"I don't see Landuin anywhere," you say, glancing back at Roland. "Did you set him somewhere else or…,"

You trail off as you see Roland's face fall.

"Oh. Oh no."

You heroic bastard! You were supposed to frolic back into Brettonian Horsey Paradise! You could've sired the next generation of Landuin Jrs to outfit the entirety of Roland's Mousillon Foreign Legion!

But nooooo you just had to get that one kick in. May the Horsey gods bless you on the way out to the foreverglades you stubborn horsey!

[X] Plan: Defence in Depth + Allow

Everything is true, nothing is permitted.
 
But nooooo you just had to get that one kick in. May the Horsey gods bless you on the way out to the foreverglades you stubborn horsey!
Still hoping that if Roland becomes a Grail Knight the Lady will bless him Landuin back too.
Though, we're also probably going to also be doing a lot of other religious actions in the aftermath too.
I don't see why, using suicide bombers while distasteful to our RL morals and sad in quest seems like something to chat with GT about before assuming it will be seen negatively since this is same guy who turned a troubled young women into a holy weapon after all.
 
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On the subject of penance and what not, don't worry! I have a wealth of options to offer. The most gentle starts at regular prayer, then goes to reading of holy books, then abstinence! Not necessarily of sex, but it could be of food, sleep, or any particular pleasure. Unfortunately, Sigmar cares less about that sort of thing. Fasting is good for Shallyans, Myrmidians, Watching is good for Morrites, and Ulricans go naked into snow for a night or two or longer.

Self-flagellation is the next step up, and very popular for the Cult of Sigmar. Anyone who does it gets labeled a dangerous fanatic! Unless they only do it very occasionally, only after major offenses. Though the Cult of Manann also approves of it.

But for Sigmar, you've got branding yourself, often on the forehead or hand. Not quite the same as Keelhauling for Manann, or flaying yourself and writing your sins in your blood on your own skin for Verena. But there's also sacrifice of destruction. Sigmar loves it when you sacrifice lots of orc heads to him by destroying them. Or do a Quest for Sigmar. Or you can permanently mutilate yourself, that's another popular Flagellant thing. Or general branding, scarification, tattoos, etc. Or you can set yourself to a pyre and set yourself on fire, only to be doused at the final moment where you might have died, and be very slowly healed over the course of a year by the Jade Wizards. Or just have the Flagellants beat you for an entire hour. Dunno, those are just off the top of my head.

----------------

But I can fully assure ya'll that Frederick won't be making the 'fire and forget' thought process of with the Holders of the Shore. He has his blindspots, everyone does, but this cleaves close enough that he'd be aware of the implications. And yes, there could very well be diplomacy/piety actions dedicated to managing the aftermath, depending on the choices/votes made.
 
Corralling and weaponising the mentally ill is something that comes up a weird amount of times in fiction, considering the only time that tactic ever really worked was, possibly maybe (we're still not sure), with the berserkers… the same people who got banned in their own homelands for being vicious head-hunters when their native peoples converted en masse and their religious significance was antiquated.

I mean, I'm pretty sure even in Warhammer, the Empire would be actively censuring flagellants if not for the endless waves of enemies on every side.

I can see why it propagates, because the classic bear skinning battle-rager is someone who is objectively mentally ill and only questionably should be fielded instead of, say, institutionalised (not that many settings have the option), but still.
 
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[X] Plan: Defence in Depth + Allow

Frankly, I'm not sure why we should feel worse about flagellants when giving them bombs. They want to die killing their enemies, so we are giving them something to make sure they have a better chance of succeeding. I don't condone suicide, and the very concept of flagellants disturbs me viscerally, but I'm not sure why I should be more upset by someone blowing themselves up rather than killing themselves by suicidal charges and likely being torn apart and killed slowly by sadistic psychos.
 
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1 Vapor Tank 'Little Guvuar' - Masterful creation of advanced engineering, powered by alcoholic vapor engine. Possesses incredibly thick plating, a set of covered wheels that can go on and off-road, and a lighter Dash Cannon as its main ballistic weapon. However, as befitting their origins in the Steam Tanks, this vehicle has come with a modified weapon loadout. Specifically, a modified deathspinner sitting at the front of the tank which is connected to the vapor system to allow for constant spinning and death as the tank slices and hacks apart those before it. Cupola can open up to allow better sighting, as well as allow a crewmember to man its smaller swivel cannon or their own personal weaponry. (Greater Defense, Decent Mobility) [Crewed By Team of 1 Master Engineer, 3 Senior Engineers, 1 Engineer]
Just noticed this! Love how we are continuing tradition of making each tank a custom design with own weapon loadout and such.

Seems like Little Guvuar is a frontline tank with that deathspinner on the front, turning it into a thresher from hell! Will be great against to use against the less armored units like poorly equipped slaves, witch elves, sisters of slaughter, etc.

I vote we put so it follows not long after the wave of bombers.
 
I can see why it propagates, because the classic bear skinning battle-rager is someone who is objectively mentally ill and only questionably should be fielded instead of, say, institutionalised (not that many settings have the option), but still.

Well there's that.

But also, in Warhammer, they genuinely sometimes get divine favor going for them. It's literally mechanically baked in. Priests and Flagellants who mutilate themselves, who brand themselves, get boosts to their casting rolls of their Divine Lores. There's stuff like Fate and Fortune Points, which can blatantly save you from death through literal divine intervention. It is not impossible for a Flagellant to suddenly become enveloped in a burning aura of golden soulfire that scorches the unclean but leaves the devotees of the Empire untouched. Sometimes, the Gods really are speaking in their heads. One of the career exits for the Flagellant career path was Priest, so maybe all that crazy wasn't so crazy, and it turns out they really can call upon the Divine Lore and bring down burning holy comets onto the heads of their enemies, and things like that.

Raging, frothing berserkers is one thing IRL, sure. But while I do keep a deep love in my heart for magic, for mystery, for the unexplained IRL, I also know things would probably be a bit different if things happened like Viking berserkers being capable of screaming cones of blood-freezing frost and lashing out with icicle claws that formed on their knuckles.

In Warhammer, sometimes, there really are daemons in your head making you crazy.
 
[X] Plan: Defence in Depth + Allow

They will die. We can help them die well. And by that, I mean with some druchii worm to blow up alongside.
 
In fairness, the pagan Norse were convinced the berserkers carried divine favour and were blessed with supernatural strength, or even straight up possession and shape shifting; hence their strange nature, and their being tolerated and even courted for favour despite that (since everyone wants someone who fights so savagely Odin nods along on their side, and not the other).

But literal freezing auras and manifesting ice weapons would probably mean Christianity never makes it through North Europe, to be honest, since 'this person is ridiculously tough' is not a miracle on the scale of 'screw you, let me manifest my spirit weapon'.
 
Other stuff fixed now, very appreciated.

Magister Thistle was replaced by Magister Thelme. No, Thistle did not tell anyone about this, they just stopped showing up and Thelme was there instead.

Unless they're the same person. But probably not.

Maybe.

I'll fix the Sons of Manann in a bit.
Perhaps increase the numbers on all the Knightly Orders?
The Bull Warriors
1 Grand Master Karl Kaiser
1 Mounted Preceptor Ludwig Brandt
1 Foot Preceptor Sven Voit
35 Knights of the Inner Circle
200 Infantry Knights
100 Mounted Knights
250 Bowmen-At-Arms
100 Crossbow-Men-At-Arms
4 Ballista
2 Attached Shallyan Priestesses
Opinion Of You: 90%
Citadel Location: Jegow
Principal Deity: Secular
Recruitment Policy: All Men, Noble or Common, of Ostland

Knights of the White Wolf
1 Company Commander
4 Templar Sergeants
3 Warrior Priests of Ulric
20 White Wolves of the Inner Circle
50 White Wolf Knights On Foot
300 Mounted White Wolf Knights
Opinion Of You: 85%
Chapterhouse Location: Wulfenburg
Principal Deity: Ulric
Recruitment Policy: All Men, Noble or Common

Knights of Morr/Black Guard of Morr
1 High Guardian of the Garden
2 Warrior Priests of Morr
50 Guardians of the Garden [Inner Circle]
750 Infantry Knights
Opinion of You: 90%
Chapterhouse Location: Wulfenburg
Principal Deity: Morr
Recruitment Policy: Secret Tests

Knights Raven
1 High Seeker of the Raven
4 Warrior Priests of Morr
20 Seekers of the Raven [Inner Circle]
250 Infantry Knights
500 Mounted Knights
Opinion of You: 90%
Chapterhouse Location: Wulfenburg
Principal Deity: Morr
Recruitment Policy: Secret Tests

Knights of the North Star
1 Chapter Commander
20 Knights of the Inner Circle
200 Infantry Knights
500 Mounted Knights
Opinion of You: 64%
Chapterhouse Location: Wulfenburg
Principal Deity: Secular
Recruitment Policy: Noble Blooded Men Of The North Only

Sons of Manann
1 Company Commander Lars Gildemeister
10 Warrior Priests of Manann
25 Stormbreakers [Inner Circle]
500 Sea-Faring Knights
500 Mounted Knights
Opinion of You: 81%
Chapterhouse Location: Salkalten
Principal Deity: Manann
Recruitment Policy: All Men, Noble or Common.
The Bull Warriors
1 Grand Master Karl Kaiser
1 Mounted Preceptor Ludwig Brandt
1 Foot Preceptor Sven Voit
35 Knights of the Inner Circle
300 Infantry Knights
250 Mounted Knights
350 Bowmen-At-Arms
400 Crossbow-Men-At-Arms
4 Ballista
7 Attached Shallyan Priestesses
Opinion Of You: 90%
Citadel Location: Jegow
Principal Deity: Secular
Recruitment Policy: All Men, Noble or Common, of Ostland

Knights of the White Wolf
1 Company Commander
4 Templar Sergeants
3 Warrior Priests of Ulric
20 White Wolves of the Inner Circle
50 White Wolf Knights On Foot
265 Mounted White Wolf Knights
Opinion Of You: 90%
Chapterhouse Location: Wulfenburg
Principal Deity: Ulric
Recruitment Policy: All Men, Noble or Common

Knights of Morr/Black Guard of Morr
1 High Guardian of the Garden
2 Warrior Priests of Morr
50 Guardians of the Garden [Inner Circle]
600 Infantry Knights
Opinion of You: 90%
Chapterhouse Location: Wulfenburg
Principal Deity: Morr
Recruitment Policy: Secret Tests

Knights Raven
1 High Seeker of the Raven
4 Warrior Priests of Morr
20 Seekers of the Raven [Inner Circle]
250 Infantry Knights
500 Mounted Knights
Opinion of You: 90%
Chapterhouse Location: Wulfenburg
Principal Deity: Morr
Recruitment Policy: Secret Tests

Knights of the North Star
1 Chapter Commander
20 Knights of the Inner Circle
100 Infantry Knights
300 Mounted Knights
Opinion of You: 70%
Chapterhouse Location: Wulfenburg
Principal Deity: Secular
Recruitment Policy: Noble Blooded Men Of The North Only

Sons of Manann
1 Commodore Lars Gildemeister
10 Warrior Priests of Manann
25 Stormbreakers [Inner Circle]
500 Sea-Faring Knights
500 Mounted Knights
Opinion of You: 80%
Chapterhouse Location: Salkalten
Principal Deity: Manann
Recruitment Policy: All Men, Noble or Common.

The Longshanks
Pack Leader Oskar Hirschherz
250 To 500 Longshanks
Opinion of You: 65%
Chapterhouse Location: N/A
Principal Deity: Taal
Recruitment Policy: Secret Tests of Taal

The differences between the two lists

The Bull Warriors (Recruitment Policy: All Men, Noble or Common, of Ostland)
200 Infantry Knights --> 300 Infantry Knights : difference over about a decade (+100 Infantry Knights)
100 Mounted Knights --> 250 Mounted Knights : difference over about a decade (+150 Mounted Knights)
250 Bowmen-At-Arms --> 350 Bowmen-At-Arms : difference over about a decade (+150 Bowmen-At-Arms)
100 Crossbow-Men-At-Arms --> 400 Crossbow-Men-At-Arms : difference over about a decade (+300 Crossbow-Men-At-Arms)
2 Attached Shallyan Priestesses --> 7 Attached Shallyan Priestesses : difference over about a decade (+5 Attached Shallyan Priestesses)

Knights of The White Wolf (Recruitment Policy: All Men, Noble or Common)
300 Mounted White Wolf Knights --> 265 Mounted White Wolf Knights : difference over about a decade (-35 Mounted White Wolf Knights)
Opinion Of You: 85% --> Opinion Of You: 90% : difference over about a decade (+5% Opinion of You)

Knights of Morr/Black Guard of Morr (Recruitment Policy: Secret Tests)
750 Infantry Knights --> 600 Infantry Knights : difference over about a decade (-100 Infantry Knights)

Knights Raven (Recruitment Policy: Secret Tests)
No Change

Knights of the North Star (Recruitment Policy: Noble Blooded Men Of The North Only)
200 Infantry Knights --> 100 Infantry Knights : difference over about a decade (-100 Infantry Knights)
500 Mounted Knights --> 300 Mounted Knights : difference over about a decade (-200 Mounted Knights)
Opinion of You: 64% --> Opinion of You: 70% : difference over about a decade (+6% Opinion of You)

Sons of Manann (Recruitment Policy: All Men, Noble or Common.)
1 Company Commander Lars Gildemeister --> 1 Commodore Lars Gildemeister : difference over about a decade ()
Opinion of You: 81% --> Opinion of You: 80% : difference over about a decade (-1% Opinion of You)

The Longshanks Knightly Order was added to Ostland in "2337 Interlude: The Invention of Vaporware". Turn 33 is 2337 IC. Longshanks have been in Ostland for around 6 years. Longshanks Recruitment Policy: Secret Tests of Taal.

Note: My Net Income number was wrong.
25925(Current Front Page Total Income)-11556(Current Front Page Total Expenditures)=14369 (Net Income) not 13,869 (Current Front Page Net Income). My Bad. I didn't recognize numbers go different because Total Income and Expenditures confused me. The economy numbers look right to me. Only the Net Income is currently off. Good thing you didn't do the -1500 removal from Averland deliveries.
 
I just wanna say that rereading the discussion it's kind of amazing how fast the thread went from

"Flagellants are a blight and a mistake to use them would damn our morals and our reputation."

to

"We could have been using them THE WHOLE TIME?! why didn't anyone tell us? That's 40 years of technological advancements they've missed out on! Quick, Anna get us 50cc of steampunk Stat!"

That said :
[X] Plan: Defence in Depth + Allow
 
I think at the start there were something like 2k Bull Warriors (all Infantry Knights), and their whole thing was being an extremely numerous Knightly Order, so much so that it was listed as one of Ostland's initial advantages.

Then they lost over half their numbers at (IIRC) Salkalten and never recovered since (or they might have, but then got basically wiped out during the Vampire War and we had to rebuild them from scratch.)

But if we survive all this, some sort of Martial Action or overall program to rebuild the Bull Warriors to their former numbers/glory would be pretty fun.
 
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I don't see why, using suicide bombers while tasteful to our RL morals and sad in quest seems like something to chat with GT about before assuming it will be seen negatively since this is same guy who turned a troubled young women into a holy weapon after all.
What're you going to do if he's all for it though? :V

Anyway, maybe this particular Grand Theogonist isn't the best source or advice for morality. Given that Evangeline apparently has a beef over him due to that, and Evangeline herself seems like a pretty good and just person and is seen as pretty good and just, maybe she's on to something about that.

I mean, there hasn't been much but hints and suggestions about what the whole thing with Regina and what the GT is trying and testing is, but it sounds shifty or morally dubious or disturbing at best, in some way.


As for why to do penance, or why to feel bad, or be disturbed, or try to make amends, or try to alleviate or affect public perception after the war or etc?

It could also be because Frederick himself feels bad about enabling and providing backing to suicidal fanatics. That, when he looks at Flagellants, he'd rather be thinking "What a waste" or "How could I help them? Or, how could I prevent more Flagellants happening?" rather than thinking thoughts like "How can I make their suicides more effective?"

I feel like there is a strong line between looking at war and going "These are how I will move some of my troops, and how I will try to best spend their lives accomplishing these objectives and keeping us safe", versus looking at... frankly, non-military troops but rather just the broken down and insane and fanatics, who just happen to blob up into mobs and wander over into battlefields.

I feel like people who wage war, and think about how best not to waste their troops lives, how best to spend them... still come from a place of, well, caring? It's not just about numbers and tactics and strategies for them; even if they work with numbers and tactics and deploy tactics and numbers. That's just the sort of person that, well, that people are. They care. They approach war in a certain way.
Some people are different and don't care as much. Some people are paranoid. Some people are control freaks. And all that gets put into the history and traditions of a province or military or knightly order. But. All of that gets put in and remembered. Those people get remembered as good or bad, callous or caring. And people pass judgment on all that. (Or it gets warped in how it is remembered, and people take up more callous methods and think that's just normal or how things ought to be, or so on.)

Anyway. If you're doing something that you are disturbed by, and if you're taking desperate measures in desperate situation, maybe it's also reasonable to -- after it is all over -- to go "Man, I hate that that happened and that I did that, and I feel like I should maybe do something about that? About what I did and how I felt about that."

Some people don't care and are just taking the track of "Well, this is just a more efficient usage of Flagellants, no big deal." Others are more disturbed by the idea. Either because of external morals, or because of in-universe reactions and context (i.e. how Freddy and Natasha and everybody reacted), or so on. Other people are more ambivalent. Or hold other opinions. Or no real strong opinion one way or another.
We must give up drinking for a year. all show now of our sins and how heavy they weigh on us.
That... might actually count as a good sacrifice for Frederick? For somebody who is as heavy a drinker, by Ostland standards even, as he is. (And who also has access to the best alcohols too, so it's not just somebody who drinks a lot of whatever is at hand.)
But there's also sacrifice of destruction. Sigmar loves it when you sacrifice lots of orc heads to him by destroying them. Or do a Quest for Sigmar.
Huh. Well, there's a hell of a lot of Druchii -- and Beastmen -- that we will be able to sacrifice to Sigmar. Would that count, would that help?
Or do a Quest for Sigmar.
... A quest for Sigmar?

Is that a thing?

What exactly does that entail? Sigmar does/gives quests? Can you elaborate more, torroar? (Or was this just an offhanded mention and one-line thing, rather than signifying anything bigger or more culturally/religiously relevant?)
One of the career exits for the Flagellant career path was Priest, so maybe all that crazy wasn't so crazy, and it turns out they really can call upon the Divine Lore and bring down burning holy comets onto the heads of their enemies, and things like that.
Aha, I thought I had remembered that the Flagellant career had an exit path! ((Mostly via remembering somebody making a build or discussing a build, and mentioning that the Flagellant career can be a way to get immunity to psychology or to fear or to... something, it was something. I think that that implied that that was a pretty fucked up career. Maybe the sewer jack Skaven-hunter careers sometimes got them too? In which case, that just went how bad those experiences can be.))
 
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I think at the start there were something like 2k Bull Warriors (all Infantry Knights), and their whole thing was being an extremely numerous Knightly Order, so much so that it was listed as one of Ostland's initial advantages.

Then they lost over half their numbers at (IIRC) Salkalten and never recovered since (or they might have, but then got basically wiped out during the Vampire War and we had to rebuild them from scratch.)

But if we survive all this, some sort of Martial Action or overall program to rebuild the Bull Warriors to their former numbers/glory would be pretty fun.
It was about 2K I think, or 3K, and the Vampire War was what destroyed them.
 
In fairness, the pagan Norse were convinced the berserkers carried divine favour and were blessed with supernatural strength, or even straight up possession and shape shifting; hence their strange nature, and their being tolerated and even courted for favour despite that (since everyone wants someone who fights so savagely Odin nods along on their side, and not the other).

But literal freezing auras and manifesting ice weapons would probably mean Christianity never makes it through North Europe, to be honest, since 'this person is ridiculously tough' is not a miracle on the scale of 'screw you, let me manifest my spirit weapon'.

That's kinda what I'm saying. The religious crazies occasionally get actual, verifiable, recorded, repeated, known stuff going for them in Warhammer. Flagellants included. For 2,300 years of history. Like, if Christianity tried going through North Europe, and you had Norse priests call down giant spectral cold wolves that carved huge swathes through troops, but then the Christians raised their staffs and suddenly columns of healing light came from the cloudless sky to restore the broken bodies of their guards/troops/knights/templars/etc.

And, again, everyone knew this was just a thing. Not necessarily a regular, overly common thing, as even in Warhammer it is a repeated notion that not every priest actually is capable of calling upon the Divine Lore.

A single instance of such stuff would be an absolutely incredible miracle/event that would be pored over by IRL theologians and historians for, like, ever. But in Warhammer, that's just a thing that happens on the battlefield that Warrior Priests are on.

Note: My Net Income number was wrong.

I'll fix it again, then, no worries! As for the Knightly Orders, mmm...we'll see. I'm pretty sure I've been having them run as background recruiting to make up for losses sort of stuff like the Armies do when in passive mode for turn-by-turn processes.

... A quest for Sigmar?

Is that a thing?

What exactly does that entail? Sigmar does/gives quests? Can you elaborate more, torroar? (Or was this just an offhanded mention and one-line thing, rather than signifying anything bigger or more culturally/religiously relevant?)

S'offhand in the Tome of Salvation, but I'd assume that bereft of Sigmar personally sending a vision into your head that you'd go to your local Sigmarite High Priest and beg for a quest you could do to redeem yourself in Sigmar's eyes.

Which could then be to, I dunno, kill a shit ton of orcs personally, or maybe shore up Sigmar's position by shoving some Ulricans off a holy place, or something like that. Or you could go to the Grand Theogonist himself! He'd probably have some requests you could try to fulfill...
 
But also, in Warhammer, they genuinely sometimes get divine favor going for them. It's literally mechanically baked in. Priests and Flagellants who mutilate themselves, who brand themselves, get boosts to their casting rolls of their Divine Lores. There's stuff like Fate and Fortune Points, which can blatantly save you from death through literal divine intervention. It is not impossible for a Flagellant to suddenly become enveloped in a burning aura of golden soulfire that scorches the unclean but leaves the devotees of the Empire untouched. Sometimes, the Gods really are speaking in their heads. One of the career exits for the Flagellant career path was Priest, so maybe all that crazy wasn't so crazy, and it turns out they really can call upon the Divine Lore and bring down burning holy comets onto the heads of their enemies, and things like that.

So as were only using the bombs on some I assume those that are being picked for this are so crippled that they couldn't fight even if given training and equipment?

Meanwhile those that aren't completely batshit crazy and are mostly intact are getting a few months of training with basic weapons and armor?
 
Look on the cold and calculating argument against it.
Explosive discs are more expensive than flagelants, and maybe giving an finicky device that explode with pressure to sucidal zelots is asking for disaster and Ana is overestimating people average inteligence.
 
Look on the cold and calculating argument against it.
Explosive discs are more expensive than flagelants, and maybe giving an finicky device that explode with pressure to sucidal zelots is asking for disaster and Ana is overestimating people average inteligence.
That's not much of an argument given they generally won't be anywhere near anyone or anything that actually matters. The worst they'd do is take each other out, but they were going to be dying in droves anyway so it's not a massive loss.
 
Meanwhile those that aren't completely batshit crazy and are mostly intact are getting a few months of training with basic weapons and armor?
Flagelants are all badshit crazy if they could be saved they would count as millita. Or something the main issue is that we kinda do not have much to spare half assing training of a bunch of lunatics.

That's not much of an argument given they generally won't be anywhere near anyone or anything that actually matters. The worst they'd do is take each other out, but they were going to be dying in droves anyway so it's not a massive loss.
You missing the main point, the bombs are expesive to waste away and could be used to an better effect elsewhere with a more effective payload delivery sistem, hell even as ammo for bird bombers.
 
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