But guns are expensive, training men to use and maintain them is expensive, and would also have our swordsmen fumbling with their equipment while their being charged.
Guns are expensive but we're the ones building enough guns to start handing them out to our militia
Training men to use guns is actually pretty darn easy. Historically it was one of the biggest advantages of a gun over other weapons. If we wanted them to reload their guns quickly it's a bit more difficult but that's not really a thing with last ditch guns, they're more for getting one shot off.
As for having our swordsmen fumbling with equipment, guns are no worse for this than any other weapon we could give them. Hell, the Last Ditch guns are specifically designed to be used for this exact scenario.
Also why bother giving them a throwing weapon when most of them already carry molotovs?
On the other hand, the latter category of enemy are the ones who don't outclass us in hand-to-hand to begin with, and thus don't present the same order of problem that we're trying to solve.
And as for the former category of enemy, well, having a spear sticking out of him won't stop an orc from making a damn good attempt to kill you in hand-to-hand, but it does at least mean he's probably not at the top of his game. May make the difference between a soldier being killed or maimed, or between losing three men and losing two. That kind of thing.
Guns are expensive but we're the ones building enough guns to start handing them out to our militia
Training men to use guns is actually pretty darn easy. Historically it was one of the biggest advantages of a gun over other weapons. If we wanted them to reload their guns quickly it's a bit more difficult but that's not really a thing with last ditch guns, they're more for getting one shot off.
As for having our swordsmen fumbling with equipment, guns are no worse for this than any other weapon we could give them. Hell, the Last Ditch guns are specifically designed to be used for this exact scenario.
Also why bother giving them a throwing weapon when most of them already carry molotovs?
Good point about the last ditch guns. I also didn't realized that all of pur troops carry molotovs, they don't seem to be listed in the upgrades list.
My thought process is that since sworsmen are ultimately primarily melee combatants I just want to give them a cheap and easy to learned range option. Since I was imagining something like hundreds of people throwing them at the same time, I thought weight of fire will compensate for any deficiency in individual effectiveness. However, if the last ditch guns and molotov cocktails are cheap and easy enough to use already for what I am imagining, than I guess it is really not needed.
Edit:
My thought was also that any range weapon we give the swordsmen should not be someyow make it harder for them to use their actual sword and shield. I thought that javelins are the perfect weapon for this.
Good point about the last ditch guns. I also didn't realized that all of pur troops carry molotovs, they don't seem to be listed in the upgrades list.
My thought process is that since sworsmen are ultimately primarily melee combatants I just want to give them a cheap and easy to learned range option. Since I was imagining something like hundreds of people throwing them at the same time, I thought weight of fire will compensate for any deficiency in individual effectiveness. However, if the last ditch guns and molotov cocktails are cheap and easy enough to use already for what I am imagining, than I guess it is really not needed.
Edit:
My thought was also that any range weapon we give the swordsmen should not be someyow make it harder for them to use their actual sword and shield. I thought that javelins are the perfect weapon for this.
It's in there, under Hohenzollern Cocktail (because in this universe they were named after the inventor, not ironically named after a guy firebombing civilians). I called them molotovs because that's something most people know and they're the same thing.
Refined Hohenzollern Cocktails - A mixture of alcohol and chemicals that burn better than just alcohol would, set aflame and thrown at the enemy. Most infantry units carry at least one on them into battle, granting minor fire damage abilities and a last ditch attack should they be about to be overwhelmed.
It's also worth noting that at full strength we have 6000 swordsmen between our 3 armies. We have 10,000 Minutemen (gun armed militia), so I think if we wanted to we'd be capable of equipping them. We also have 5000 Salkalten Guard (again, at full strength) who are armed with guns, 7000 properly trained handgunners and we've been discussing equipping our 6000 light cavalry with Heavy Blastguns, essentially a very powerful shotgun.
Production of guns is something we're really quite good at, Freddy's nicknamed the Graf of Guns for a reason
Talking about upgrading our army I wonder if seeing the suicide flagellants in action might give a boost to Anna for getting inspiration for coming up with the exploding lances that @torroar once mention. He did mentioned how they can be imagined as a boom disc strapped to the end of a long pole. So it doesn't seem like that big of a leap from strapping boom disc to people to strapping them to long sticks.
Edit:
Mostly talking about this because I feel that if there is a component of our army that could use more upgrades its the calvary. They seem to be somewhat neglected compared to the other part of our forces.
Talking about upgrading our army I wonder if seeing the suicide flagellants in action might give a boost to Anna for getting inspiration for coming up with the exploding lances that @torroar once mention. He did mentioned how they can be imagined as a boom disc strapped to the end of a long pole. So it doesn't seem like that big of a leap from strapping boom disc to people to strapping them to long sticks.
Mostly talking about this because I feel that if there is a component of our army that could use more upgrades its the calvary. They seem to be somewhat neglected compared to the other part of our forces.
Or we can give them the Heavy Blastguns we specifically designed for this purpose and we'll probably lose a lot fewer of our light cavalry to shrapnel as they charge into combat with a bomb on a stick
[CANON] A report to the Count of Ostland on the Types of Greenskin Ships Employed in the Sea of Claws. - iggyfan
A report to the Count of Ostland on the Types of Greenskin Ships Employed in the Sea of Claws.
Looted ships:
The most common ship employed by the greenskin pirates of the Sea of Claws are simple merchantmen that had the misfortune of being captured by greenskins. Cogs, Great Cogs, Knarrs, Caravels any ship will do as far as the Greenskins are concerned. Such vessels are promptly "improved" by adding effigies of Gork and Mork, haphazardly placed sails, random spikes, red paintjobs, etc. Like most Greenskin ships looted vessals receive little maintenance, and what maintenance they do receive is oftentimes worse than useless.
In battle looted ships employ one simple tactic: close with the enemy as quickly as possible and board them. While this is by and large a result of inexperienced kaptains wanting to "smash some 'eds" as soon as possible, it does suit these ships very well, as most of them are too small to fit a rock lobber or more than one bolt thrower.
The number of looted ships operating in the Sea of Claws is unknown but suspected to be over sixty.
Drillkillas:
The smallest of the purpose built ships employed by Greenskins, Drillkillas are named after massive forward facing drill that is their primary armament. Drillkillas generally lack any meaningful amount of sails and are almost wholly dependent on their treadwheel for power. Given the very poor quality of greenskin engineering and the fact that the treadwheel generally also rigged to their eponymous drill, this results in Drillkillas having very erratic movement, sometimes moving so sluggishly that a mild current is enough to halt their progress, sometimes moving faster than a war galley under both oars and sails.
The drill that gives Drillkillas their name is a formidable weapon if it is capable of getting into contact with the enemy's ship, capable of gouging enormous holes into the hull. In the event that the damage inflicted by the drill does not sink the target outright the resulting hole offers an easy entrance through which greenskin boarding parties pour through.
The number of Drillkillas operating in the Sea of Claws is somewhere between thirty and forty.
Bigchukkas
Larger than the Drillkillas are the Bigchukkas, named for the massive catapult that forms their primary armament. These vessels are primarily powered by treadwheels, though most have supplementary sails. This allows them to move even when the sea is becalmed, however due to the fact that the treadwheel is generally required to wind the bigchukka catapult they are incapable of moving with any sort of speed whilst loading their primary armament.
Their eponymous bigchukka is generally the longest-range weapon employed by Greenskin pirates, capable of chucking hundred pound stones great distances, often beyond the maximum range of cannon fire. Furthermore, they are capable of arcing their shots over intervening ships and other obstacles, and more than one captain has been surprised to find themselves under fire from ships that they cannot see.
The number of Bigchukkas operating in the Sea of Claws is somewhere between twelve and twenty-five.
Hulks:
Named for their unseaworthiness and an appearance that can generally be described as battered, Hulks are the largest variety of ships employed by Greenskins by a considerable margin. While some Hulks are purpose built, the majority arise "organically" as a successful kaptain clobbers together captured ships to his own. As such they are haphazardly built often with multiple internal walls that were former hulls, several rudders, multiple keels, etc. Such a "design" makes Hulks even slower than a ship of their size should be, but also makes them frustratingly durable, especially when combined with the Greenskins habit of cannibalizing other parts of the ship for damage control.
Hulks are generally powered by a combination of sails and treadwheels, though of course the exact details of such an arrangement varies considerably from vessel to vessel. While just about every Hulk carries some variety of bolt thrower or rock lobber, Hulks specialize in close quarters combat, with many sporting the "classical" iron clawz & smash hamma armament, wherein enemy ships are dragged towards the Hulk with specially designed bolt throwers, after which they are pummeled into flotsam by a massive drop hammer. While this armament is rather unwieldy, few ships subjected to such a tactic are capable of surviving it. Other Hulks dispense with the smash hamma to instead allow the crew to "'ave a good scrap." As the largest Greenskins generally gravitate to the largest ships these boarding parties can be quite formidable and it is a rare Hulk that doesn't have a mob of black orcs or big 'uns aboard.
The number of Greenskin Hulks operating in the Sea of Claws is unknown but is speculated to be somewhere between one and six.
There probably isn't going to be any of notice or concern.
1. These are flagellants, they aren't expected to survive. Not becase they are slayers seeking glorius death in combat but becase these are broken men and women with nothing but zealus faith and rageto keep them going. They don't have any self preservation and often in terible condition due to lack of self care. A mob of flagellant being copletely wiped out in not the exeption, its the norm. They don't really have any training or discipline, making welding them hard and forceses you to be rather blunt in how you use them. Their complete lack of any self preservation and armor cupeld with a lack of self care also makes them die out quite quickly with littel to show for their deaths, beyond serving as a distraction or road block. Their only stand out feature is that they are completely unbreakable. But this just enshures that they all die out to buy time more time. Nobody is going to bat an eye that noen of the flagellants survived the sige.
2. Victory washes away most sins. As said, flagellants aren't expected to survive a big battel, but they aren't realy expected to have much to show for their sacrifice and martyrdom either. The sucide bombers however, they got a lot of "value" to show for their secrifice. A large portions of the dark elf elite troops and war beast turned to smoke and gore, the same force that where just a few moment earlier slaughtering the non explosive flagellants. In therms of troop value ratio that is quite the trade, no mater how cold the logic is.
3. Death and glory. The Empire is a nation perpetual at war. Gurrila warfare from forest goblins and beastmen, raids, incursions and outright invations from norscan raiders and greenskins, and the undead, bourder disputes within and without. The ever present danger breeds a culture that is far more tolerant to loss of life. Where there are few thing as glorius, noble and honoreble as to give your life for a worthy case. "Blood of the martyr si the seed of the church." It would be esey to spin the the whole thingas a tragic, but also heroic act of self secrifice in the same of god(s) and country. It's not as the flagellants where forced to do it. Again these are flagellants, they fought one and another for the "honor" to where one of the bomb disc vests. One could argue they are being taken advantage of, but with how common it is to just throw the flagellants at the enemy with no regard for their survival, I don't think many would care, or see the moral difference.
Here's hoping that having our fleet sunk so close to Salkalten meant a lot of our sailors made it to shore, 'cause we have enough of a hull shortage already; we really don't need a skilled manpower shortage to boot.
If we still have sailors, we could possibly borrow a few ships from Nordland, but if a large chunk of our trained sailors are dead we're in for a rough decade in the Sea of Claws.
The average Greenskin Fleet is not usually up to that standard, and for the most part most of that fluff needs a Dawi Zharr to support the truly good stuff in the Greenskin Fleet. Which is assuming the Greenskins wouldn't be closer to individual raiders than a actual coherent fleet.
The Sea of Claws should be mostly safe after this. I know some people were panicking because Ostland's Fleet is reduced so deeply, and they want to get some ships from Nordland, but that's not necessary.
Total
Ostland Naval Forces Ships: (living 12/112) : Imperial Wolf Ships (living 10/51) + Wargalleys (living 0/59) + Ostland Greatship 'Mace of Magnus' (living 1/1) [Heavily Damaged] + Ostland Greatship 'Arthur's Sword' (living 1/1) [Substantially Damaged, Near Total Loss]
Total
Ostland Mercenary Ships Present: (living 10/14) : Heavily Customized War Galleons, Overweight With Weaponry And Boarding Crew [Red Anne] (living 1/4) + Ironclad Ship 'The Fair Fregar' With Dwarf Naval Cannons, 4 Ironclad Dinghies, 150 Slayer Crewmen, 1 Long Drong [Slayers] (living 0/1 Ironclad Ship, living 0/4 Ironclad Dinghies, living 0/150 Slayer Crewmen, living 0/1 Long Drong [Slayer]) + Heavily Customized War Galleons And Crew [Saltspear] (living 5/5) + War Barques of Araby [Golden Scimitars] (living 4/4)
Total
Cult of Manann in Ostland (ships): (living 0/21) : Cult of Manann Bretonnian War Galleons (living 0/5) + Cult of Manann Imperial Wolf Ships (living 0/10) + Cult of Manann Seaborne Cathedral 'Grace of Storms', Personal Ship of High Matriarch Maghda (living 0/1) + Ostland Greatship 'Fist of Frederick' (living 0/1) + Ostland Greatship 'Natasha's Grace' (living 0/1) + Ostland Greatship 'Alexandra's Hammer' (living 0/1) + Ostland Greatship 'Blue Anna' (living 0/1) + Ostland Greatship 'Oskar's Omen' (living 0/1)
Total 'Living' Nordland Naval Forces Present
Ships of Nordland: (living 434/542) : Wolf Ships (living 170/200) + War Galleys (living 90/125) + Appropriated Ravenships of the Eternal Fortress of Torture [3 Lost After Landing on Ark] (living 4/7) + Appropriated Dagger Ships of the Eternal Fortress of Torture [20 Lost After Landing on Ark] (living 50/70) + Appropriated Dreadstalker Transports of the Eternal Fortress of Torture (living 25/25) + Appropriated Ravenships of the Claw of Dominion (living 10/10) + Appropriated Dagger Ships of the Claw of Dominion [20 Lost After Landing] (lving 60/80) + Appropriated Dreadstalker Transports of the Claw of Dominion (living 25/25)
'Deputized' Assorted Trader Ships: 34 (living ???/34): 34 'Deputized' Assorted Trader Ships [x4 Arabyan, x10 Bretonnian, x3 Estalian, x5 Tilean, x12 Imperial] (lost ?????/34 QM never said what was lost here)
Note on Druchii Vessels
in the end Nordland Obtained 0 - Death Fortresses = 200 Corsair Crew [24 Reaper Bolt Throwers] Mounted Atop 1 Sea Dragon
In the end Nordland Obtained 0 - Doomreavers = 75 Corsair Crew [6 Reaper Bolt Throwers] Mounted Atop 1 Helldrake
In the end Nordland Obtained 14 - Ravenships = 400 Corsair Crew [48 Reaper Bolt Throwers] + 300 "Transport" Capacity + Often Carries Sorceress into Battle
In the end Nordland Obtained 110 - Dagger Ships = 50 Corsair Crew [4 Reaper Bolt Throwers] = 150 "Transport" Cpacity
In the end Nordland Obtained 50 - Dreadstalker Transports = 50 Corsair Crew [2 Reaper Bolt Throwers] = 1,000 "Transport" Capacity
So, Nordland gained 174 ships at the end of the Black Ark conflict, bumping Nordland's navy up to a very high 434 ships total. Ostland's Navy was around 126 ships, 147 really with the Cult of Manann's ships, but 126 is closer to what Ostland would have each year. Ostland was limited to 120 ships docked in it's ports. The rolls for the Sea of Claws are an overall thing that Ostland, Nordland, and Kislev contribute to. With Ostland's contribution being a drop in the bucket even when Ostland crits on it's roll for the Sea of Claws.
As long as Kislev has Kattarin or the Romanovs as the winner of the Civil War. It should be fine for Ostland to not seek to get some of Nordland's ships, as those two are really solid options to patrol the Sea of Claws (Keep the naval expert in Nordland supplied with their ships to get the most benefit). And Ostland needs to rebuild it's main port from scratch, thus Ostland is probably limited to maybe 50 ships in it's docks, or less? Ostland has 22/Whatever the current docking space number is, that is occupied by ships.
The Cult of Manann took the most Greatship loses, with Ostland's own Greatships looking to need at least one to be retired.
@iggyfan any chance you can write-up fleets for Estalia, Tilea, Bretonnia, Araby, Ind, Nippon, Nehekhara, and Cathay? Probably need to do some homebrew, but some basic idea of what they could have or were once like would be great. Kislev too would be nice on that list.
