that people only said 'Reckoner' when talking to them. To the point that I was starting to get a little tired of saying 'quiet one'/'smoking one'/gavel-wielder' because of the effort they go to look the same. When they put on the hoods, they're anonymous. Their clan is, for this moment, the Grudges. No identification in their ornamentation. Sure, their voices might be recognized by a few, but no sane dwarf would break tradition by trying to call them by their given names.

And, well, all three were males. Is it possible that there is an elderly dwarf woman who is occasionally called upon to be as a Reckoner? Yes. But to me the dwarfs don't really have full on courts of law, they have courts of peers, or have the king make the decision, or a council, etc. Not, like, a full on set of plaintiffs/defendants/juries/judges. Just people like the Reckoners/Kings who set it down, people like Dammin who might poll the audience before he makes his decision. That sort of thing.

Heck, I'll be honest, I sort of basically homebrewed everything I had Fenna say about the Reckoners, because I could find no real examples of them with google outside of Total War, and a small bit from an excerpt from some End Times stuff. And that was not...what really worked for the situation, based on things I'd already said or mentioned in thread. Hence, the creation of the Reckoners of Grudges, who might be of a clan or a guild, dealing with greater matters that cannot be solved individually, or that a Guildmaster or Clan Leader cannot, well, Reckon, on his own. Then the kind of grubby one from the End Time bit in K8P.

So. Uh. No.
 
primemountain said:
This is a no win situation. Even if Fred passes all the trials, his people will never forgive this. And with so many Engineers in attendance, the story will leak. Kiss your ass goodbye to functioning dwarf-commoner relations in the Northern Trident.
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I somehow doubt that.

Freddy isn't that popular outside of Ostland (and maybe the Trident as a whole) and I can't see us not coming down on people who try to pogrom dwarfs.
 
agumentic said:
Carrying a bunch of cogs naked and cleaning some machines with our beard doesn't sound very harmful to me.
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  • I'm voting to have Frederick do the cogging.
  • It's not about harm from the punishments (and we have no idea what Trouser Legs is) but dragging our ruined digestive tract through two aditional rituals without a chance for healing in between.
 
torroar said:
"Very well then. Let them be taken from here so that they can be prepared for the rituals in question. For the records, Helga and Anna, engineers of Ostland, students of Valma, take upon themselves the burden of their master's misapplication of oaths through multiple rituals of expulsion. Frederick von Hohenzollern, you have been declared to the Quaffing ritual. Will you perform others?"

Choose One:
Note: Had to stop somewhere. Hands got tired. Too long since an update. Sorry. If issues, will fix later.
Second Note: Voting Moratorium For 3 Hours
[] Just Quaffing: Your daughter, and Helga, are ready and willing to do what must be done. You have only the Quaffing ritual to do, and were not a direct student of Valma. However, you can do this one, and save your daughter and Helga from having to perform it. A small deed, in comparison, perhaps, but apparently Fenna was worried it might kill the other two. Besides, they've never seen a human do it. Maybe that alone will get them to back off.
[] Quaffing And Blackbearding: You are the only one with a beard, after all, though it might be painful to do. Dwarfs take beardcare extremely seriously, perhaps showing you are willing to do this will get any others to back off. Hopefully. If they are not simply regarding you as humiliating yourself. You'd largely just be cleaning, in truth, not able to look around much. Or they'll just think you're crazy. Well, some of them do that anyway.
[] Quaffing And Cogging: You are strong enough to quaff and carry, one after the other. It would technically give you the ability to show your strength to the people, as well as explore the workshops. And you won't be nearly as tired and focused on cleaning. They said not to steal dwarf secrets, this is true. And you won't be. You'll merely be perusing. And thinking. Anna created cyclers after looking at some gears, for goodness sake, which have nothing to do at all with the Great Lift.
[] All Four: A deed unheard of, never performed, and for good reason. One has always been enough Two is horrible. Three excessive. But the Guildmaster demanded four as an answer, instead of blood or money. Four absolute humiliations and punishments, levied against your engineers. Anna and Helga would not survive the Quaffing. But you can. Performing them all, and absolutely answering the Grudge levied against your people, would likely permanently shut down those who desired any kind of punishment. It might also be exceedingly painful. But you are no stranger to pain. None of this will beat what Jung did when he was alive and still a priest of Sigmar.
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Ah HA! I'm right. Regardless of what Freddy does. Anna and Helga will still do everything except Quaffing. This is the option for Freddy to choose to take more (one has poetential to exploit dwarf secrets), or all punishments.

Or maybe I missed something saying Freddy would replace Anna and Helga in the punishments?
 
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torroar said:
And, honestly, Gazul's thing had a very, very small chance of actually hurting, the rolls there were simply about how much divine filth Frederick was able to take in. The possible results were tiered. Not, like, exploding at the end or anything - that's a Chaos thing, really - but rather simply rejecting it wholly if he'd rolled low enough, and then hurting him if he, like, critically failed. Wouldn't have killed him directly, no, but it would have had bad repercussions for later on. You know, what with, well, dying being just dying instead of dragged back to life by the Lord of the Underearth temporarily if not healed.
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No not the god stuff I'm talking about the shit drinks the Dawi Death Priests have been feeding Fred to see if they can get something that tastes like what the god gave Fred.

I'm assuming that compared to that shit whatever they have us drink here will be easy?
 
So am I the only one who is thinking that the slayers and the high king are gonna be pissed at these guys? Perhaps even grudge level pissed at the individual engineers who started this sham?
 
primemountain said:
The War of the Beard started over a lesser insult than this
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No, it didn't. Even discounting caravans that got destroyed by, as dwarves thought, High Elves, cutting a beard of a dwarf is the worst insult imaginable, and it was done to an ambassador, and it was after dwarves demanded recompensation once already. Elves might've as well send back dwarven heads. A great difference from Frederick willingly accepting a bunch of bad things happening to him, none especially humiliating for a human culture. Not too different to the whole Jung debacle, and we don't see churches burning over it.

Plus, you know, humans are not dwarves and don't carry grudges like dwarves do.
 
torroar said:
The Light of Summer hasn't been used all day.
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Light of Summer: "Ahhhh, it's nice having a break from all this tough work rebuilding this stupid hum-"

LoS: "WHAT IS HE PUTTING IN HIS BODY OH ISHA PRESERVE ME THIS STUFF TASTES WORSE THEN THE USUAL CRAP THE DWARVES MAKE WHY HOST WHY"

Nachtigall said:
  • It's not about harm from the punishments (and we have no idea what Trouser Legs is) but dragging our ruined digestive tract through two aditional rituals without a chance for healing in between.
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Eh, the liver ain't failed us yet. I mean, even after all we've done. And this is just minor.
 
[X] All Four: A deed unheard of, never performed, and for good reason. One has always been enough Two is horrible. Three excessive. But the Guildmaster demanded four as an answer, instead of blood or money. Four absolute humiliations and punishments, levied against your engineers. Anna and Helga would not survive the Quaffing. But you can. Performing them all, and absolutely answering the Grudge levied against your people, would likely permanently shut down those who desired any kind of punishment. It might also be exceedingly painful. But you are no stranger to pain. None of this will beat what Jung did when he was alive and still a priest of Sigmar.

Natasha doesn't get to be the only cast-iron-stubborn person in our relationship. And since this is sparing Anna suffering, she'll be conflicted at worst.
 
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