Warhammer Fantasy: A Dynasty of Dynamic Alcoholism

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You're doing fantastically as a quest writer and purveyor of secrets into Druuchi and Black Ark society Torroar. Everyone with decency has enjoyed every moment of it.
 
Is there any thought of creating a breeding ground for war beasts for the empire? We have the resources and alliances to make this possible, and it would be nice to have air cavalry on hippogriffs, pegasi, griffons, or earthen demi-griffons that haven't appeared yet. I know it would still be difficult, but if it worked, it would provide great benefits and compensate for some of the empire's shortcomings.
 
Orzelbialy said:
Is there any thought of creating a breeding ground for war beasts for the empire? We have the resources and alliances to make this possible, and it would be nice to have air cavalry on hippogriffs, pegasi, griffons, or earthen demi-griffons that haven't appeared yet. I know it would still be difficult, but if it worked, it would provide great benefits and compensate for some of the empire's shortcomings.
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No. The problem is they're expensive. This has come up before.
 
Orzelbialy said:
Is there any thought of creating a breeding ground for war beasts for the empire? We have the resources and alliances to make this possible, and it would be nice to have air cavalry on hippogriffs, pegasi, griffons, or earthen demi-griffons that haven't appeared yet. I know it would still be difficult, but if it worked, it would provide great benefits and compensate for some of the empire's shortcomings.
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So, part of the issue is that overall, the canonically made Imperial Zoo was accomplished for on reason, and one reason only.

Vanity.

Literally, that's it. The only reason that it could come into being is because Emperor Dieter IV, one of the most cowardly, greedy, vainglorious asinine spineless frivolous wretch to ever be elected Emperor, was the one who had it built. He is the man who literally gave up all of Marienburg and the Westerland province for a sufficient bribe of gold from the merchants there. He took money meant for military defense and organization and used it to build edifices towards his own grandiose imagined figure, demolishing half of Nuln to beautify it according to his standards, and making the Palace of Gold. He was hopelessly corrupt, hopelessly ineffective, and hopelessly incompetent - to the point that he was outright deposed by the Electoral Counts for his rule after he allowed WAAAAAGH!! Grom to sack and conquer Nuln.

His only, only useful legacy that is appreciated in the future is the Imperial Zoo, which in turn was only brought about because of his absolute abuse of the Imperial Treasury from any number of more important infrastructural or defensive projects meant to better or even just maintain the Empire as a whole, and went through the effort of setting its systems up with that some ludicrous expenditure such that it could continue to exist later on without him.

Smaller menageries are a thing amongst the particularly wealthy, but the full on Imperial Zoo requires what some might consider a true absolute fuck ton of money.
 
Orzelbialy said:
they will always be expensive if nothing is done after that, it would be a long-term issue, the real results would be seen by the next generation and honestly we spent a huge amount of money on gray wizards, don't tell me that purchasing a few breeding pairs would be that expensive
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I will tell you that, yes it would.

I want massed regiments of Demigryph cavalry and officers riding Griffons, but it's not feasible.
 
torroar said:
So, part of the issue is that overall, the canonically made Imperial Zoo was accomplished for on reason, and one reason only.

Vanity.

Literally, that's it. The only reason that it could come into being is because Emperor Dieter IV, one of the most cowardly, greedy, vainglorious asinine spineless frivolous wretch to ever be elected Emperor, was the one who had it built. He is the man who literally gave up all of Marienburg and the Westerland province for a sufficient bribe of gold from the merchants there. He took money meant for military defense and organization and used it to build edifices towards his own grandiose imagined figure, demolishing half of Nuln to beautify it according to his standards, and making the Palace of Gold. He was hopelessly corrupt, hopelessly ineffective, and hopelessly incompetent - to the point that he was outright deposed by the Electoral Counts for his rule after he allowed WAAAAAGH!! Grom to sack and conquer Nuln.

His only, only useful legacy that is appreciated in the future is the Imperial Zoo, which in turn was only brought about because of his absolute abuse of the Imperial Treasury from any number of more important infrastructural or defensive projects meant to better or even just maintain the Empire as a whole, and went through the effort of setting its systems up with that some ludicrous expenditure such that it could continue to exist later on without him.

Smaller menageries are a thing amongst the particularly wealthy, but the full on Imperial Zoo requires what some might consider a true absolute fuck ton of money.
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I understand but I'm talking about a small beginning developed over generations and not a zoo but rather on the scale of animals such as war horses. Specifically, half-games and pegasi which are not so rare and, as I emphasize, small beginnings, 2-3 breeding pairs and slowly increased, the prices will start to drop because the rarity will start to drop, and as for food, well, there are options, although you would have to explain whether they would be possible
 
Orzelbialy said:
I understand but I'm talking about a small beginning developed over generations and not a zoo but rather on the scale of animals such as war horses. Specifically, half-games and pegasi which are not so rare and, as I emphasize, small beginnings, 2-3 breeding pairs and slowly increased, the prices will start to drop because the rarity will start to drop, and as for food, well, there are options, although you would have to explain whether they would be possible
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It would take a bit of searching but you will find ample explanation Searching for Demigryphs and/or Griffons under Torroar posts why this isn't feasible.
 
I suppose we could do rinhoxes, it would count for some but they aren't really exclusively warbeasts.

In the end the empire is way more a tech faction with a bit of magic and faith, we arent suited to have a lot of magical animals and make free use of them like the elves are.
 
Orzelbialy said:
they will always be expensive if nothing is done after that, it would be a long-term issue, the real results would be seen by the next generation and honestly we spent a huge amount of money on gray wizards, don't tell me that purchasing a few breeding pairs would be that expensive
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By 'expensive' that means the QM came by and gave a estimate of how much one griffon would cost. That one expensive price would then need to be multiplied by oh 250 griffons or 500 griffons, on cost of living for a griffon.

As for some of the other 'cheaper' flying beasts, such as pegasi, or hippogriffs. That had to do with location, and Ostland not being a suitable habitat for them. Buying gromril custom rune engraved armor would be cheaper!

To catch up everyone up to speed on Griffons. 3,940, per griffon. 250 x 3940= 985 000 gold coins upkeep per year, for 250 griffons. The Vapor Tanks are cheaper in upkeep.
torroar said:
Deathclaw was rather explicitly given, as an egg, to Karl Franz, from the Wood Elves. Who in turn retrieved it from one of the highest peaks in the Grey Mountains. Supposedly. That's what is written, anyhow.

It is noted in the army books / wiki entries that generally, purposefully bred Imperial Gryphons are very, very few, generally only ever raised as prized mounts of the Elector Counts - but are notably stronger and larger than their wild counterparts. It is purported to be because of selective breeding, but I think it also has plenty to do with the far more regular feeding and care that they can receive as such prized beasts. In Karl Franz's time, Elector Count Theodoric Gausser of Nordland had one, Elector Count Wolfram Hertwig had one, Gregor Martak the Patriarch of the Amber Brotherhood had one, and so we can assume that at least a few of the other Elector Counts had a gryphon to call their own. Storm of Magic declares that 'many Elector Counts' claim to possess one in their personal menageries. But that could entirely be because of the current 'canon' era, and may not have been true throughout the entire history of the Empire, yeah? Possibly because Karl Franz hatched his in like, 2503 IC? That's a good little chunk of time from 2503 to 2522 for other Elector Counts to do the same, but eh, not quite relevant at the moment.

And generally, when adventurers steal from the nests in the mountains, it's noted that they don't get eggs, but outright chicks that had already been born - selecting the 'strongest, cleverest, and most ferocious for their lords'.

As it is, the way I'm envisioning things, gryphons are great, prestigious, sacred animals in the Empire. They are extremely expensive to care for, in terms of fresh meat per day once fully grown if nothing else. And I would argue that the economies of the Empire's various provinces were not super great after the Era of Three Emperors and the Great War Against Chaos, yeah? So probably not too many of those running around in general. At the moment, Frederick has two, and the Emperor has two. And that's it. Is it likely that the number of gryphon's under Imperial control might increase on from this point? Potentially. Who, when, where? I'm not telling you that, obviously. It'll happen if/when it happens.
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torroar said:
Let's put it another way.

Oskana, as a fully grown gryphon (larger than wild gryphons due to being raised from captivity with regular feedings) is about, hmm, let's use the Total War concept art as shorthand on size descriptors:



So, let's say that she can devour an entire cow a day, or more. Rated as amongst the most intelligent of all beasts, they do not generally kill indiscriminately, and are precise and and graceful in their hunting. In the wild, they can stalk prey for days at a time before swooping in. Oskana has never once required that. Oskana flies out daily, and hunts and fights relentlessly, far in excess than wild gryphons are required to do as they watch over their territories, as often defending that means from other mega fauna who might threaten them, not necessarily every single goblin tribe or beastmen warherd that trundles through far, far below. So her caloric needs are considerable compared to wild gryphons, as well as with her increased bulk.

I've spoken as to how the numbers are fudged a bit when it comes to stuff like population and certain costs from sourcebooks, such as how even capitals can barely have a few thousand people in them = not how I'm running things. But let's look at the Livestock Costs in Sigmar's Heirs regardless.

A single cow is about 10 GC, not allowing for any bartering or gifts, while a nice drafthorse is around 40 GC, at least according to Sigmar's Heirs. Which, on some things, I'm willing to agree to.

There are 394 days in the Imperial Calendar.

If Oskana requires, at minimum, a fully grown cow (preferably alive and screaming as is the gryphon preference) every single day, that means that over the course of a single year she requires 394x10 = 3,940 GC worth of expenses in FOOD ALONE. And that presupposes that one never rewards her with positive food reinforcement (semi-vital for training animals) or rewards her for especially good deeds such as killing that minotaur that was about to break the flank, etc. So round it up to 4,000 GC a year for food costs. Then there's nesting stuff, straw, down, etc. shelter, medical care if required, saddles, and so on, based around Sigmar's Heirs cost lists. We can, however, reduce that with 'favorable' deals, such as the Elector Count purchasing from your farm giving you greater prestige in other deals, negotiations for supply lines, bulk purchases, etc. reducing things from such a staggering number. So more like 3,500, or even 2,000 in Food.

She swallows a non-small portion of your literal Farming Income yearly into her gullet, from cows, chickens, goats, etc. that are purchased for feeding her.

I haven't made it a straight numbered 'Gryphon Maintenance Costs' thing on the front page, I've just been straight deducting it from the Farming Income and small portions of the Infrastructure Maintenance. It's why Farming Income hasn't risen even further from various improvements even with things like Seeding Drills, because of the 'Oskana Tax' on such measures. Also, because massive increase in crops doesn't really necessarily feed her, as she is like 80% carnivore.

If you want, I can change this. Farming Income and Infrastructure Maintenance will change, but Gryphon Costs will be, as demonstrated, quite extensive. Heck, now that I write it out, seems silly I haven't yet. Hrmm.

Anyway, TLDR?

Gryphons are expensive. Few people have them for a reason beyond their ferocity and the difficulty in acquiring them.
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torroar said:
Of course, going by a general Middle Ages price list, a good cow could cost only 10 shillings, which is still quite a bit for a peasant, but significantly less for a wealthy noble.

And the core rule book has it such that peasants could possibly earn 9-15 GC yearly in wages, prior to taxation. But 1 GC = 20 SS (Silver Shillings) = 240 Brass Pennies (BP)

So going by that measure, a farmer with two cows could have 20 GC worth of property in animals, but only makes 9-15 GC yearly in wages, but also more because of the cows producing milk? Or are you deciding to follow pure IRL sources, or sticking solely with old Sigmar's Heirs and other infobooks that were most certainly not written to perfectly adhere to IRL currency and worth exchanges as applied in the periods that are mirrored into Warhammer Fantasy properly?

So 10 GC or 10 SS, depending on which sources you're deciding to pull from, IRL or IC, but with allowance for price differentials and the fact that in a great many aspects Sigmar's Heirs either shoots far below or far above certain numbers, or at least makes them more congruent not for a TT or proper CKII thing (didn't exist back then, obviously) but rather for an RPG. You don't want your players just buying massive swathes of cows, or maybe you do depending on how much gold they get? Who knows, really, supplements occasionally has a few hundred gold being the major stashes of villains and monster lairs but how much does that really buy you?

So it comes down, then, to numbers not purely calculated but affected by 'narrative sense', in that however much gold is or isn't spent has to make sense within the context of the story. One number given out has a Hochlander woman not even the Elector Count at one point spending 100,000~ GC on a single specific dye of paint for her teeth in a painting. Others have all the gold that Theodoric Gausser was going to use for territorial expansion into another province be turned into lead, thus meaning his troops and mercenaries quit due to no pay. How much wealth can/does Balthazar Gelt remove, and was required for such things? And if peasants generally only handle pennies, and nobles generally only handle crowns, what's the true wealth differential there if a noble comes and buys out a peasant's whole herd to feed/do other things?

And, yes, feeding can also be aided by hunting outside of town, but the city is large and Oskana isn't allowed to range that far without an attendant rider. She doesn't eat beastmen due to the stink of their meat (corruption) nor skaven, but definitely greenskins and their boars. She also drinks alcohol occasionally, say a bucket here or there, but of highly nutritious and high calorie ale.

So really, what I'm saying is, how dare you make me think about this so much, >.>

Given everything, I'd probably lower it to about 1,000 per turn in food costs, rather than 4,000, maybe?. I'm sure you could find someone willing to pay out a full ten gold crowns for a cow, but if peasants generally only ever use shillings when they exchange amongst themselves which is surely where quite a bit of inter-community trading of farm animals is done, then that means they either have cartoonishly large sacks of pennies or the cows don't cost that much. Though surely some nobles and burghers in certain heavily agrarian areas deal in gold crowns for especially prize heads of animals. In Averland there's even a quest seed in Sigmar's Heirs about a noble taking his estate's herd to market for sale, so, gold can definitely come into it. But not always, I don't think.

One of the issues, though, is still ensuring that they are still 'so expensive and time-consuming to have' that only some Elector Counts and the Emperor can have them, yeah? It's a line you have to balance on, either they are too expensive to have at all or they're not expensive enough and there's no reason that every noble doesn't try to have one.

Obviously, a gryphon wouldn't die if they didn't eat a cow daily, or a handful of goats, or so on, they're explicitly noted to hunt prey for days in the wild before striking, but it is something to think about.



Yeah, I don't want to grind down to exacting minutiae about how much filling the ink wells cost or purchasing new torches for the walls or polish for the suits of armor and so on, or smaller stuff about wardrobes and what not. If this was a southern province, where that sort of thing was more important, I would for the clothes at least, but not the other basic things.



Precisely.



Setting aside the above stuff, Magnus doesn't need to pay the Magic Colleges for their services. He's the only person in the Empire who can say that, given he is the reason the Magic Colleges are allowed to exist in the first place. Teclis may have created the curriculum and taught, but it was Magnus that effectively 'founded' the concept and ensured its existence, rather than all the magic people scattering to the winds after the Great War Against Chaos.
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torroar said:
As it is, to put this debate to rest (for now, I suppose) all the numbers being thrown around were not hard-coded into the data on the front page. It was speculation of general stuff, comparisons, costs, and so on, brought about as from public contemplation of a sort of 'why not just more gryphon's and such' sort of thing. I haven't decided how much, if any, farming income and infrastructure upkeep would be affected, only some vague ideas that it might be, whenever Oskana does die from one reason or another, with an eye on thinking about Octaine as well. It's why I led off with 'if Oskana requires a cow a day', like, speculative, yeah? If I was being concrete about it, I would have said something like 'Flat out, Oskana requires one X per day, or a number of X per day', yeah?

As for hippogryphs, they are ferocious and terrifying beasts, but they are trainable if taken very, very young by especially strong willed knights. It's noted in the last Bretonnian Armybook that the sheer challenge of taming and training one makes it so that attempting to do so is surprisingly common, or at least made them extremely sought after as steeds.

As for pegasi, Parravon has the majority of those throughout all of Bretonnia, given their closeness to their roosts in the Grey Mountains. Enough that they do, indeed, have a good number of flying mounted knights - at least compared to the rest of the world, yeah? And then there are the even more rare and astonishing Royal Pegasi, which only show up every now and then.

As for demigryphs, these are more common, I would say, than either hippogryphs or pegasi in the Empire. It's noted that Inner Circle Knights of multiple Knightly Orders make use of the beasts, and not just the Knights Griffon either. Smaller orders who ride them exclusively exist as well, but they are located in the more southern reaches of the Empire. They're known to certainly populate the Reikwald, and likely other portions of the Great Forest as well. Often, there are trials set to go and find one, and break it to your will. This often fails, and you die. Other times, rarely, they are found as chicks and raised as mounts from birth, but this is noted to be rare.

Also, when it comes to gryphon armor, too much weight means = no fly good. Deathclaw in canon only had a big fancy chestplate sort of thing, which is what Sigismund has. Well, and a fitted skullcap thing.
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Hrrrm.
The problem is that yeah, air Calvert would be quite nice. But it ain't worth the headache Marienburg becomes AND Nuln getting sacked. Oh, AND the Collages getting outlawed briefly which I can't help but imagine as a shot in the arm for the population of Necromancers and Choas Sorcerers in the Empire.

Frankly I suspect a BETTER way to go about such a thing might be through Oskana or that Hysh-flavored Griffin Magnus has and establishing that tradition and fortifying it then waiting on Dieter's one good thing. Especially when in theory if this quest went down the timeline far enough we could genuinely see to it that Dieter never takes power!
 
EVA-Saiyajin said:
It would take a bit of searching but you will find ample explanation Searching for Demigryphs and/or Griffons under Torroar posts why this isn't feasible.
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okay and sorry for bringing up something that was simply explained, in fantasy worlds you rarely see the use of war beasts by the forces of good on a massive scale and I love this type of units. Besides, I'm not that well-informed about the world of physical education, I'm more of a fan of w40k, so I don't know the details
 
Orzelbialy said:
okay and sorry for bringing up something that was simply explained, in fantasy worlds you rarely see the use of war beasts by the forces of good on a massive scale and I love this type of units. Besides, I'm not that well-informed about the world of physical education, I'm more of a fan of w40k, so I don't know the details
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It's okay. So, in Warhammer Fantasy...it's sort of different.

Some factions, like Bretonnia, have focused on animal husbandry for their history at the expense of many other potential advancements, but it does mean that they can throw some flights of pegasi knights and such more regularly than any other Old World human faction. Others, like the Elves, have had thousands upon thousands of years to build up the knowledge, infrastructure, and relationships with the magical beasts. The Empire has some magical beasts, like some of the Knightly Orders with magical mounts, but overall, they also have a lot of guns, cannons, and strange mechanical creations which are also quite effective in their own way.

It is considered exceptional even amongst the Elector Counts to have Gryphons, aka the most powerful nobility in the land. Some wizards can attract Pegasi with magic. The more prestigious knightly orders can afford a few demigryphs, with some of the wealthier ones able to field whole lances worth of them on occasion.

Unfortunately, even with the Imperial Zoo, canonically, the Empire never once ever came close to fielding 'massive' units of magical beasts. Bretonnia came far closer than them. And now Kislev, with their cavalry bears, perhaps in some smaller measure.
 
Marlin said:
By 'expensive' that means the QM came by and gave a estimate of how much one griffon would cost. That one expensive price would then need to be multiplied by oh 250 griffons or 500 griffons, on cost of living for a griffon.

As for some of the other 'cheaper' flying beasts, such as pegasi, or hippogriffs. That had to do with location, and Ostland not being a suitable habitat for them. Buying gromril custom rune engraved armor would be cheaper!

To catch up everyone up to speed on Griffons. 3,940, per griffon. 250 x 3940= 985 000 gold coins upkeep per year, for 250 griffons. The Vapor Tanks are cheaper in upkeep.
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Oh of course, logistics is the biggest nightmare of every general and leader who actually cares
 
Air superiority is amazing, but frankly the biggest difference for us right now is the scouting capability offered by flying units. Which, mind, we can access via our wing-suits, and sometimes Amber Wizards as shown leading up to the Battle of the Blood Fane.

We should focus on our strengths, namely engineering and industrialization. Rebuild our devastated artillery park, crank out some more Vapor Tanks, maybe even see if we can make them cheaper/build up our economy to support more.
 
That said, if people think there should be a greater rebalancing towards horse cavalry, we could probably do that. Arthur is setting up a horse breeding program in his lands that could eventually provide some discounts there.
 
Well, we can just stick with horses meant for pulling wagons and such.

But yea, other than that, better to just focus on drunk tech.
 
Orzelbialy said:
how about revolvers, gatling machine guns and primitive versions of sniper rifles for officer elimination and intrigue options? how is it feasible?
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Nuln school has already made pistoleers for mounted unit, made their own version of repeating crossbows, and are most likely to make sniper rifles, assuming Hochland doesn't do so as they did canonically.

Our research is the more crazy and wild kind, which is why we are making things like landmines, deathspinners, wingsuits, etc.
MrRobot said:
I suppose we could do rinhoxes, it would count for some but they aren't really exclusively warbeasts.
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GM has mentioned before it would be a logistical nightmare actually keeping them fed and controlled, so no go there.
Orzelbialy said:
okay and sorry for bringing up something that was simply explained, in fantasy worlds you rarely see the use of war beasts by the forces of good on a massive scale and I love this type of units. Besides, I'm not that well-informed about the world of physical education, I'm more of a fan of w40k, so I don't know the details
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I'm just happy having monstrous heavy infantry in form of our ogres, which is literally designed to be our answer to monstrous units.
 
Massgamer said:
GM has mentioned before it would be a logistical nightmare actually keeping them fed and contr
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Actually, the QM has stated that rhinoxen are potentially useable as livestock.
torroar said:
Rhinoxes are also potentially usable, for certain things, if they can be found and properly corralled in the Middle Mountains. Stonehorns, being mountain eaters, are still right out excepting for potentially one or two as a curiosity.
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Orzelbialy said:
how about revolvers, gatling machine guns and primitive versions of sniper rifles for officer elimination and intrigue options? how is it feasible?
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That's not currently possible for Ostland. Most likely it is hidden behind the "Imperial Organs, Big" action

torroar said:
Imperial Organs, Big: The organ cannon used by the dwarfs was certainly very interesting, though unfortunately the somewhat distasteful business regarding Valma and her revealing apparently illegal secrets at your pressuring has resulted in the majority of the dwarf Engineering Guild to not much liking Anna. As such, at Karak Ungor she was not allowed to examine any of the more exotic and new dwarfen machinery that they had brought to bear. Still, the initial concept was intriguing and the engineers of Ostland are relatively sure that they can manage something similar only…bigger. Instead of four smaller dwarf cannons put together into a single device, they wish to try something with four imperial great cannons, and all that may or may not imply. Still, the better to not annoy the dwarfs any further they are happy to make it not be so blatant a copy. So instead of four they're going to stick three together. In a sort of…tri-barrel design. One on top of two. Testing and creating such a thing would of course take time. Hopefully this would just be a good amount of firepower. Cost: 2000. Time: 4 Years. Reward: The Ostlander Grand Volley Cannon, effectively 3 Imperial Great Cannons worked together, rotating to fire faster. Greater concentrated and more rapid firepower. Chance of Success: 65%
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As you can see this is functionally trying to create a way to stick three cannon barrels together, the possibilities should be obvious, such as trying to create a way to reload the thing efficiently. Attempting to get it fused together. It just hasn't been researched yet. Then more time to build the new designs, then more time for other obstacles.

And the rebuilding of the empire is a thing to care about, as selling the new guns and cannons to the allies that may not be able to afford it, or need the money for other things...

I'm still dreaming of building a Soup Tank in research.

Hopefully the vaporcyclers will be taken sooner than later. That's beneficial to logistics.
 
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Our own titan cannon concept also been proven so far in Salkaten battle.

Not too sure on our greatship concept, but that's more due to the Druichii bringing something we quite literally cannot do much against it.
 
Briefvoice said:
Arthur is setting up a horse breeding program in his lands that could eventually provide some discounts there.
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Can we negotiate with Ulthuan for some Asur horses?

I know they really care for them and absolutely don't gift them, unless for something truly exceptional.

And if destroying a really large groups of Druchii and capture of Black Ark doesn't count as exceptional, I don't know what does.
 
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