Like, it's not really a 'gotcha', for me. The two big Cults who love literacy and having literacy be a thing? Yes, they use the Printing Presses, what ones exist, to help print out their holy books to try and distribute to the people. Other Cults do the same, to lesser extents, except for the fact that the Taalites hate technology so they wouldn't want their holy books to be made in that fashion, and so far the Rhyans mostly follow that same path. Not a lot of people want to read, who can read, much about Morr, aside from those specifically going to his temples for their own reasons. The Cult of Manann is so omnipresent and their general rules pretty well known, they don't necessarily need to try and shove their books deep into the mainland when those on the shores and riversides know well enough. Plus, one of their Holy Books is just a book of 1000 Shanties, so...yeah.

And yeah, danger being a thing hasn't stopped progress from progressing, but it does mean that it doesn't quite progress in the same way that it would on Earth as it necessarily would on Mallus. That's all I'm saying.

Also, fun fact from the Tome of Salvation:

Many Sigmarite superstitions revolve around the risk of corruption
in thought. A particularly common one is the belief that it is
bad luck to be the first to read a particular piece of writing.
Someone else should read it first, and then be examined for signs
of corruption. A few priests take this to the extreme of believing
it is impious to read at all, as typographical errors could introduce
heresy into even the holy books of Sigmar. Some other priests
acknowledge and accept the risk of reading, but see typographical
errors in any book as a sign of corruption by the Ruinous Powers.
The printer whose pamphlets misspell the name of Sigmar had
best beware, lest he be lynched, his typo used as evidence that he
consorts with the Ruinous Powers.
 
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I uh, I sorta already referenced the Cult of Verena and Myrmidia doing that? You know, as recognized Cults of the Empire?

Cult of Taal and Rhya have their holy books, but their main methods of instruction are in-person tutoring/instruction/education/indoctrination, involving heading out into the woods or fields and imbibing substances and communing with nature unchained and nature tamed both.

Cult of Ulric and Sigmar often would prefer just shouting out the stuff from the mouths of the priests and their initiates, sure, while the Cult of Sigmar might well be using the printing presses so that they each have a book chained to their waist or wrapped and kept to their forehead - but they also might prefer handwritten texts for the personal holy touch.

Cult of Esmeralda's main book is a huge cookbook, which, yeah, is helped by printing press and what not.

But uh, yeah, I already literally did mention the two Cults mainly making use of exactly what you are talking about already??????
Change takes time. Like the seed drill. The players have been aware of what they need to do to get the seed drill to others, but they have yet to do that (Taal and Rhya cult option).

I think it's just a gap of acknowledgement that a increase of Empire Wide Literacy is going to be a slow gradual process across centuries instead of inside a decade. As villages, farms, and travellers, disappear outside of the cities harming those who might have learned how to read outside of the cities.

Hm, how about this for a question. Was there ever a time the Literacy Empire Wide for the Empire of Man was above 50%? I would think there might have been sometime between the death of Mandred Skavenslayer and the reign of Emperor Magnus the Pious. Based on Mordheim's existence, and the general quality of people in at least Altdorf for Leonardo to acquire.

Edit: A mechanics question: If any emperor of the Empire of Man dies outside the year of a Electors Meet, do we go into EM turns and reset the EM counter or go into a special turn session unrelated to the EMs? Or do we wait for the scheduled EM to decide the new emperor/empress?
 
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I think a lot of people forget that Elector Counts are not simply governors as we know them in the modern conception, these people are NOBLES, as in their entire way of rulership is determined by birth and death and in no way they will "retire" unless they die or something really bad happens(like becoming incapable or similar) and even if the ruler becomes incapable he won't suddenly give his title to the sucessor, instead the next person becomes a regent until the ruler dies.
 
Hm, how about this for a question. Was there ever a time the Literacy Empire Wide for the Empire of Man was above 50%? I would think there might have been sometime between the death of Mandred Skavenslayer and the reign of Emperor Magnus the Pious. Based on Mordheim's existence, and the general quality of people in at least Altdorf for Leonardo to acquire.
No. The sources are very consistent that most people in the Old World itself flat out do not read as per the description of the career of Scribes.

A scribe is a person capable of reading and writing one or several languages fluently in the Old World, where illiteracy is rampant. Scribes and scriveners fill a particular niche in Old World society. As most people can't read or write, the Cult of Sigmar prefers that the common people listen and learn rather than read and learn.
Even those in the city are stated to be illiterate per Reading and Writing equipment.

Few people in the Old World can read or write. A skill reserved for scholars, priests, and the aristocracy, most people get by fine, using pictures and illustrations for signs to orient themselves in a city. Most people recognize numbers though. Most Reading and Writing equipment is useless for the majority of Old Worlders, who see little value in a tome other than to use it as a cutting board or coaster.


A big limit to mass printing is not so much the technological limits of the printing press but rather the availability of cheap paper and ink.
Also this. Books are waaayyyyy too expensive for peasants to afford. A single parchment/sheet of paper is worth a shilling. Which is enough money to buy an entire day's worth of food for a peasant. Other examples have a book on engineering costs 3 gold crowns and a book on medicine costing 15 gold crowns.* Yes, a single book on medicine is worth over three times more than a draft horse (which is 4 gold crowns for one).

EDIT:
*And then there is WFRP 2nd - Old World Armory which puts a book at a whopping 75 to 350 gold crown.

 
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A stick of charcoal is bloody expensive according to that
Because it was. People really underestimate how cheap things are now thanks to the industrial revolution. Before the Printing Press, each book was a commision which you have to pay someone to make by hand. Even when the first printing press was invented IRL, it still took three years to make a complete copy of the Bible and had an expense that amounted to about three times the annual salary of an average clerk.
 
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Also, fun fact from the Tome of Salvation:

Many Sigmarite superstitions revolve around the risk of corruption
in thought. A particularly common one is the belief that it is
bad luck to be the first to read a particular piece of writing.
Someone else should read it first, and then be examined for signs
of corruption. A few priests take this to the extreme of believing
it is impious to read at all, as typographical errors could introduce
heresy into even the holy books of Sigmar. Some other priests
acknowledge and accept the risk of reading, but see typographical
errors in any book as a sign of corruption by the Ruinous Powers.
The printer whose pamphlets misspell the name of Sigmar had
best beware, lest he be lynched, his typo used as evidence that he
consorts with the Ruinous Powers.
Pffft, of course. Makes me wonder how Ulricians think of reading and writing. :p

I assume this is before they made the holy book of Sigmar in general, and that they like the development of the printing press to avoid human error... unless of course the witch hunters are always checking them over in the case of 'intentional' misspelling or other hidden heretical markings being made en mass, which is sadly a real concern.

After all, a printing press can make making a bunch of unholy writing easier as well without the writer becoming mad, assuming the text block don't melt under repeated usage of course.
 
I assume this is before they made the holy book of Sigmar in general, and that they like the development of the printing press to avoid human error... unless of course the witch hunters are always checking them over in the case of 'intentional' misspelling or other hidden heretical markings being made en mass, which is sadly a real concern.

Dunno why you'd assume that. They had the Deus Sigmar basically written and done by the end of the term of the First Grand Theogonist, Helsturm. The Testaments of Sigmar were written even sooner, a short while after Sigmar abdicated.

The excerpt mentions a printer by occupation, not a scribe or monk doing regular handwritten copies. According to 2nd Edition, the most well known Imperial version was invented in 2517, and was already relatively efficient and modestly widespread by 2522. And immediately began being used by agitators, demagogues, and street politicians to go wild, as well as produce a major and ongoing issue of people producing literature which is not terribly respectable. Or worse. It also did produce new sheets and altered the town crier job significantly.

At the moment, the printing press for DoDA is a relatively interesting curiosity.

Additionally, the circumstances of its invention as significantly different. Canon has it being popularized and accredited in the Empire to a devout Sigmarite in Middenheim of all places. Doesn't take a nutcracker to expose that walnut to the world of what he immediately and likely extensively used it for. Which, in turn, enshrined it's first use and directed its succeeding uses. In DoDA, it has been created by the Engineers of Altdorf, who make weird rare stuff a lot, things of great interest but not necessarily mass production and dissemination. ATM, it is being used for purely scholarly purposes, producing certain holy texts by - again - the two Cults biggest into literacy, and perhaps some richer nobility. Which, in turn, causes a bit of friction amongst the other Cults due to rivalries and dislikes and so on. Also, it still takes time to make whole books. The Ostland School is using theirs to make copies of manuals for instruction and such for students and teachers alike.

I am not saying that attempting to increase overall literacy and/or education is a bad thing.

I am saying it isn't that simple.
 
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I am not saying that attempting to increase overall literacy and/or education is a bad thing.

I am saying it isn't that simple.
Of course, of course. Especially for a medieval death world society where people are constantly worried about attacks from literal monsters, they have more important things to worry about on average.

Don't mind taking long road to get there, cause that means we are doing a well enough job protecting people that we can afford to focus on that stuff.
 
Of course, of course. Especially for a medieval death world society where people are constantly worried about attacks from literal monsters, they have more important things to worry about on average.

Don't mind taking long road to get there, cause that means we are doing a well enough job protecting people that we can afford to focus on that stuff.

Also as torroar mentioned, it's complicated by issues such as simply reading or even touching a corrupt book could damn you.

So one cultist screwing with a press could cause an outbreak of mutations or something.

It's enough of a concern with books that even innocent typos are seen as suspicious by some.

Doesn't mean there aren't benefits to using the press and improving literacy. Just be aware of the risks.
 
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Really don't have a lot of time right now, but some further conversational bullet points before I disappear without ability to meaningfully respond at length to anyone for a good long stretch.

Christianity as we know it has that thing, that BC thing, which if we go by that, the Cult of Sigmar has been going on for longer than that by a couple hundred years. Islam is generally regarded as having a 7th Century origin point.

Sigmar is older than both of those. Ulric, Taal, Rhya, Morr, etc. are older than Sigmar. Myrmidia was a Goddess who became mortal and then re-became a Goddess, as far as most regard that whole situation, while Sigmar was a mortal who became a God. He was not a Jesus expy, he was explicitly and purposefully a mortal who later became a God. Their Cults have been running around doing things for a long, long time. There is Judaism, which is older more or less depending on what theological scholarly stuff you apply, but that's not the point.

The point is that they have had their holy works and texts and what not, and have had them, and have percolated them around for a long, long time as well. You will simply not find people who are ignorant as to the Gods, for the most part. How they regard them can differ wildly, but they're hardly utterly uneducated as to the Gods.

Furthermore, you're very unlikely to have a quasi sort of Islamic Golden Age of sciences and what not if you're just focusing on the Cult of Ulric and Cult of Sigmar i.e. the two biggest main Cults in all the Empire. Ulric, while not to the extent of Taal, has a good shade of anti-intellectual bent to the Cult, like refusing black powder for the truly faithful and also straight up refusing to wear helmets most of the time.

Having someone wander up to an Ulrican, pushing their glasses up their nose, and say 'Um, ackshually, I a mere common man have been properly educated and statistics show that cranial injuries blah blah lbah' at which point the Ulrican beats their head in. Because Ulrican stuff abhors trickery, and any tactics that seem cowardly, and solve their disputes often with active martial combat. You are not going to convince Ulricans that they are wrong, a lot of the time, simply with words and such.

Meanwhile, Sigmar has the very first in their list of major tenets as 'Obey your orders', another about dwarfs, another about opposing greenskins+Chaos+corrupt magics, and also 'Work to promote the unity of the Empire, even at the cost of individual liberty.' and 'Bear true allegiance to His Imperial Majesty, the Emperor.'

So on the one hand, there may well be a market for printing out Sigmar books. And maybe only Sigmarite books. And maybe you trying to print things that disagree with Sigmar means you should be burned at the stake, and your tainted printing press too. Opening up options and opportunities can be a great thing, but it can also lead to people questioning or grasping for more and even if they are capable of doing so and may even be right to do so there lies the major issues of doctrinal friction. It might work out for the better, it might not. The point is, it's not that simple.

I've brought this up before, a bit hesitantly, but we just can't necessarily equate IRL religious stuff with IC Warhammer religious stuff. Whatever your beliefs on faith healing and miracles and what not, the simple fact of the matter is that Warhammer religions do faith healing and miracles - and they do it a heck of a lot more with a lot more in-universe documentation and proof and 1st hand accounts than they have ever taken place IRL. Vast armies of actual infidels and daemons straight up do just come out of nowhere and attack sometimes, instead of just calling opposing people IRL such things. The Pope has called Crusades, but I've never seen nor heard of the man calling down a massive cross-shaped meteor to slam into the earth and break apart the walls of a castle made of blood and bone which manifested out of a battlefield full of freshly slain dead that was staffed by straight up demons. The way of regarding and treating with religions between IRL and IC cannot be a 1:1 ratio, it just can't. When a Taalite priest tries to show a machine-made book to the gargantuan super moose with green glowing eyes and ivy-covered horns in his dreams and Taal says 'nope, don't like that' and the priest wakes up with the machine-made book rotted away into mulch by his bedside. When a Verenan prays so hard that the pages of the books they've nailed into their skin start glowing and forming a large translucent shield. When a sneaky Chaos cultist sneaks in a regular seeming book on the outside into a library and some bored scholar grabs it and doesn't even notice that with every word he reads aloud to his children that their souls are draining out of them and into the book.

I'm not saying that these things are omnipresent and constantly happening or are constantly going to happen, just that they can, have, and do on a level that requires active mental separation from how one regards IRL and Mallus and Warhammer as a universe. Which means that they have to be treated with somewhat of a different mentality. In the USA, we still take our shoes off and all the what have you, despite 9/11 being a ways back, and there being very few - comparatively - plane hijackings IRL, we have all sorts of security measures for these few things that happened those few times, and a lot of pushback on culling those measures. Horrible tragedies and mistakes, but you have to remember that such things happen in Warhammer society - comparatively - a lot more. On Mallus, witches do go crazy and call down demons, necromancers are waking up graveyards or making horrible frankensteins, innocent children are corrupted for no good reason and at no fault of their own sometimes even in the womb, and people make mistakes that can damn themselves or others even with the best of intentions. Ignorance is sometimes a defense against the horrors of Mallus, and yet sometimes they are a terrible vulnerability! Same goes for education and the educated. Sometimes the smarter people know better, and sometimes they think they do, but they don't.

And using the Bible and the Quran as examples as two mega big religions, just like Sigmar and Ulric, just doesn't work the same. Because they don't want or go about things the same way as God/Allah/Whatever.

Which is why, at the beginning, I specifically brought up Myrmidia and Verena.

Because those are the Gods that believe in enlightening people through their teachings which come with literature, education, instruction, questioning literally baked into their Cults. It is a standing issue between Myrmidians and Verenans and Ulricans/Sigmarites that the former are expected to question their teachers and priestly instructors, to debate them, to engage intellectually, whereas the latter's response is a hefty beating or lashing or whatever instead.

If you want to push education in the vein of religious boosting as mentioned with the Bible and Quran with the printing press, you go with the Cults I already mentioned. Who, however, it needs to be remembered, are a minority amongst the other Cults for a variety of reasons, and that have had a lot of pushback from Sigmar, Ulric, Taal+Rhya, who have a weightier grasp over the people by dint of massive historical and cultural weight and inertia. You could try with the Cult of Sigmar or Ulric, but there are the difficulties involved, the actual doctrinal issues involved, etc. but of the Cults, the ones that would actually support and engage in the same sort of manner as seemingly described/desired with boosting literacy with the Bible/Quran would be - again - Myrmidia and Verena.

Also, yes, ink and actual paper are expensive.
 
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*Stares* Hey @torroar when you're back can you remind me what specifically you said to me on talking about Warhammer occultic metatext in this specific context?

I remember it being some version of don't, but I can't remember which right now.
 
The Pope has called Crusades, but I've never seen nor heard of the man calling down a massive cross-shaped meteor to slam into the earth and break apart the walls of a castle made of blood and bone which manifested out of a battlefield full of freshly slain dead that was staffed by straight up demons
Honestly if he did it'd definitely be the most convincing theological argument I've ever seen
 
When a Taalite priest tries to show a machine-made book to the gargantuan super moose with green glowing eyes and ivy-covered horns in his dreams and Taal says 'nope, don't like that' and the priest wakes up with the machine-made book rotted away into mulch by his bedside.
Well of course if the guy tries to show Taal a textbook on the 1st Industrial Revolution, he's is going to think it's a bit shit. Give The Moose something like Walden, My Life with the Chimpanzees, Penguins of the World, he'll have a better experience.
When a Verenan prays so hard that the pages of the books they've nailed into their skin start glowing and forming a large translucent shield.
I'm not doubting divine protection or what Verana intervening can do, but you sure the shining and lack of damage is from an otherworldly source? Maybe I'm wrong, but the fact the nutter has put an otherwise lethal amount of sharp metal objects with flat heads into his body probably has some effect on slashing weapons.
When a sneaky Chaos cultist sneaks in a regular seeming book on the outside into a library and some bored scholar grabs it and doesn't even notice that with every word he reads aloud to his children that their souls are draining out of them and into the book.
So that's why Balthazar Gelt is single.
 
Man now im wondering how the old world paper industry works. Is it papyrus? How expensive are books if anybody has a source book?
This is straight from WFRP - Old World Armouries 2nd ED.



So books are 75 gold crowns at its cheapest with 350 gold crowns at its highest. A piece of parchment costs 1 shilling while a piece of paper is five times as much. For context, the same book lists the average cost of food per day as 10 brass pennies.

So yeah, a single piece of paper costs as much as 6 days of food, while the cheapest book is literally worth 4.5 years of food.

Now. WFRP 4th Edition rulebook has reduced the price of books so its now its 1 - 20 gold crowns. But this is still well out of the range of commoners/peasants since the average cost of a day of food is still 10 brass pennies.

 
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